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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 12, 2016 20:00:01 GMT -5
I don't particularly like what either are doing right now. A big part of the fun for me is strong stories + good continuity and respect for history. I don't see much of that anymore. I've always been a Marvel guy, but I've always been a big fan of Batman and to a lesser extent Superman and Wonder Woman. Only recently have I become interested in Pre-Crisis DC. Still, the cohesiveness of Silver and Bronze age Marvel, in particular, is something that I enjoy far more than the Earth 1, 2, etc, stuff. That said, I think DC's Rebirth is headed in the right direction while Marvel is producing, for the most part, a mess of chaotic crap with no direction and no cohesiveness. I couldn't agree more! It was Marvel's near seamless continuity and sense of a shared universe that made me a fan in the 70s, and DC's lengthy history, particularly with the Golden Age characters, that later drew me to them, albeit in a smaller way. Nowadays, nobody at either company seems to really care much about what was published last week, let alone years ago, so I find it very difficult to get invested in the stories a lot of the time. I gave up on DC compltely for almost five years after the 2011 reboot, and while I'm hoping Rebirth will correct some of the damage, I'm not hugely optimistic. The creators and editors today, some of them at least, don't seem to understand or want to understand that that seamless continuity was a major selling point for fans and as important to many of us as the stories being good (which should be a given). It seems to me that Marvel and DC don't want continuity at all, but are too afraid to officially get rid of it for fear of pushing long-time fans over the edge. Once again, we see the influence of the finite classics like Watchmen and DKR's. This is the basic model that a lot of creators are going for. That's fine, but does that kind of storytelling have a place in monthly superhero comics that are supposed to exist in a shared universe? I don't think so. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 12, 2016 20:03:59 GMT -5
I think the reason I am in a similar boat is because of the rogues gallery that Marvel has amassed. Hands down, best villains around. This keeps the stories compelling and it seems that 90% of their villains are at the least, visually appealing. To me, you cannot compare Lex Luthor to Kingpin, Joker to Green Goblin or Darkseid to Thanos. Marvel has the best! There are periods of DC heroes I enjoy (like Adams era and 80's Batman and some Green Arrow) but on the flip side, I have zero interest in Superman, JLA, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Flash. Why? Their rogues suck IMO. When your best villain is a carbon copy of you with "evil" powers, that lack creativity in my opinion. Outside of Batman, who has the best rogues gallery, I totally agree that Marvel's rogues are superior. Doctor Doom alone proves this point, but then you have Loki, Magneto, Thanos, most of the Avengers and Spider-Man's rogue gallery, and so on. Marvel seems to have more depth when it comes to villains. |
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Post by berkley on Jul 12, 2016 20:09:24 GMT -5
I don't see a lot of difference between DC and Marvel now but in the 60s and 70s the DC superheroes never caught hold of my imagination the way their Marvel counterparts did, and to this day, I don't feel much interest in the JLA and all the other iconic DC superheroes. The only DC characters I find myself drawn to are the Kirby creations, a few supernatural figures like the Phantom Stranger and Swamp Thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 20:15:46 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more! It was Marvel's near seamless continuity and sense of a shared universe that made me a fan in the 70s, and DC's lengthy history, particularly with the Golden Age characters, that later drew me to them, albeit in a smaller way. Nowadays, nobody at either company seems to really care much about what was published last week, let alone years ago, so I find it very difficult to get invested in the stories a lot of the time. I gave up on DC compltely for almost five years after the 2011 reboot, and while I'm hoping Rebirth will correct some of the damage, I'm not hugely optimistic. The creators and editors today, some of them at least, don't seem to understand or want to understand that that seamless continuity was a major selling point for fans and as important to many of us as the stories being