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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 7, 2016 9:16:25 GMT -5
There's a thousand year old fictional mutant overlord with god like powers attacking a blue mutant gal that can assume the form of any living creature just doesn't register on any of my meters of importance. I'm pretty sure that's exactly the kind of thing that the people who some like to sneeringly dismiss as 'Social Justice Warriors' mean when they talk about privilege. We're guys. We have the luxury of being able to explain this away, or dismiss it as unimportant. Other people have to live with these kinds of images as the background radiation of their lives. And like any radiation, once it builds to a certain point it becomes toxic and can't be ignored any more. This is what I'll say Spike, since I don't want to come off ignoring your response. Assuming that all men that may not find this particular image offensive have also not in some way had violence done to them or someone close to them is a not a good argument. Unfortunately, both sides can get carried away and generalize, so I will attempt not to. And apologize if I did.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 11:01:09 GMT -5
I find myself siding with those who are saying that we don't really get to decide what other people should and shouldn't find offensive, no matter how silly it might seem. Reminds me of a great photo we received here at the office of one of our planes flying in front of the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Carving. My co-workers thought it would make a great cover for our annual financial report, but I advised them that that might not be the smartest possible move for an organization that's trying to attract more black members. Neither of them could really fathom what I was saying, but in the end they surrendered to what I'm sure was SJW-ish alarmism.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 7, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -5
I find myself siding with those who are saying that we don't really get to decide what other people should and shouldn't find offensive, no matter how silly it might seem. We don't get to decide it, that's for sure, but there must be limits to how much importance we give to this or that grievance. There has to be a point at which we agree to diasgree. Otherwise we might as well put an end to this "society" thing and live in a cave, far away from everyone else (and far, far away from anything resembling garlic if I have my druthers). Symbols like the Confederate flag are obvious contention points, even if in and of themselves they might be seen as pretty innocuous by certain people. It's no good arguing that the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol of good fortune or that the *n* word simply means "black". Such symbols and words have acquired new meanings that nowadays trump any previous and less offending ones. I don't think anyone would dispute that their use must be considered more carefully than, say, the use of the word "damn" in public. That being said, and hoping that we can all refrain from willfully offending our neighbours, there is a point at which we must say "this is silly". There will never be a universal clear line between what is offending and what isn't, because that line will vary according to the individuals considered. But accepting that some things seen as mundane by many will offend us personally, and realizing that the right to never be offended doesn't exist, will allow us to live with others without being constantly upset. If we feel really strongly about a point, we can try to educate those around us. If we are in the right, eventually our view will become the norm; that's how society progresses. The discussion must be held before we decide that "X must be banned because Y is offended", however.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 7, 2016 15:23:50 GMT -5
I find myself siding with those who are saying that we don't really get to decide what other people should and shouldn't find offensive, no matter how silly it might seem. That being said, and hoping that we can all refrain from willfully offending our neighbours, there is a point at which we must say "this is silly". There will never be a universal clear line between what is offending and what isn't, because that line will vary according to the individuals considered. But accepting that some things seen as mundane by many will offend us personally, and realizing that the right to never be offended doesn't exist, will allow us to live with others without being constantly upset. If we feel really strongly about a point, we can try to educate those around us. If we are in the right, eventually our view will become the norm; that's how society progresses. The discussion must be held before we decide that "X must be banned because Y is offended", however. And this is really the crux of the matter for me. There used to be something called common courtesy. We teach our children that they don't need to spout every piece of stupidity that crosses their mind because it isn't polite. Remember "Mama says, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." But now, suddenly, an expectation of politeness and common courtesy is "Political Correctness gone amuck." "Everyone is stomping on my right to spout every stupid offensive thing that crosses my pea-brain." "Look at me...I'm being oppressed by the P.C. Police."n Or...y'know...you could be acting like a toddler.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 7, 2016 16:03:16 GMT -5
