shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,873
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Post by shaxper on Jul 20, 2016 9:08:51 GMT -5
It's amazing to me that the value of Englehart and Roger's work wasn't immediately recognized at DC, but apparently...
"Marshall and I were ordered into [Joe Orlando's] office on a number of occasions, whereupon, in a display of red-faced screaming through foam-flecked lips worthy of a Marine drill instructor, Joe would loudly inform us how worthless we were and how our paltry efforts were unfit to grace the insides of a book with the DC imprint on the cover. I don't know how Marshall felt about it, but I know that I might have taken his opinion more to heart if it hadn't been coming from the one very boring, pedestrian artist that had graced the EC stable"
Steve Englehart "The BatCave Companion" p.208 ed: Michael Eury.
Their run actually began with, I think, Detective 463 though it would only be found in the back-up tales at that point. The stories were linked together via The Calculator who would go after and defeat one superhero after another (The Atom, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Elongated Man, Black Canary). Both Englehart and Rogers wanted to work on Batman but couldn't simply walk in uninvited so sort of snuck him into the story so as to get that chance. Mind boggling that Orlando didn't see how great their work was. I have to say that I would have never cut it in the comics biz back in the day when editors acted like that. I would have been arrested for assault. Orlando still sounds like a Teddy Bear next to Mort Weisinger. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 20, 2016 15:42:07 GMT -5
I had to do some digging. The Calculator story did run in the back ups in Tec #463-468. It was written by Bob Rozakis. Mike Grell did the art on 463-464. Ernie Chan did 465. And Rogers did 466-468. #468 was Roger's first work on Batman but NOT with Englehart.
Whoops! Change "Englehart and Rogers" to "Bob Rozakis" then.
"I was trying to get more freelance writing and came up with an idea of a villain who would fight the different heroes in succession. At the time, there were rotating heroes in the Detective backup slot, so it was a great spot for it. Julie [Schwartz] liked the idea and I was able to run with it. My goal was to ultimately write a Batman story on my own... That was why the Calculator's plans led to a confrontation with the Caped Crusader."
Bob Rozakis from The BatCave Companion p. 207.
That makes a LOT more sense. I would have sworn I'd read in a number of interviews Englehart saying that he'd never met Rogers when the books came out. He wrote the scripts and then headed to Europe and had zero interaction with Rogers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 21:38:16 GMT -5
Whoops! Change "Englehart and Rogers" to "Bob Rozakis" then.
"I was trying to get more freelance writing and came up with an idea of a villain who would fight the different heroes in succession. At the time, there were rotating heroes in the Detective backup slot, so it was a great spot for it. Julie [Schwartz] liked the idea and I was able to run with it. My goal was to ultimately write a Batman story on my own... That was why the Calculator's plans led to a confrontation with the Caped Crusader."
Bob Rozakis from The BatCave Companion p. 207.
That makes a LOT more sense. I would have sworn I'd read in a number of interviews Englehart saying that he'd never met Rogers when the books came out. He wrote the scripts and then headed to Europe and had zero interaction with Rogers. I have read some of these interviews & it did sound like Englehart did not know who drew the issues until many months later. He did go to Europe for awhile after he turned in the Batman scripts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 21:44:20 GMT -5
I kind of wonder where these characters were being brought back from. Hugo Strange last appeared in Batman 1, I believe; the Joker of course, was a regular but his participation here will be heavily influenced by that issue as well; Deadshot had made one appearance back in Batman 59 which, I don't think has ever been reprinted. I can understand remembering an obscure story from your childhood that you want to revisit/elaborate on/use but Englehart would have been too young to have read that Deadshot tale back in 1951. I suspect that given the influence of Batman 1 on his run, Englehart must have picked up the fairly recently released Famous First Edition of that comic and was more likely than not flipping through Michael Fleisher's Batman Encyclopedia to have resurrected Floyd Lawton. I've always wondered though - if you work for DC, are you allowed to simply go into their vault and flip through any comic you want for research? Englehart had to have gone back & read some of the early Batman issues for this run. This run was a homage to some of the great Golden Age Batman stories. And I may be wrong but in interviews writers for DC & Marvel will say they went back & read back issues to prepare to write a character. I suspect this is done less & less - at least based on some modern writers ignoring past stories... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 21:46:57 GMT -5
Extremely exaggerated cape and ears on the cowl are two of the things most of my favorite Batman artists do. Matt Wagner is one of the few that draws a very conservative Batman costume that I still like. This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of "realism" in comics. Take advantage of the medium to make the stories & characters larger than life & fantastic. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 20, 2016 22:08:29 GMT -5
That makes a LOT more sense. I would have sworn I'd read in a number of interviews Englehart saying that he'd never met Rogers when the books came out. He wrote the scripts and then headed to Europe and had zero interaction with Rogers. I have read some of these interviews & it did sound like Englehart did not know who drew the issues until many months later. He did go to Europe for awhile after he turned in the Batman scripts.
Ugh! Alright - my second mistake within this thread. Remember that quote I attributed to Englehart? I've gone back and rechecked the quote and it's all there, word for word, the same, nothing out of place, except... it wasn't Englehart. It was Terry Austin.