good (which should be a given). It seems to me that Marvel and DC don't want continuity at all, but are too afraid to officially get rid of it for fear of pushing long-time fans over the edge. Once again, we see the influence of the finite classics like Watchmen and DKR's. This is the basic model that a lot of creators are going for. That's fine, but does that kind of storytelling have a place in monthly superhero comics that are supposed to exist in a shared universe? I don't think so. Conversely the creators at one point failed to realize or didn't want to admit that the stories featuring these characters were not one seamless story but things done quickly to sell books but they let their fandom override their sense and tried molding them into a seamless whole as a single monolithic thing when it really wasn't, ignoring the obvious cracks and fallacies they inserted to make the attempt and at some point the house of cards was due to collapse, but fans on ly want to go back to the point they liked rather than the nature of what the stories were when they started. They want to believe the illusion of one seamless story, when the reality is, that was never the intention of these types of stories until the second generation of creators, who were fans came in and tried to create a continuity voodoo on a bunch of stories that were created and thrown at the wall to see what stuck and sold. At some point within the last decade and a half we got to the point where these continuity house of cards were so top heavy that the foundation collapsed in on itself, but the generation of fandom who wanted to believe the illusion and that it could last forever are still in denial about it. It didn't start as one seamless story, it was never meant to be one seamless story, and the attempt to make it one by that second generation who were fan/creators was vainglorious at best and doomed to eventual failure because it went against the very nature of the thing they were the heirs of. -M |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Jul 12, 2016 21:01:06 GMT -5
I think it's really hard to lend a specific personality to one company over the other. Up through the 1970s, sure, but since then, creators have fluidly come and gone from one company to the other, and so flavors and ideas have cross-pollinated across the aisles. Most great talents at Marvel have done some work for DC that was equally good, and vice versa. And characters change depending upon who is writing them. David Reed's Batman is not Doug Moench's Batman is not Frank Miller's Batman is not Marv Wolfman's Batman is not Scott Snyder's Batman.
But if we're talking pre-1980s, there's no doubt that Marvel was the more compelling company in terms of characterization and development, as well as dynamic art and compelling continuity. And yet I favor DC for the Mythology angle -- Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League are not just comic books and licensed franchises -- they are cultural figureheads who loomed large for me as far back as I can remember. I don't necessarily want to pick up every Superman comic book I see, but I will always love the character far more than anything Marvel's got going because he's been there in my life all along and holds tremendous meaning to me. That doesn't necessarily translate to sales for DC, of course. In fact, it's precisely why I didn't go see Batman vs. Superman. Actually, as much as I love the DC core far more than that of Marvel, I'm a huge believer that it's time for those copyrights to expire so that the characters can be enjoyed as the part of our cultural heritage that they are, belonging to everyone and not just Dan DiDio and Jim Lee.
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Post by dupersuper on Jul 12, 2016 22:26:44 GMT -5
I've always leaned DC only because they happen to have my fave'rit (Superman), but even as a kid I found the binary DC OR Marvel or Star Trek OR Star Wars mentality silly. Especially since over the decades DC and Marvel have largely been built by the same people (Stern, Byrne, Claremont, Englehart, Thomas, Simone, Wolfman, Perez, Kirby, Ditko, Soule, Johns, David, Waid, Morrison, Gaiman, Busiek, Ostrander, Jurgens, Kesel...).
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 13, 2016 0:04:07 GMT -5
My son and I were talking tonight about the current state of Marvel, and we both agreed that anyone who has ever read superhero comics loves some kind of Marvel, whether it was the Silver Age, the X-Men, Spider-Man, Deadpool, somebody.
I grew up with both and love both, but the Marvel I love is not the current Marvel.
