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Post by String on Apr 12, 2016 21:16:41 GMT -5
So the whole idea doesn't make any sense and demonstrates once again that all too often the writers who tackle the New Gods either don't have the least understanding of the basic concept or just don't give a shit. In either case, why, as an admirer of Kirby's original, would I want to bother reading their stuff? While on the one hand, I think your opinion is a valid one and representative of the overall genius of Kirby. But comics is all about ever-changing conceptions and perceptions. After the departure of Kirby, DC had to continue on with these characters and concepts and I don't expect other creators to be able to step up to fill Kirby's Celestial-sized boots. The closest I've ever heard of anyone doing such with the Fourth World was Simonson's short-lived Orion series. So while I cannot fault you for any frustration you may feel over other creators and editors not fully understanding the deeper nuances of Kirby's progressive work, I also cannot fault them for their continual usage. For example, Dido and Giffen's short-lived Infinity Man and the Forever People title. While it may have tried to update and 'modernize' the concept for the Nu52, I thought if nothing else, they were able to incorporate some of the original spirit of the Fourth World concepts. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 12, 2016 22:25:13 GMT -5
I've completely turned around on the Fourth World characters (except for Big Barda; I've thought she was great for a long time). You watched her porno, didn't you? I wish I was half as clever as John Byrne thinks he is. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 12, 2016 23:06:24 GMT -5
So the whole idea doesn't make any sense and demonstrates once again that all too often the writers who tackle the New Gods either don't have the least understanding of the basic concept or just don't give a shit. In either case, why, as an admirer of Kirby's original, would I want to bother reading their stuff? While on the one hand, I think your opinion is a valid one and representative of the overall genius of Kirby. But comics is all about ever-changing conceptions and perceptions. After the departure of Kirby, DC had to continue on with these characters and concepts and I don't expect other creators to be able to step up to fill Kirby's Celestial-sized boots. The closest I've ever heard of anyone doing such with the Fourth World was Simonson's short-lived Orion series. So while I cannot fault you for any frustration you may feel over other creators and editors not fully understanding the deeper nuances of Kirby's progressive work, I also cannot fault them for their continual usage. For example, Dido and Giffen's short-lived Infinity Man and the Forever People title. While it may have tried to update and 'modernize' the concept for the Nu52, I thought if nothing else, they were able to incorporate some of the original spirit of the Fourth World concepts. I agree that Walt Simonson's Orion was one of the very few worthwhile attempts by another writer at doing something with Kirby's Fourth World. But you can see the difference between that series and most of the other stuff: you can see that Simonson put a lot of thought into what it was all about. I don't see that in most cases. Most of the time when I see what they're doing I wonder if they've even bothered to read the original series. Part of the problem is that most comics writers of the Geoff Johns type are mainly interested in writing Superman and the JLA. They're not interested in the New Gods, they probably don't read the original or, if they do read it, don't understand it because it's so different from the superhero comics they're mainly concerned with. Not to pick on DC exclusively. Marvel's track record with the Eternals is even worse, if anything. |
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Post by String on Apr 13, 2016 19:42:43 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that most comics writers of the Geoff Johns type are mainly interested in writing Superman and the JLA. They're not interested in the New Gods, they probably don't read the original or, if they do read it, don't understand it because it's so different from the superhero comics they're mainly concerned with. I think that slim interest has become even more one-sided over the decades, focused more heavily on Darkseid and Apokolips almost to the exclusion of Highfather and the rest on New Genesis. And I would agree with you on Marvel's handling of the Eternals. I would much rather see them and read of them more than their recent push on all things Inhuman for instance. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 13, 2016 22:09:17 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that most comics writers of the Geoff Johns type are mainly interested in writing Superman and the JLA. They're not interested in the New Gods, they probably don't read the original or, if they do read it, don't understand it because it's so different from the superhero comics they're mainly concerned with. I think that slim interest has become even more one-sided over the decades, focused more heavily on Darkseid and Apokolips almost to the exclusion of Highfather and the rest on New Genesis. And I would agree with you on Marvel's handling of the Eternals. I would much rather see them and read of them more than their recent push on all things Inhuman for instance. Yes. They like Darkseid as a big, scary villain for Superman et al and that's basically what the entire Fourth World concept means to them. They don't really need the rest of it, apart from Apocalips and a few colourful henchmen as part of Darkseid's background. The New Genesis gods are actually in the way, from their POV, because they want Darkseid's antagonists to be Superman and Batman or whoever, rather than Highfather or Orion. I haven't read any of the recent Darkseid War comics, but from what I hear of it they've taken this attitude to one of its logical conclusions: explicitly replacing the New Gods with the DCU superheroes they love, Batman a substitute for Metron, etc. I love the Inhumans but don't feel interested in their current version as something more like the MU mutants than the unique, separate culture I'm used to. Might read the Ellis Karnak when it's collected, though. I'd love to see a genuine attempt at an Eternals series based on the ideas and characters developed in Kirby's original, but that's never going to happen. The sad thing is, Marvel has never been able to figure out what to do with them because they so obviously don't work within the MU mythology that's accumulated over the years. And there isn't even a Darkseid equivalent to give them a good bad guy for the Avengers or whoever. Yet, allowing a writer the freedom to treat it as the independent concept it is, unconnected to the MU, appears to be out of the question. For some reason Marvel seems incapable of thinking outside the MU box, at least when it comes to the Eternals. |
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Post by hondobrode on Apr 13, 2016 23:28:50 GMT -5
Even more so after Disney bought them, it won't happen, though I'm surprised you don't think Thanos would work as a Darkseid substitute.