I swear I almost always know what I'm talking about when it comes to Batman, it's just, I don't know, can we just pretend this never happened? Can we pretend I've had a serious head injury or something? I swear, one day I'm going to get hit on the head and my memory will start working right again along with my past as the Green Goblin, but look, can we just blame, I don't know, Shaxper for my screw-ups? Yeah, Shaxper, he's behind this.
(actually, in reading The BatCave Companion and it's assorted quotes, I guess I just assumed "Hey, if they're not talking to the artist, then they must be talking to the writer." I just didn't think of the inker).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 22:37:02 GMT -5
 by Englehart, Rogers, Austin. Page One: Batman is standing in a spotlight. He unmasks to reveal himself as Bruce Wayne. Then he pulls off the mask of Bruce Wayne & reveals himself as Hugo Strange declaring "I Am The Batman". The next page he recaps the last 3 issues by "ranting" about his plan to his assistant. He is in Bruce Wayne's penthouse & plans to ruin both Batman & Bruce Wayne. The next page shows Alfred thrown into a room by one of the monster men. In the middle of the room Bruce lies on a cot unconscious. In Bruce's office Strange starts to bankrupt Bruce & transfer Bruce's wealth to himself however Silver shows up & Hugo can not remember her name...Englehart again establishes her as someone special by showing Bruce gave hers the keys to his penthouse. She senses Bruce is not himself & goes to the clinic to get answers. She is rebuffed by Strange's assistant. Silver then calls Dick Grayson (Yay!) at Hudson University to tell him something is wrong with Bruce. Dick makes light of the situation but when he hangs up the phone he changes into Robin. As Silver hangs up she is abducted by Strange's monsters. Meanwhile Bruce is fighting the drugs Strange has been giving him to keep him sedated. And as Strange counts the money he is making he again goes on a rant about how incredible Batman is. He then goes to a theatre & offers to reveal Batman's ID to the highest bidder. In the shadows sit Rupert Thorne, The Penguin & The Joker. He states he will reveal it in 24 hrs & leaves the theatre. But he is assaulted by... Rupert Thorne. At the clinic Robin breaks in to rescue Bruce & Alfred. Rogers does an astounding sequence over 2 pages of showing Robin's fighting style involving acrobatic moves. Very well done! Meanwhile Strange is beaten by Thorne's men to reveal Batman's ID. Strange refuses saying " to learn the Batman's secrets you must triumph over him - not me!". The beating continues until Strange dies! Thorne states "Loyalty? To his arch-enemy! The guy was nuts! You'd almost think - he was the Batman!". Next: The Real Batman back in action with Robin vs The Penguin. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 22:46:57 GMT -5
When I read this issue I felt Englehart nailed all the characters voices so well. Batman fighting off being drugged. Alfred's loyalty. Dick's devotion. And Silver as a smart, beautiful & tough lady worthy of being Bruce's girlfriend. And Hugo Strange. Englehart takes an obscure Golden Age villain & in 2 issues builds him up as a worthy foe to Batman & then kills him? Remember this was back in 1977 when death still meant something in comic books.
And Marshall Rogers did such a great job with drawing Robin & making Silver look gorgeous. Plus his action sequences were amazing. His skills grew with each issue. It was such a joy to see his rapid growth as a storyteller.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 22:53:48 GMT -5
Pencil art from this issue showing Robin's fight:  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 22:55:44 GMT -5
Panel Of Silver St Cloud:  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 23:00:13 GMT -5
Panel Of Silver St Cloud: Blast from the past ... Silver St. Cloud! ... I remember her vividly! |
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 21, 2016 10:51:33 GMT -5
By the second half of the 70s, it was unusual to see characters in superhero comics smoking cigarettes. Silver was shown smoking at least once, and there's a pack and a full ashtray in the panel above.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 21, 2016 10:59:46 GMT -5
By the second half of the 70s, it was unusual to see characters in superhero comics smoking cigarettes. Silver was shown smoking at least once, and there's a pack and a full ashtray in the panel above. Was it a CCA thing? Or was it just the general consensus that science had found smoking detrimental to your health from times previous? |
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 21, 2016 11:21:21 GMT -5
By the second half of the 70s, it was unusual to see characters in superhero comics smoking cigarettes. Silver was shown smoking at least once, and there's a pack and a full ashtray in the panel above. Was it a CCA thing? Or was it just the general consensus that science had found smoking detrimental to your health from times previous? I don't think it was the Comics Code. The most restrictive version of the Code was in the 50s; the Surgeon General's warning didn't appear on cigarette packs until 1964 and TV commercials were banned in 1971. I think it was the growing general consensus that smoking was bad for you and healthy superheroes probably wouldn't smoke. The only exceptions I can think of were older men who smoked cigars - J. Jonah Jameson, Nick Fury, Ben Grimm. I think Reed Richards and Professor X smoked their pipes less often as time went on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 10:13:44 GMT -5
A few more comments before I get to the next issue. Marshall drew some beautiful women. I thought his Silver was drawn so well. She was gorgeous. Plus I liked his Robin. Even with Robin's costume he found ways to have Dick look more of an adult in costume. I also liked the old school way of showing violence. Strange's beating was in the shadows & you "pictured" what was happening vs today's comics which are more explicit showing lots of blood & gore.
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