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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 28, 2016 10:25:56 GMT -5
That occurred to me, too. Considerably more than the EU, in fact, which is not a peacekeeping organisation. Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. Not sure about the CIA, but I wouldn't put it past them. Sneaky bastards, with a less than stellar track record.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 28, 2016 11:08:43 GMT -5
Resolution 239 from June 11th 1948, introduced by Senator Vandenberg changed the US constitution so that the US could form military alliances during peace time. Does that seem correct? NATO has certainly had an impact on peace in Europe and the world, but I'd argue that as it was a US military tool, it also caused a lot of friction, when the EU in its various forms was never a military tool, but one of trade intended to build bridges and keep peace between former enemies. OK, I see where the confusion comes from. It was a Senate resolution, that had the effect of law but was not an actual change to the Constitution. A resolution only requires the approval of the Senate (and maybe the House of Representatives, not sure about that) and being signed by the President. An amendment to the Constitution requires a nationwide referendum and approval by two thirds of the 50 states before it becomes part of the Constitution. And you're right, NATO is strictly and unquestionably a military alliance. As for it being a US military tool, there is some validity to that as well. When you're the 800 pound gorilla in the room, you frequently get your way, right or wrong. The Vandenberg Resolution did not change the U.S. Constitution. There's nothing in the Constitution that prohibits military alliances during peace time. The issue was that the NATO charter required immediate U.S. intervention in the case of a Soviet attack on Western Europe. This would have abrogated the Congressional power to declare war. The Vandenberg Resolution simply advised the President to proceed with negotiations for mutual defense pacts within the U.N. charter but outside the U.N. Security Council. As a resolution it was not binding law and in no way did it change the Constitution.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 28, 2016 11:17:05 GMT -5
From my point of view, I'm just perplexed. Leaving aside issues of xenophobia, I'm very perplexed by the economic view of the "Leave" camp. Everything I've seen indicates that 90% of economists, both inside and outside of Britain, have said that the best case scenario for Britain leaving the E.U. is that it will be BAD for Britain's economy. When the best case scenario is bad...one wonders if maybe you should look a different way.
On the other had we all know how persuasive a vast majority of climate scientists have been.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 11:34:21 GMT -5
But seriously, after claiming the vote wouldn't affect the UK that much, you now bear apocalyptic predictions about the UK-less EU... It really seems you have a personnal beef against it What? I never said that it wouldn't affect the UK - obviously it will profoundly affect us. I also think it will profoundly affect the EC. Do I have a personal beef against it - well, probably the same beef that a lot of Brits have: like the single market, ambivalent about free movement, dislike the political integration into a federal super-state.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 11:41:06 GMT -5
From my point of view, I'm just perplexed. Leaving aside issues of xenophobia, I'm very perplexed by the economic view of the "Leave" camp. Everything I've seen indicates that 90% of economists, both inside and outside of Britain, have said that the best case scenario for Britain leaving the E.U. is that it will be BAD for Britain's economy. When the best case scenario is bad...one wonders if maybe you should look a different way. On the other had we all know how persuasive a vast majority of climate scientists have been. The simple fact is that the Leave voters either didn't believe them or actively voted against "elitists" and the establishment. If you saw the barrage of disinformation and shameless lies that were spouted by the leave campaign and their supporters in the vested interests of the right wing populist press over here, you would understand why they might feel that way - the similarity to the climate change deniers and their oil-company backing is entirely comparable. The Remain campaign wasn't much better on their content, they were just wildly incompetent at getting their message across.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 28, 2016 11:47:23 GMT -5
That occurred to me, too. Considerably more than the EU, in fact, which is not a peacekeeping organisation. Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. I think this is an issue we are doomed to disagree on, sadly. Is this really a view of the EU that's widespread on the continent? It isn't here...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 28, 2016 12:18:02 GMT -5
That occurred to me, too. Considerably more than the EU, in fact, which is not a peacekeeping organisation. Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. I feel I must defend NATO a little, here. I agree that the EU as an ideal is meant to bring former enemies together and bind them in one family, making war between them highly unlikely. Its achievements in furthering peace are due to the integration of once-feuding societies, which is a good thing. NATO, meanwhile, also furthered peace in the world... by making an attack against one of its members a suicidal move. Different strategies, similar results. (However much I'd like to think that the relative peace we've observed since WWII is due to mankind finally growing up, I remain convinced that the single most important thing that kept us quiet is, paradoxically enough, nukes. When war is not an option, there can be no war, even if countries keep rattling their sabres). Comparing NATO's record to the EU's would probably fill many issues of Foreign Affairs. I agree that just by existing, NATO has at times caused tensions with the Soviet, and later Russian, blocks; at the same time, it has no imperialistic agenda and has been a strong moderating power in world politics. NATO also earned some bragging rights : the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and later Kosovo, were not resolved by Strasbourg nor Brussels (nor by the mostly-ineffectual UN, which were at the time paralyzed by China's and Russia's veto on the matter). Not that NATO or the EU need be better than the other at peace mongering; any organization that helps prevent new wars is to be lauded, certainly.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 28, 2016 12:35:57 GMT -5
Now I'm proud of us!!! A whole page of significant opinions and info shared with respect and aknowledgment of where we all come from in this discussion Now alright, I really thought the US constitution formely forbid this kind of military aliances during peace time. Think it comes from the time I was studying constituational law, the french one, mind you. Now doing some research about it, I struggle to find where I got this from, but I found a german and a french site and wiki pages stating that as well. It might probably be inaccurate, but do you feellow US friends have any idea where that misconception might come from?