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Post by berkley on Apr 14, 2016 12:40:29 GMT -5
That's exaxctly what he is, of course, but Thanos is a Starlin creation and has nothing to do with Kirby's Eternals, even though Marvel has tried to connect them by saying Starlin's Titanians were an offshoot of the Eternals of earth.
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 14, 2016 13:38:23 GMT -5
Here's my current pull list: DEFINITE:Detective Comics - When I'm buying new comics, I always have Detective Comics on the pull list. That's been true since the beginning of Knightfall. I'm not too keen on the current storyline but I really liked #41 to #44, and that wasn't too long ago. Wonder Woman - I feel almost as strongly about Wonder Woman. And it's pretty good right now. I've picked up #47 to #50 and they've all been pretty good. Black Widow - The first two issues of the new series have been great! ANd I really love the idea of reading the monthly adventures of one of my favorite characters, someone I've adored since the 1970s when she was the co-star in Daredevil and the leader of the Champions. (Remember the Champions? I didn't cry when it was canceled but I wouldn't be embarrassed if I had.) ON PROBATION:Batgirl - I liked #49 and #50 well enough. I still don't like Black Canary's white hair. But there's a large cast that includes the Spoiler! Yay! And one of the villains in #50 was the Velvet Tiger! Catwoman - Of the recent issues, I've only read #50, and I liked it a lot despite the stupid fight scene with Poison Ivy taking out Clayface in one panel. We'll see what happens next. Captain Marvel - Carol is the top security officer at a space station. Alpha Flight is her supporting cast. I'm actually seriously underwhelmed by the basic premise but I picked it up because I liked the 2012 Captain Marvel series and I'm going to give it a chance through the first storyline. Squadron Supreme - I bought the first four issues and I'm not feeling it. I'm sticking with it because I like to have complete storylines and I'm also hoping they do something interesting with Thundra. I've been pretty disappointed so far. There are just too many characters. I love this variant cover. I'd like to have it as a poster. |
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Post by Action Ace on Apr 14, 2016 14:57:51 GMT -5
Here's my current pull list: DEFINITE:Detective Comics - When I'm buying new comics, I always have Detective Comics on the pull list. That's been true since the beginning of Knightfall. I'm not too keen on the current storyline but I really liked #41 to #44, and that wasn't too long ago. Wonder Woman - I feel almost as strongly about Wonder Woman. And it's pretty good right now. I've picked up #47 to #50 and they've all been pretty good. Black Widow - The first two issues of the new series have been great! ANd I really love the idea of reading the monthly adventures of one of my favorite characters, someone I've adored since the 1970s when she was the co-star in Daredevil and the leader of the Champions. (Remember the Champions? I didn't cry when it was canceled but I wouldn't be embarrassed if I had.) ON PROBATION:Batgirl - I liked #49 and #50 well enough. I still don't like Black Canary's white hair. But there's a large cast that includes the Spoiler! Yay! And one of the villains in #50 was the Velvet Tiger! Catwoman - Of the recent issues, I've only read #50, and I liked it a lot despite the stupid fight scene with Poison Ivy taking out Clayface in one panel. We'll see what happens next. Captain Marvel - Carol is the top security officer at a space station. Alpha Flight is her supporting cast. I'm actually seriously underwhelmed by the basic premise but I picked it up because I liked the 2012 Captain Marvel series and I'm going to give it a chance through the first storyline. Squadron Supreme - I bought the first four issues and I'm not feeling it. I'm sticking with it because I like to have complete storylines and I'm also hoping they do something interesting with Thundra. I've been pretty disappointed so far. There are just too many characters. I love this variant cover. I'd like to have it as a poster. What's next for Catwoman is... the series ending. Batgirl will have her own comic and one with the Birds of Prey in the summer. Detective Comics will morph into Batman Family. Don't forget to save a spot for the upcoming Kamandi Challenge. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 14, 2016 16:37:49 GMT -5
It appears that, yes, Catwoman is ending with #52.
