shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 12, 2016 22:08:12 GMT -5
We tend to think of the Silver Age (approx. 1956-1970) as a high point in comicdom that saved the medium from stagnation, but I'm also beginning to wonder if the Silver Age is the reason why comics have come to be seen as a male-dominated medium predominately featuring men and (until recently) predominately read by males.
During the Golden Age, comic books, as a medium, were not particularly demographic-specific. While there was little to no representation for non-whites, non-Americans, non-Christians, the elderly, and the disabled, comics were pretty much read by everyone. I've seen some scholars compare circ numbers to population numbers and determine that many adults without children were reading comics too. And while depictions of females in Golden Age comics were often lackluster and sexist, there were MANY comics for girls, from Archie, Blondie, Little Lulu, and Millie the Model to Young Romance Wonder Woman and Mary Marvel.
And yet, when the Silver Age came around, All DC added to their offering for girls was "Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane," and Marvel, limited in the number of new titles they could publish, decided to allocate none towards females (note: they were already publishing Millie the Model from before the advent of "The Marvel Age"). Meanwhile, companies and titles that had previously catered to girls went the way of the dinosaur as male-dominated superhero comics began to take on the almost exclusive focus of the comic book medium.
Unless I'm missing some glaring exceptions, it isn't until the 1970s and the Women's Liberation movement that we start seeing female protagonists getting their own titles again.
So I guess I have several questions stemming from all this:
1. Did the Silver Age superhero titles chase away female readers, or were they so exclusively male-targeted because female readership had already dried up?
2. For female members or members with female family members who read comics during the Silver Age, any anecdotal evidence to support or refute the idea of the Silver Age of comics being a turn-off to female readers?
3. More generally, if you're female and enjoy comics, does your enjoyment extend back to the Silver Age? Do you in any way feel excluded when reading those books?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 12, 2016 23:54:02 GMT -5
Good post Shax and obviously there are multiple reasons for it and many exceptions. I would posit one reason would be that, considering the 1960s and 1970s, the comics code was somewhat to blame. How?
First off, girls mature earlier than boys. Trying not to generalize but girls were more attracted to the romance and teen comedy genres than superheroes too. However these female oriented genres were mostly written by middle aged men. Also the comics code kept these comics, essentially, stuck in the 1950s (except for the fashions) as far as values went. Based on my observations from my sister who read comics as a young girl and stopped as a young teen, these comic stories had no relevance to the world around her in the early 1970s. She went on to romance paperbacks, pop star magazines or other female magazines and left Archie and Girl's Love comics behind. She had no interest in spandex superheroes, with or without breasts. There was nothing in the comics field that she could relate to as a teen.
So she was gone. So where millions of other women. Mad Magazine might have been the only thing that kept her interest for awhile in the 1970s
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 0:02:55 GMT -5
Good post Shax and obviously there are multiple reasons for it and many exceptions. I would posit one reason would be that, considering the 1960s and 1970s, the comics code was somewhat to blame. How? First off, girls mature earlier than boys. Trying not to generalize but girls were more attracted to the romance and teen comedy genres than superheroes too. However these female oriented genres were mostly written by middle aged men. Also the comics code kept these comics, essentially, stuck in the 1950s (except for the fashions) as far as values went. Based on my observations from my sister who read comics as a young girl and stopped as a young teen, these comic stories had no relevance to the world around her in the early 1970s. She went on to romance paperbacks, pop star magazines or other female magazines and left Archie and Girl's Love comics behind. She had no interest in spandex superheroes, with or without breasts. There was nothing in the comics field that she could relate to as a teen. So she was gone. So where millions of other women. Mad Magazine might have been the only thing that kept her interest for awhile in the 1970s Fascinating perspective. So essentially, boys were more easily entertained by the simplicity and throwback tone of comics code-approved stories than girls. Or maybe you can take it further and argue that the Comics Code was, itself, gender biased in what kinds of filth it outlawed and what kinds it didn't. Smut and scandal were not allowed, but violence was. Thus, a girl craving romantic smut could no longer turn to comics for her entertainment needs, but a boy looking for Superman to throw-down with a big bad guy could still get pages and pages of four color wish fulfillment.
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 13, 2016 0:11:50 GMT -5
Very interesting points all.
I'd never thought of it before, but, somehow, all of that seems to make sense.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 13, 2016 0:17:16 GMT -5
I wouldn't use the term smut because that makes love-making seem "evil". Remember, its mostly boys who are into porn, not girls. But you essentially got it. Immature boys are into power-fantasies and can identify with muscle bound characters beating each other silly. Girls as young teens are into finding boyfriends and experiencing romance. When you read those superhero comics from the 60s and 70s, those spandex simps acted quite immature in the presence of females.Batman was afraid of nothing, except women. Superman was a super-jerk in his treatment of Lois or Lana. For the most part Marvel male heroes were no better. What was a young girl to read at that time that she could identify with, a girl who most of her friends were beginning to smoke pot and talk about birth control for example. Those"girl " comics that still existed were so quaint and antequated
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 0:56:59 GMT -5
So I've been sharing the link to this thread in various places on facebook, and someone there raised the point that women's representation in comics from the 1940s to the 1950s parallels their representation in the workforce. In the '40s, while all able-bodied men were at war, women were empowered to be the bread-winners for the first time and, when the men returned from war, so did the expectations for women as wives, mothers, and home-makers.