I find myself siding with those who are saying that we don't really get to decide what other people should and shouldn't find offensive, no matter how silly it might seem. We don't get to decide it, that's for sure, but there must be limits to how much importance we give to this or that grievance. There has to be a point at which we agree to diasgree. Otherwise we might as well put an end to this "society" thing and live in a cave, far away from everyone else (and far, far away from anything resembling garlic if I have my druthers). Symbols like the Confederate flag are obvious contention points, even if in and of themselves they might be seen as pretty innocuous by certain people. It's no good arguing that the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol of good fortune or that the *n* word simply means "black". Such symbols and words have acquired new meanings that nowadays trump any previous and less offending ones. I don't think anyone would dispute that their use must be considered more carefully than, say, the use of the word "damn" in public. That being said, and hoping that we can all refrain from willfully offending our neighbours, there is a point at which we must say "this is silly". There will never be a universal clear line between what is offending and what isn't, because that line will vary according to the individuals considered. But accepting that some things seen as mundane by many will offend us personally, and realizing that the right to never be offended doesn't exist, will allow us to live with others without being constantly upset. If we feel really strongly about a point, we can try to educate those around us. If we are in the right, eventually our view will become the norm; that's how society progresses. The discussion must be held before we decide that "X must be banned because Y is offended", however. You've summed up many of my feelings almost perfectly here. It's impossible to know what will offend every reasonable person, so it can be difficult to know how to proceed in everyday life. What might be perfectly harmless to 99.44% of the population might be the very thing that sets that remaining .56% into a rage, but I can't possibly know who is in that tiny minority without foreknowledge, which we unfortunately don't have. Almost anything today can trigger offense or trauma in someone, and that is OK until they begin pushing the issue too far. For example, I might write something on a message board that is perfectly innocent, something like "I thought the last episode of Game of Thrones was great! A lot of excellent action!" On the surface, nothing wrong with that. However, maybe one of the scenes in the show depicted the beating and rape of a female character, which happens fairly often on the show (one of my few complaints about it, along with the persistent use of a certain vulgar term for female genitalia), or the killing of a gay character when he is found out. Someone else on that message board, maybe a woman who has survived rape or a gay man, sees what I wrote and comes back at me asking if I enjoy seeing women brutalized or if I feel that should be how all gays are treated. I ignore it, but then another person joins in, and another, and another, and all of a sudden, I'm painted as some sort of monster because I didn't feel the need to explain myself. Not a big deal, you say; it's just an internet message board. Maybe, but what if someone finds out my real name, maybe through Facebook or another social media source? They could easily track down my phone number, e-mail address, LinkedIn profile, employer, business address, home address, etc. Now all of a sudden, I'm involved in a real-world situation simply because I liked last night's Game of Thrones. These types of things happen all the time, such as the dentist who shot that lion in Africa or others who post pictures of their hunting trophies online. Animal rights activists go after them with unrestrained fervor, all because they were offended by something that person did. Should a person have his business boycotted or his family and his own life threatened because he happens to like to hunt, even if it is in poor taste to some? The internet allows a mob mentality greater than any that was ever possible before, and sadly, some people use it to exact vengeance in terrible ways that go far beyond normal all because they didn't like what someone else did or said or posted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 16:50:28 GMT -5