And Detective Comics is going back to its original numbering! The issue after #52 will be #934!
I found this out at DC's Web site but I couldn't figure it out well enough to find out exactly what's going on with Batgirl, so I'll take Ace's word for it. Are they starting over with a new Batgirl #1?
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Post by Action Ace on Apr 14, 2016 18:44:53 GMT -5
It appears that, yes, Catwoman is ending with #52. And Detective Comics is going back to its original numbering! The issue after #52 will be #934! I found this out at DC's Web site but I couldn't figure it out well enough to find out exactly what's going on with Batgirl, so I'll take Ace's word for it. Are they starting over with a new Batgirl #1? Here's the online version of the DC Rebirth Previews catalog that came out yesterday. REBIRTH!The Batgirl info is on pages 28 & 29. |
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Post by String on Apr 15, 2016 17:59:31 GMT -5
Well, you helped convinced me Hoosier.
After watching BvS, the wife wants to start reading WW again (as well as myself). So I'm gonna order her first New52 trade and start catching up while awaiting for Rucka's arrival on the title.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 23, 2016 12:58:34 GMT -5
So... Civil war II. Another hero vs hero event. Another comic-book that seems to exist to take advantage of a movie's visibility. Another major character dies to give that event relevance, and we know that it's only a matter of time before they're back.
*Sigh*. The House of No More Ideas strikes again.
There is a way to make exciting comics that will sell without always using the same tired formula, I'd think. Everybody but the Big Two are doing it after all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 13:43:59 GMT -5
So... Civil war II. Another hero vs hero event. Another comic-book that seems to exist to take advantage of a movie's visibility. Another major character dies to give that event relevance, and we know that it's only a matter of time before they're back. *Sigh*. The House of No More Ideas strikes again. There is a way to make exciting comics that will sell without always using the same tired formula, I'd think. Everybody but the Big Two are doing it after all. They have to play to their niche audience that is the core of their publishing business. Until such a time as these types of books stop outselling the regular titles, they will continue to get made and have a central place in their publishing plan. Complain as much as we do, those who are buying these are voting with their wallets and its much louder than those who complain about them. As long as these series break the top 10 in Diamond sales every time they put one out, they will continue to do them. And since their obligation is to their shareholders, I can't blame them for doing what sells even though I have no interest in buying or reading it. They are the messenger in this case, if people didn't demand this through continued sales, the message would change. One of these days, one of these books will fail and we'll start to see something different (at least I hope so, but comic fans are creatures of habit and buy what they don't like to maintain runs or follow universes o get the stories that "matter" and as long as they continue to do so, this is what we will get. -M |
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 23, 2016 14:32:22 GMT -5
They have to play to their niche audience that is the core of their publishing business. Until such a time as these types of books stop outselling the regular titles, they will continue to get made and have a central place in their publishing plan. Complain as much as we do, those who are buying these are voting with their wallets and its much louder than those who complain about them. As long as these series break the top 10 in Diamond sales every time they put one out, they will continue to do them. And since their obligation is to their shareholders, I can't blame them for doing what sells even though I have no interest in buying or reading it. They are the messenger in this case, if people didn't demand this through continued sales, the message would change. One of these days, one of these books will fail and we'll start to see something different (at least I hope so, but comic fans are creatures of habit and buy what they don't like to maintain runs or follow universes o get the stories that "matter" and as long as they continue to do so, this is what we will get. Very well said, though I'm inclined to believe that it's more like Marvel is still trying to find that delicate balance between niche and causal that's really rather hard to nail down, especially when they're also trying to advertise for the movie. Same goes for DC I think that a lot of people, especially newcomers, are starting to view cape-books as kind of the red-headed elephant in the room; the by-product of a by-gone era where people desperately needed a form of escapism in trying times. Even Image seems embarrassed to still be publishing Spawn and Savage Dragon. In short, I'm of the belief that people think the superhero is a passe' trope in of itself and that we need characters more grounded in reality than fantasy, as to be more easier to relate to |
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