When I think of the Marvels that I really love, like Claremont/Byrne/Cockrum/Smith Uncanny X-Men, Byrne's FF, Miller & Janson's DD, Ennis & Dillon's Punisher, PAD's Hulk, Busiek & Ross' Marvels, yeah, I love em, but when I think of DC, there are so many more runs that I really, really love
The entire traingle run of Superman titles in the 90's, All Star Superman, The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Preacher, Sandman, the Authority, Top Ten, JSA, Giffen & the Bierbaums' Legion, Levitz & Giffen's Legion, Crisis, Rucka's Wonder Woman, Promethea, Planetary, Transmetropolitan, and on and on and on
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 13, 2016 0:24:51 GMT -5
The creators and editors today, some of them at least, don't seem to understand or want to understand that that seamless continuity was a major selling point for fans and as important to many of us as the stories being good (which should be a given). It seems to me that Marvel and DC don't want continuity at all, but are too afraid to officially get rid of it for fear of pushing long-time fans over the edge. Once again, we see the influence of the finite classics like Watchmen and DKR's. This is the basic model that a lot of creators are going for. That's fine, but does that kind of storytelling have a place in monthly superhero comics that are supposed to exist in a shared universe? I don't think so. Conversely the creators at one point failed to realize or didn't want to admit that the stories featuring these characters were not one seamless story but things done quickly to sell books but they let their fandom override their sense and tried molding them into a seamless whole as a single monolithic thing when it really wasn't, ignoring the obvious cracks and fallacies they inserted to make the attempt and at some point the house of cards was due to collapse, but fans on ly want to go back to the point they liked rather than the nature of what the stories were when they started. They want to believe the illusion of one seamless story, when the reality is, that was never the intention of these types of stories until the second generation of creators, who were fans came in and tried to create a continuity voodoo on a bunch of stories that were created and thrown at the wall to see what stuck and sold. At some point within the last decade and a half we got to the point where these continuity house of cards were so top heavy that the foundation collapsed in on itself, but the generation of fandom who wanted to believe the illusion and that it could last forever are still in denial about it. It didn't start as one seamless story, it was never meant to be one seamless story, and the attempt to make it one by that second generation who were fan/creators was vainglorious at best and doomed to eventual failure because it went against the very nature of the thing they were the heirs of. -M Continuity certainly got out of hand at one point, but that was the creators and editors making bad decisions in a framework that was pretty solid and easy to follow until the mid-80's. I'm mainly talking about Marvel, here. DC certainly wasn't designed to be a shared universe, but Stan and Jack very quickly started molding it into one and that's what influenced those second generation creators as you say. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 0:31:25 GMT -5
Conversely the creators at one point failed to realize or didn't want to admit that the stories featuring these characters were not one seamless story but things done quickly to sell books but they let their fandom override their sense and tried molding them into a seamless whole as a single monolithic thing when it really wasn't, ignoring the obvious cracks and fallacies they inserted to make the attempt and at some point the house of cards was due to collapse, but fans on ly want to go back to the point they liked rather than the nature of what the stories were when they started. They want to believe the illusion of one seamless story, when the reality is, that was never the intention of these types of stories until the second generation of creators, who were fans came in and tried to create a continuity voodoo on a bunch of stories that were created and thrown at the wall to see what stuck and sold. At some point within the last decade and a half we got to the point where these continuity house of cards were so top heavy that the foundation collapsed in on itself, but the generation of fandom who wanted to believe the illusion and that it could last forever are still in denial about it. It didn't