We don't get to decide it, that's for sure, but there must be limits to how much importance we give to this or that grievance. There has to be a point at which we agree to diasgree. Otherwise we might as well put an end to this "society" thing and live in a cave, far away from everyone else (and far, far away from anything resembling garlic if I have my druthers). Symbols like the Confederate flag are obvious contention points, even if in and of themselves they might be seen as pretty innocuous by certain people. It's no good arguing that the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol of good fortune or that the *n* word simply means "black". Such symbols and words have acquired new meanings that nowadays trump any previous and less offending ones. I don't think anyone would dispute that their use must be considered more carefully than, say, the use of the word "damn" in public. That being said, and hoping that we can all refrain from willfully offending our neighbours, there is a point at which we must say "this is silly". There will never be a universal clear line between what is offending and what isn't, because that line will vary according to the individuals considered. But accepting that some things seen as mundane by many will offend us personally, and realizing that the right to never be offended doesn't exist, will allow us to live with others without being constantly upset. If we feel really strongly about a point, we can try to educate those around us. If we are in the right, eventually our view will become the norm; that's how society progresses. The discussion must be held before we decide that "X must be banned because Y is offended", however. You've summed up many of my feelings almost perfectly here. It's impossible to know what will offend every reasonable person, so it can be difficult to know how to proceed in everyday life. What might be perfectly harmless to 99.44% of the population might be the very thing that sets that remaining .56% into a rage, but I can't possibly know who is in that tiny minority without foreknowledge, which we unfortunately don't have. Almost anything today can trigger offense or trauma in someone, and that is OK until they begin pushing the issue too far. For example, I might write something on a message board that is perfectly innocent, something like "I thought the last episode of Game of Thrones was great! A lot of excellent action!" On the surface, nothing wrong with that. However, maybe one of the scenes in the show depicted the beating and rape of a female character, which happens fairly often on the show (one of my few complaints about it, along with the persistent use of a certain vulgar term for female genitalia), or the killing of a gay character when he is found out. Someone else on that message board, maybe a woman who has survived rape or a gay man, sees what I wrote and comes back at me asking if I enjoy seeing women brutalized or if I feel that should be how all gays are treated. I ignore it, but then another person joins in, and another, and another, and all of a sudden, I'm painted as some sort of monster because I didn't feel the need to explain myself. Not a big deal, you say; it's just an internet message board. Maybe, but what if someone finds out my real name, maybe through Facebook or another social media source? They could easily track down my phone number, e-mail address, LinkedIn profile, employer, business address, home address, etc. Now all of a sudden, I'm involved in a real-world situation simply because I liked last night's Game of Thrones. These types of things happen all the time, such as the dentist who shot that lion in Africa or others who post pictures of their hunting trophies online. Animal rights activists go after them with unrestrained fervor, all because they were offended by something that person did. Should a person have his business boycotted or his family and his own life threatened because he happens to like to hunt, even if it is in poor taste to some? The internet allows a mob mentality greater than any that was ever possible before, and sadly, some people use it to exact vengeance in terrible ways that go far beyond normal all because they didn't like what someone else did or said or posted. Yes, in this case. Definitely. I'll say the same about the murderous lunatic who owns Jimmy John's restaurants & also about Trump's horrible sons (who of course should be ostracized for not setting daddy on fire in the first place). Terrible example. Try to do better. As it is, you might as well be wringing your hands because someone said impolite things about the Stanford rapist & his BFF judge.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 7, 2016 17:21:48 GMT -5
Re: Boycotts
I hated Hell -- er-- Home Depot already, but sometimes it was the last port in a storm.
Now that the CEO/founder/ownwer has come out in favor of Trump, I will be sure to sail past from now on.
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Post by Gene on Jun 7, 2016 17:27:14 GMT -5
Good idea for a thread. It's stirring up the activist parts of my brain.
This morning, I was reading an article discussing the use of violent protest to affect social change. In particular, it placed the recent outbursts of violence at Trump rallies with the context of Watts, Ferguson, Baltimore, the Stonewall riots, etc. Now obviously, violence should be avoided if at all possible, but I don't believe in blindly condemning any action until I at least try to understand why it happened. When any marginalized group feels like they're being threatened over a long enough period of time, they're going to stop accepting "just talk things out" as a viable plan. When looking at it from that direction it becomes a lot easier for me to see why violent protest happens so frequently throughout our history. It's hard to find any significant social change that wasn't founded at least partially on conflict.
I posted the article on my Facebook. Cue the usual suspects painting me as a hypocrite because I'm willing to emphasize with people fighting for justice but I criticize the "militia" men that march outside of mosques with AR-15 rifles because those are apparently equal causes.