So maybe 1940s comic readers were also more accepting of women as independent protagonists than they were a decade later.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 13, 2016 7:37:06 GMT -5
Judging from a very small sampling of the population (my family, basically), I am convinced that the more intelligent or mature a comic is, the more it has a chance of attracting a diverse readership. (By "mature" I really mean mature and not "stuff you wouldn't want a child to read"; it can be funny, it can be tragic, it can be exciting, but it is meant to be read by an adult rather than a child; think Malraux, Le Guin, Dostoyevsky).
Superheroes and other action heroes, which were the staple of the silver age, are usually power fantasies targeted at a young male audience (even when the main protagonist is female). The basic story of a character whose real worth is far greater than the rest of the world suspects and who performs great physical feats or asserts their dominance over an opponent is quintessentially male, whether the character wears a cape, a loincloth or cow-boy boots.
The silver age might then, as you surmise, have chased away female readership by focusing on one type of storytelling (heroes vs villains, us vs them, conflict resolution through violence) instead of providing a large array of subjects. I'm not sure the '40s and '50s had much more variety, but there was still some -especially in comic-strips... I wonder what their readership's demographics looked like. Little Nemo, Krazy Kat, Peanuts, those are definitely not Super-Joe vs Destructor).
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Post by MDG on Jul 13, 2016 8:26:44 GMT -5
My guess would be that the proportion of female comic readers stayed fairly stable into the 70s, but they were reading Gold Key, Archie, Dell, DC and Marvel's Romance and teen books, etc. I wouldn't be surprised (based on a tiny focus group of my sister an two cousins) that they read Warrens and other horror/mystery books as well. (Note that when Atlas was created in the mid-70s, they still included teen and romance titles.)
I think the collapse of the traditional market and the image of early comic shops as "girl free areas" led to the impression that girls weren't interested in comics. They were invisible in the new model, though many were still interested, though not in superheroes and much of the mainstream product (Vertigo being an exception.)
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 8:30:12 GMT -5
Superheroes and other action heroes, which were the staple of the silver age, are usually power fantasies targeted at a young male audience (even when the main protagonist is female). The basic story of a character whose real worth is far greater than the rest of the world suspects and who performs great physical feats or asserts their dominance over an opponent is quintessentially male, whether the character wears a cape, a loincloth or cow-boy boots. What about The Hunger Games? You're talking about Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, and while those stories are predominately about male characters, I'm not sure it's exclusively a male fantasy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 8:47:26 GMT -5
In my humble opinion - I say "No" in this subject matter, why?
In the late 50's to early 70's and that's was the time I was a young boy and I do remember going to Comic Book Stores with my oldest brother who was into Comics like I was. Most of the female readers were into more in Marvel Comics than DC Comics why?
Marvel Comics were attractive to females because they were attune to the many problems of superheroes and Marvel is more realistic than DC Comics. When, I do went to the store with my brother many young girls and girls in their teens were buying up Daredevil, Tales of Suspense, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, and Avengers. For DC Comics it was Wonder Woman, Action Comics, Hawkman (if Hawkgirl involved in the story), and Legion of Super Heroes. It was the Legion of Super Heroes were the drawing card for DC Comics because this group has a nice balance of both male and female superheroes and for Marvel Comics the females (girls) prefer Daredevil and Tales of Suspense because of one character - Black Widow because she was strong, determined, and sexy too. I just don't know why in my days that my brother keeps commenting to me that many of the teenaged girls were snatching up these two titles like hotcakes.
To answer the question did the Silver Age chase away female readers - to be honest with you Yes and No. Many of the girls that liked about comics did not feel comfortable going to the store that sells comics because of it's large male readership and they ask their brothers to buy the books for them. Secondly, the female readers had a large silent readership and by saying this most of the sales were dominated by males - but in my own opinion about 30 percent of the sales were conducted by their brothers (males) and that's a moot point to me.
That's why all through my life - Males dominated the Comic Book Stores and that drove away the female readership away because they did not feel safe going there and that's why their brothers and their boyfriends brought comic books for them. I had a girlfriend in High School and she did not feel comfortable going the Comic Book Store and I always brought her Batman and Wonder Woman Comic Books for her because she loves Batgirl and Wonder Woman and later on she had a taste for She Hulk, Spider Woman, and couple other books that I just can't remember and that's contributed her of not going to the store in the first place.