start as one seamless story, it was never meant to be one seamless story, and the attempt to make it one by that second generation who were fan/creators was vainglorious at best and doomed to eventual failure because it went against the very nature of the thing they were the heirs of. -M Continuity certainly got out of hand at one point, but that was the creators and editors making bad decisions in a framework that was pretty solid and easy to follow until the mid-80's. I'm mainly talking about Marvel, here. DC certainly wasn't designed to be a shared universe, but Stan and Jack very quickly started molding it into one and that's what influenced those second generation creators as you say. Marvel "continuity" as one big seamless story went off the rails as soon as they brought in Sub-Mariner and Captain America-the 60s stories didn't jibe with the stuff published post-WWII, Stan mostly ignored those stories but the second generation of fan creators tried to integrate them into that seamless monolithic myth of the "Marvel Universe" which was a house of cards really, never meant to bear that kind of burden. Sure stories were created and this retroactively explained (some ion good stories, some ion terrible stories) but it was trying to create something that was never intended with the original stories and never really worked unless you were wearing rose-colored glasses or drinking the Kool-Aid. Fans ignored the problems, rationalized them, or tried to explain them away because they wanted it to work and to be one seamless story, but the problems were always there, elephants in the room and eventually the house of cards folded in on itself. -M |
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Post by foxley on Jul 13, 2016 0:38:45 GMT -5
I think the reason I am in a similar boat is because of the rogues gallery that Marvel has amassed. Hands down, best villains around. This keeps the stories compelling and it seems that 90% of their villains are at the least, visually appealing. To me, you cannot compare Lex Luthor to Kingpin, Joker to Green Goblin or Darkseid to Thanos. Marvel has the best! There are periods of DC heroes I enjoy (like Adams era and 80's Batman and some Green Arrow) but on the flip side, I have zero interest in Superman, JLA, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Flash. Why? Their rogues suck IMO. When your best villain is a carbon copy of you with "evil" powers, that lack creativity in my opinion. Outside of Batman, who has the best rogues gallery, I totally agree that Marvel's rogues are superior. Doctor Doom alone proves this point, but then you have Loki, Magneto, Thanos, most of the Avengers and Spider-Man's rogue gallery, and so on. Marvel seems to have more depth when it comes to villains. Sorry, guys, but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Batman definitely has the best rogues gallery, followed by the Flash. Spidey's may come in third, but didn't Marvel kill off all of Sipdey's old bad guys to establish how 'awesome' their new character Kaine was? I just don't get the appeal of Doom as a character (is insufferable arrogance supposed to be an appealing character trait? And the 'it was just a Doombot' explanation for every defeat surely got stale within 2 or 3 uses), and Thanos started life as a pale Darksied rip-off who has gradually turned into Jim Starlin's pet Mary Sue. |
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Post by Action Ace on Jul 13, 2016 0:40:22 GMT -5
I was the only kid on the playground in the 1970s that preferred DC to Marvel. It wasn't until college in the 1990s that I found others that liked DC more and that was only due to the current comics and Vertigo.
I prefer less stringent continuity. If Geoff Johns doesn't want to use the current low power Superman and Bat Chappie in his Justice League book, he shouldn't have to.
I also love the multiverse. If Action Comics #950 had a New52 Superman story in it, Action Comics #951 had an old Earth Two Kal-L story, #952 had a Silver Age Superman story etc. etc., I'd be happy.
I'm fine if there's little or no characterization.
I prefer DC's classic art staff over Marvel's. I think some people in this forum needed smelling salts when I mentioned I liked Dick Dillin's art on JLA more than John Buscema's on the Avengers.
Out of my favorite 100 superheroes, I think Marvel gets five spots. (fortunately, Spidey, Captain America, Vision, Human Torch (Johnny) and Mr. Fantastic have got quite a few appearances)
I'm not a fan of the villains either. I'd rather read a comic book with Terra Man in it than Thanos.