Long story short: Racially motivated lack of empathy and arguments based on false equivalence make me SMDH.
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Post by Bronze Age Brian on Jun 7, 2016 21:09:22 GMT -5
Re: Boycotts I hated Hell -- er-- Home Depot already, but sometimes it was the last port in a storm. Now that the CEO/founder/ownwer has come out in favor of Trump, I will be sure to sail past from now on. Relevant:
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 7, 2016 23:47:28 GMT -5
We don't get to decide it, that's for sure, but there must be limits to how much importance we give to this or that grievance. There has to be a point at which we agree to diasgree. Otherwise we might as well put an end to this "society" thing and live in a cave, far away from everyone else (and far, far away from anything resembling garlic if I have my druthers). Symbols like the Confederate flag are obvious contention points, even if in and of themselves they might be seen as pretty innocuous by certain people. It's no good arguing that the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol of good fortune or that the *n* word simply means "black". Such symbols and words have acquired new meanings that nowadays trump any previous and less offending ones. I don't think anyone would dispute that their use must be considered more carefully than, say, the use of the word "damn" in public. That being said, and hoping that we can all refrain from willfully offending our neighbours, there is a point at which we must say "this is silly". There will never be a universal clear line between what is offending and what isn't, because that line will vary according to the individuals considered. But accepting that some things seen as mundane by many will offend us personally, and realizing that the right to never be offended doesn't exist, will allow us to live with others without being constantly upset. If we feel really strongly about a point, we can try to educate those around us. If we are in the right, eventually our view will become the norm; that's how society progresses. The discussion must be held before we decide that "X must be banned because Y is offended", however. You've summed up many of my feelings almost perfectly here. It's impossible to know what will offend every reasonable person, so it can be difficult to know how to proceed in everyday life. What might be perfectly harmless to 99.44% of the population might be the very thing that sets that remaining .56% into a rage, but I can't possibly know who is in that tiny minority without foreknowledge, which we unfortunately don't have. Almost anything today can trigger offense or trauma in someone, and that is OK until they begin pushing the issue too far. For example, I might write something on a message board that is perfectly innocent, something like "I thought the last episode of Game of Thrones was great! A lot of excellent action!" On the surface, nothing wrong with that. However, maybe one of the scenes in the show depicted the beating and rape of a female character, which happens fairly often on the show (one of my few complaints about it, along with the persistent use of a certain vulgar term for female genitalia), or the killing of a gay character when he is found out. Someone else on that message board, maybe a woman who has survived rape or a gay man, sees what I wrote and comes back at me asking if I enjoy seeing women brutalized or if I feel that should be how all gays are treated. I ignore it, but then another person joins in, and another, and another, and all of a sudden, I'm painted as some sort of monster because I didn't feel the need to explain myself. Not a big deal, you say; it's just an internet message board. Maybe, but what if someone finds out my real name, maybe through Facebook or another social media source? They could easily track down my phone number, e-mail address, LinkedIn profile, employer, business address, home address, etc. Now all of a sudden, I'm involved in a real-world situation simply because I liked last night's Game of Thrones. These types of things happen all the time, such as the dentist who shot that lion in Africa or others who post pictures of their hunting trophies online. Animal rights activists go after them with unrestrained fervor, all because they were offended by something that person did. Should a person have his business boycotted or his family and his own life threatened because he happens to like to hunt, even if it is in poor taste to some? The internet allows a mob mentality greater than any that was ever possible before, and sadly, some people use it to exact vengeance in terrible ways that go far beyond normal all because they didn't like what someone else did or said or posted. Life threatened...no. Clearly not. Business boycotted...sure. Why not? Isn't that, again, part of the All-American, All-Important Free Market that is the state religion of the U.S.A.? Why should people not vote with their pocket in an attempt to enact change?