This is a very difficult question to answer but this is the best I could and it's a valid subject matter that warrant serious discussion and I'm happy that Shax came up with it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 9:08:49 GMT -5
Many of the girls that liked about comics did not feel comfortable going to the store that sells comics because of it's large male readership and they ask their brothers to buy the books for them. Secondly, the female readers had a large silent readership and by saying this most of the sales were dominated by males - but in my own opinion about 30 percent of the sales were conducted by their brothers (males) and that's a moot point to me. That's why all through my life - Males dominated the Comic Book Stores and that drove away the female readership away because they did not feel safe going there and that's why their brothers and their boyfriends brought comic books for them. I had a girlfriend in High School and she did not feel comfortable going the Comic Book Store and I always brought her Batman and Wonder Woman Comic Books for her because she loves Batgirl and Wonder Woman and later on she had a taste for She Hulk, Spider Woman, and couple other books that I just can't remember and that's contributed her of not going to the store in the first place. This remains a problem today. I have a lot of female students who share my love for comics but have tried each of the local comic stores and were ogled or treated poorly each time. We do have one LCS that is very female-friendly and is, coincidentally enough, managed by a gay man. Back when I was running an extracurricular superhero club (and most of the members were girls) we took a field trip there. How sad that there are no heterosexual comic shop owners in the area who are capable of treating female customers with respect and dignity though.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 13, 2016 9:23:30 GMT -5
It seems to me that the shady environments of some comic shops is what drove female readers away. When female readers could simply go to a newsstand and buy their comics, they didn't have to deal with lecherous looks and snide misogyny.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 9:31:06 GMT -5
It seems to me that the shady environments of some comic shops is what drove female readers away. When female readers could simply go to a newsstand and buy their comics, they didn't have to deal with lecherous looks and snide misogyny. And yet I grew up in the early '90s, when comics could still be found on newsstands, and I distinctly recall comics being seen as a "boy" thing. Every boy in school had an opinion on Batman and The X-Men, but I don't recall a single girl ever expressing any interest in those things until the animated series for both properties came around a few years later. So, from my own anecdotal experience, it would seem the industry had already done something to lose female readership long before comics went direct market only.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 13, 2016 9:40:42 GMT -5
Superheroes and other action heroes, which were the staple of the silver age, are usually power fantasies targeted at a young male audience (even when the main protagonist is female). The basic story of a character whose real worth is far greater than the rest of the world suspects and who performs great physical feats or asserts their dominance over an opponent is quintessentially male, whether the character wears a cape, a loincloth or cow-boy boots. What about The Hunger Games? You're talking about Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, and while those stories are predominately about male characters, I'm not sure it's exclusively a male fantasy. I wouldn't say exclusively, but the archetypal western hero is certainly more male than female; combine that with the typical teenage male traits (feelings of inadequacy, drive to rise to the status of alpha male, probable resentment at being picked on by more powerful competitors) and you basically have the blueprint for the superhero genre. Your example of the Hunger Games is quite germane, as that story is clearly a power fantasy (male-oriented, generally) with a female protagonist. I think that it is however telling that said protagonist is not simply a male character in a woman's body. Her motivation is far less self-aggrandizing than would that of a typical male hero, and she's definitely not as agressive as most male heroes. (She doesn't even end up with the alpha partner, as I understand it : didn't she go for the dweeb at the end?) I would therefore view the Hunger Games as sort of a "Boy's Tale" for girls. Nothing wrong with that, and there is definitely an audience for such stories (as there is for "Girl's Tales" for boys). I'm just not convinced that most women are as interested in power fantasies as most men can be, irrespective of whether the main character is a man or a woman. They're simply less influenced by a biologically-driven need to kick the a$$ of competitors and to use violence to solve problems. (Again, that's obviously a generalization, but I think numbers reflect that).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 13, 2016 9:45:58 GMT -5
What about The Hunger Games? You're talking about Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, and while those stories are predominately about male characters, I'm not sure it's exclusively a male fantasy. I wouldn't say exclusively, but the archetypal western hero is certainly more male than female; combine that with the typical teenage male traits (feelings of inadequacy, drive to rise to the status of alpha male, probable resentment at being picked on by more powerful competitors) and you basically have the blueprint for the superhero genre. Your example of the Hunger Games is quite germane, as that story is clearly a power fantasy (male-oriented, generally) with a female protagonist. I think that it is however telling that said protagonist is not simply a male character in a woman's body. Her motivation is far less self-aggrandizing than would that of a typical male hero, and she's definitely not as agressive as most male heroes. (She doesn't even end up with the alpha partner, as I understand it : didn't she go for the dweeb at the end?) I would therefore view the Hunger Games as sort of a "Boy's Tale" for girls. Nothing wrong with that, and there is definitely an audience for such stories (as there is for "Girl's Tales" for boys). I'm just not convinced that most women are as interested in power fantasies as most men can be, irrespective of whether the main character is a man or a woman. They're simply less influenced by a biologically-driven need to kick the a$$ of competitors and to use violence to solve problems. (Again, that's obviously a generalization, but I think numbers reflect that). I think girls/women absolutely experience "the typical teenage male traits (feelings of inadequacy, drive to rise to the status of alpha male, probable resentment at being picked on by more powerful competitors" except that it's the alpha female they seek to replace, and it's by wielding a less direct form of power. Mean Girls follows The Hero Mono-Myth Cycle.
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