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Post by foxley on Jul 13, 2016 1:02:24 GMT -5
I prefer DC's classic art staff over Marvel's. I think some people in this forum needed smelling salts when I mentioned I liked Dick Dillin's art on JLA more than John Buscema's on the Avengers. I'm not a fan of the villains either. I'd rather read a comic book with Terra Man in it than Thanos. Preaching to the choir here. And Terra Man is a cowboy riding a winged horse through space! How can any comic book fan not love that? |
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Post by tingramretro on Jul 13, 2016 1:39:09 GMT -5
Conversely the creators at one point failed to realize or didn't want to admit that the stories featuring these characters were not one seamless story but things done quickly to sell books but they let their fandom override their sense and tried molding them into a seamless whole as a single monolithic thing when it really wasn't, ignoring the obvious cracks and fallacies they inserted to make the attempt and at some point the house of cards was due to collapse, but fans on ly want to go back to the point they liked rather than the nature of what the stories were when they started. They want to believe the illusion of one seamless story, when the reality is, that was never the intention of these types of stories until the second generation of creators, who were fans came in and tried to create a continuity voodoo on a bunch of stories that were created and thrown at the wall to see what stuck and sold. At some point within the last decade and a half we got to the point where these continuity house of cards were so top heavy that the foundation collapsed in on itself, but the generation of fandom who wanted to believe the illusion and that it could last forever are still in denial about it. It didn't start as one seamless story, it was never meant to be one seamless story, and the attempt to make it one by that second generation who were fan/creators was vainglorious at best and doomed to eventual failure because it went against the very nature of the thing they were the heirs of. -M Continuity certainly got out of hand at one point, but that was the creators and editors making bad decisions in a framework that was pretty solid and easy to follow until the mid-80's. I'm mainly talking about Marvel, here. DC certainly wasn't designed to be a shared universe, but Stan and Jack very quickly started molding it into one and that's what influenced those second generation creators as you say. I agree. I'd say Marvel's overall continuity was still pretty much perfect (barring the odd minor glitch) until about 1988. After that, cracks started to appear, and sometime in the 90s they seemed to basically just give up on it. I believe about ten or eleven years ago that lax attittude then became more or less te official company line on the matter, and it's been a mess ever since. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jul 13, 2016 1:47:26 GMT -5
Continuity certainly got out of hand at one point, but that was the creators and editors making bad decisions in a framework that was pretty solid and easy to follow until the mid-80's. I'm mainly talking about Marvel, here. DC certainly wasn't designed to be a shared universe, but Stan and Jack very quickly started molding it into one and that's what influenced those second generation creators as you say. Marvel "continuity" as one big seamless story went off the rails as soon as they brought in Sub-Mariner and Captain America-the 60s stories didn't jibe with the stuff published post-WWII, Stan mostly ignored those stories but the second generation of fan creators tried to integrate them into that seamless monolithic myth of the "Marvel Universe" which was a house of cards really, never meant to bear that kind of burden. Sure stories were created and this retroactively explained (some in good stories, some in terrible stories) but it was trying to create something that was never intended with the original stories and never really worked unless you were wearing rose-colored glasses or drinking the Kool-Aid. Fans ignored the problems, rationalized them, or tried to explain them away because they wanted it to work and to be one seamless story, but the problems were always there, elephants in the room and eventually the house of cards folded in on itself. -M Not really true. Marvel may have grwn out of Timely, but unlike DC, it didn't really exist as the entity it is now until 1961. Bringing Cap and Subby back didn't really affect anything continuity wise, as the actual 'Marvel Universe' effectively began with FF #1, not with Marvel Comics #1. Stan Lee was basically creating a shared universe from the very start, there. When it came to characters and stories from the pre-Marvel era, he just picked stuff he wanted and ignored the rest. It was only later writers like Roy Thomas who started trying to incorporate some of the earlier material, and even Roy said in one of his Invaders lettercols that he saw many of the GA stories featuring those characters as fictionalized accounts of events (with Invaders being the 'true' record). |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 13, 2016 2:27:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure creators viewed the Marvel Universe as a "seemliness story" in the literal sense. There was more cohesion in the 60's, 70's and early 80's but you could just read Spider-Man and never feel like you missed anything. Continuity meant that if Thor was trying to stop the Casket of Ancient Winters from freezing the Earth in Manhattan in his book, that a quick mention of why it was snowing in July would be mentioned in Spider-Man or Daredevil. Ironically, even though Marvel's continuity and characterizations are out of wack nowadays, the event comics are far more intrusive when it comes to only reading a few titles because they almost always interfere with those storylines at some point.
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