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 8, 2016 0:11:26 GMT -5
You've summed up many of my feelings almost perfectly here. It's impossible to know what will offend every reasonable person, so it can be difficult to know how to proceed in everyday life. What might be perfectly harmless to 99.44% of the population might be the very thing that sets that remaining .56% into a rage, but I can't possibly know who is in that tiny minority without foreknowledge, which we unfortunately don't have. Almost anything today can trigger offense or trauma in someone, and that is OK until they begin pushing the issue too far. For example, I might write something on a message board that is perfectly innocent, something like "I thought the last episode of Game of Thrones was great! A lot of excellent action!" On the surface, nothing wrong with that. However, maybe one of the scenes in the show depicted the beating and rape of a female character, which happens fairly often on the show (one of my few complaints about it, along with the persistent use of a certain vulgar term for female genitalia), or the killing of a gay character when he is found out. Someone else on that message board, maybe a woman who has survived rape or a gay man, sees what I wrote and comes back at me asking if I enjoy seeing women brutalized or if I feel that should be how all gays are treated. I ignore it, but then another person joins in, and another, and another, and all of a sudden, I'm painted as some sort of monster because I didn't feel the need to explain myself. Not a big deal, you say; it's just an internet message board. Maybe, but what if someone finds out my real name, maybe through Facebook or another social media source? They could easily track down my phone number, e-mail address, LinkedIn profile, employer, business address, home address, etc. Now all of a sudden, I'm involved in a real-world situation simply because I liked last night's Game of Thrones. These types of things happen all the time, such as the dentist who shot that lion in Africa or others who post pictures of their hunting trophies online. Animal rights activists go after them with unrestrained fervor, all because they were offended by something that person did. Should a person have his business boycotted or his family and his own life threatened because he happens to like to hunt, even if it is in poor taste to some? The internet allows a mob mentality greater than any that was ever possible before, and sadly, some people use it to exact vengeance in terrible ways that go far beyond normal all because they didn't like what someone else did or said or posted. Life threatened...no. Clearly not. Business boycotted...sure. Why not? Isn't that, again, part of the All-American, All-Important Free Market that is the state religion of the U.S.A.? Why should people not vote with their pocket in an attempt to enact change? I've always been mystified by people who make such a big deal about how mean boycotts are. The alternative is to pass a law forcing consumers to patronize the homophobe bakery that won't cater gay weddings. FREEDOM!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 8, 2016 0:16:57 GMT -5
Life threatened...no. Clearly not. Business boycotted...sure. Why not? Isn't that, again, part of the All-American, All-Important Free Market that is the state religion of the U.S.A.? Why should people not vote with their pocket in an attempt to enact change? I've always been mystified by people who make such a big deal about how mean boycotts are. The alternative is to pass a law forcing consumers to patronize the homophobe bakery that won't cater gay weddings. FREEDOM! Because businesses are sacred in America. Especially corporations. And we must do nothing to upset them. Lest we lose our American way of life.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 8, 2016 6:24:43 GMT -5
You've summed up many of my feelings almost perfectly here. It's impossible to know what will offend every reasonable person, so it can be difficult to know how to proceed in everyday life. What might be perfectly harmless to 99.44% of the population might be the very thing that sets that remaining .56% into a rage, but I can't possibly know who is in that tiny minority without foreknowledge, which we unfortunately don't have. Almost anything today can trigger offense or trauma in someone, and that is OK until they begin pushing the issue too far. For example, I might write something on a message board that is perfectly innocent, something like "I thought the last episode of Game of Thrones was great! A lot of excellent action!" On the surface, nothing wrong with that. However, maybe one of the scenes in the show depicted the beating and rape of a female character, which happens fairly often on the show (one of my few complaints about it, along with the persistent use of a certain vulgar term for female genitalia), or the killing of a gay character when he is found out. Someone else on that message board, maybe a woman who has survived rape or a gay man, sees what I wrote and comes back at me asking if I enjoy seeing women brutalized or if I feel that should be how all gays are treated. I ignore