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 28, 2016 12:47:27 GMT -5
Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. I think this is an issue we are doomed to disagree on, sadly. Is this really a view of the EU that's widespread on the continent? It isn't here... Well, I can speak for France and Sweden in some regard. Sweden genuinely hates NATO and hates that it was forced to be part of it. It's been well documented over here over the years how the CIA used it to trigger assasinations and build disruptive underground cells. Also, as Sweden is a social democrat (socialist!) country, it's been often subjected to very sneaky communication campaigns, as the CIA couldn't have one of the most peacefull and pleasent place in the world during the 50-80ies be a socialist one. Since Sweden joined NATO earlier this year, I know a few people who have actually moved away from Sweden as a political gesture. It may be extreme, but it exists. For France it's a much different affair, as the country was at its inception. But as much as it felt it was needed, France had US military bases for many many years, as did many countries in Europe. The problem is that the US stated they wanted Europe to handle their defense on their own, but still kept those bases, some with missiles targeted at Moscow (Turkey), which was very disruptive. So with France being run by the General De Gaulle, first elected president of the fifth republic, by 1966, we kind of left because as a great power, he felt we couldn't risk the constant spying and such. With the Eastern block that close, we needed to be really independant, and the EU was a great way to prove it. So yes, there is a general feel of mistrust with NATO in those countries. It's not very loud, but still underlying on a global scale. The way the yougoslavian civil war was handled by the US, the UN and France tells a lot abou the diverging philosophies about this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 12:57:13 GMT -5
European Euro Fall I went shopping for 5 hours yesterday and the Euro is 1.12 to USD 1.0 ... and sometimes in 2017 it will probably drop below the dollar at one point. It's doesn't look good at all. European Countries are losing monies and clout and that's can be very difficult for all European Countries to overcome.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 28, 2016 13:57:46 GMT -5
Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. I think this is an issue we are doomed to disagree on, sadly. Is this really a view of the EU that's widespread on the continent? It isn't here... I've never heard it so glowingly described by anyone here in the states and in my travels in Europe the gossip and news I'd hear weren't that positive about the European Union either but that's just my experience as AGS' opinion shows there are obviously those who have a very positive view of the EU and I don't see any polls that would say which view is the more commonly held.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 28, 2016 14:39:44 GMT -5
I think this is an issue we are doomed to disagree on, sadly. Is this really a view of the EU that's widespread on the continent? It isn't here... I've never heard it so glowingly described by anyone here in the states and in my travels in Europe the gossip and news I'd hear weren't that positive about the European Union either but that's just my experience as AGS' opinion shows there are obviously those who have a very positive view of the EU and I don't see any polls that would say which view is the more commonly held. The EEC was seen here as purely a trade partnership and the EU as a generally rather less desirable political union. I have never heard anyone, before now, describe it as some sort of symbol of hope or express the view that it was all about maintaining peace in our time. This has slightly astonished me.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 28, 2016 14:44:28 GMT -5
European Euro Fall I went shopping for 5 hours yesterday and the Euro is 1.12 to USD 1.0 ... and sometimes in 2017 it will probably drop below the dollar at one point. It's doesn't look good at all. European Countries are losing monies and clout and that's can be very difficult for all European Countries to overcome. Well not necessarly : Germany wants a strong euro while France wants a low one, depends if you intend to import more then export. The currency thing isn't really an issue, unless the fall is sudden and massive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 15:16:41 GMT -5
European Euro Fall I went shopping for 5 hours yesterday and the Euro is 1.12 to USD 1.0 ... and sometimes in 2017 it will probably drop below the dollar at one point. It's doesn't look good at all. European Countries are losing monies and clout and that's can be very difficult for all European Countries to overcome. Well not necessarly : Germany wants a strong euro while France wants a low one, depends if you intend to import more then export. The currency thing isn't really an issue, unless the fall is sudden and massive. I understand what you are saying here and I feel the currency thing to me is a big deal if you are talking about economics and monies in general. I want a stable European Market not a volatile one. Please understand that. I do understand what are you saying here ... but, I tend to disagree with you respectfully with the notion that you need to understand that's the Euro could fall in a big way in 2017. Anything Possible ... and that's what I believe in.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 28, 2016 16:26:40 GMT -5
Now I'm proud of us!!! A whole page of significant opinions and info shared with respect and aknowledgment of where we all come from in this discussion Now alright, I really thought the US constitution formely forbid this kind of military aliances during peace time. Think it comes from the time I was studying constituational law, the french one, mind you. Now doing some research about it, I struggle to find where I got this from, but I found a german and a french site and wiki pages stating that as well. It might probably be inaccurate, but do you feellow US friends have any idea where that misconception might come from? Not sure where the misconception came from. Though Europeans are hardly alone in not understanding the US Constitution as many here in the states misunderstand some of the basics as well.
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