it, but then another person joins in, and another, and another, and all of a sudden, I'm painted as some sort of monster because I didn't feel the need to explain myself. Not a big deal, you say; it's just an internet message board. Maybe, but what if someone finds out my real name, maybe through Facebook or another social media source? They could easily track down my phone number, e-mail address, LinkedIn profile, employer, business address, home address, etc. Now all of a sudden, I'm involved in a real-world situation simply because I liked last night's Game of Thrones. These types of things happen all the time, such as the dentist who shot that lion in Africa or others who post pictures of their hunting trophies online. Animal rights activists go after them with unrestrained fervor, all because they were offended by something that person did. Should a person have his business boycotted or his family and his own life threatened because he happens to like to hunt, even if it is in poor taste to some? The internet allows a mob mentality greater than any that was ever possible before, and sadly, some people use it to exact vengeance in terrible ways that go far beyond normal all because they didn't like what someone else did or said or posted. Life threatened...no. Clearly not. Business boycotted...sure. Why not? Isn't that, again, part of the All-American, All-Important Free Market that is the state religion of the U.S.A.? Why should people not vote with their pocket in an attempt to enact change? Fair point on the economic boycott, because no, we obviously cannot force individuals to frequent any establishment. I was thinking more of protesting at the place of business, which always has the opportunity for violence when two opposite sides meet and someone who is really passionate about their position goes too far.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 8:18:32 GMT -5
Life threatened...no. Clearly not. Business boycotted...sure. Why not? Isn't that, again, part of the All-American, All-Important Free Market that is the state religion of the U.S.A.? Why should people not vote with their pocket in an attempt to enact change? Fair point on the economic boycott, because no, we obviously cannot force individuals to frequent any establishment. I was thinking more of protesting at the place of business, which always has the opportunity for violence when two opposite sides meet and someone who is really passionate about their position goes too far. So ... no sit-ins in the '60s at segregated lunch counters? At some point, it seems to me, the fear of violence becomes extremely counter-productive (no pun intended). After all, the triumph of nonviolent protest, per Gandhi, King, etc., has always depended to a considerable degree on weakness -- including the tendency to respond violently -- by the people or entity being targeted. Simply boycotting, say, a whites-only Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro, N.C., wouldn't have had nearly the impact that showing up, being refused service & being mistreated by segregationist goons had.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 8, 2016 9:06:57 GMT -5
Fair point on the economic boycott, because no, we obviously cannot force individuals to frequent any establishment. I was thinking more of protesting at the place of business, which always has the opportunity for violence when two opposite sides meet and someone who is really passionate about their position goes too far. So ... no sit-ins in the '60s at segregated lunch counters? At some point, it seems to me, the fear of violence becomes extremely counter-productive (no pun intended). After all, the triumph of nonviolent protest, per Gandhi, King, etc., has always depended to a considerable degree on weakness -- including the tendency to respond violently -- by the people or entity being targeted. Simply boycotting, say, a whites-only Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro, N.C., wouldn't have had nearly the impact that showing up, being refused service & being mistreated by segregationist goons had. You're missing my point entirely. Going back to your previous reply, I was speaking specifically about the situation with the hunting dentist and other trophy hunters, not all protests. The situations you mentioned above were a social justice issue and were completely justified in order to affect change for a segment of the population that was being discriminated against, just as protests at courthouses in support of gay marriage were. Those are issues affecting the lives of citizens of the US, and discrimination, in any form, is always wrong. The one I mentioned was because some folks got really upset about an animal being killed, so they started making death threats against him as well as threatening to shut down his business because they didn't like something he did. In addition, your mentioning the Stanford rapist in response to a post I made about hunters worries me, as though you're suggesting that the legal act of shooting an animal is somehow equal with the heinous and criminal act of sexually assaulting an unconscious woman.
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