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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 27, 2014 22:10:52 GMT -5
Hello everybody. It's my first time posting here and you all have Shaxper to thank for that. With his phenomenal Batman and Superman threads having migrated over here from comicbookresources, so have I. And it's a recent posting on his very own Batman #300 and up thread that has inspired me to start this one.
One of the contributors to the discussion going on over there noted "I love Brian Cronin's list ideas, but every time I see the stuff that makes those lists, I end up thinking 'we need to create our own version of that here'".
Well, OK then.
(and I now see that the "contributor" I refer to is none other than Shaxper himself which makes me feel as if my harmless stalking of the guy has become a fullblown obsession. Regardless...)
My attitude is the same. All these lists commemorating 75 years of Batman by celebrating his last 28 have left me wondering just how much of Batman's history has been forgotten. I understand that such tallies will always be skewed by the fact that those tales which are more readily and recently available will rank higher than those that aren't, but how can any celebration of Batman's history justify excluding Dick Sprang? Did the 1960's really contribute only one story worthy of mention in that decade? Was Batman simply a C-List charity case before Frank Miller came along?
Absolutely not.
So let's hear it - what are your favourite Batman stories? It doesn't have to be obscure and if it happens to be one of those tales that always makes it onto such a list, who am I to complain? In fact, it doesn't even have to be your favourite, just one of. It can be your 574th favourite. As long as you feel it's worthy of mention, let loose.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 27, 2014 22:59:05 GMT -5
Good idea for a thread.
OK, no particular ranking for this one - just one of those stories that encapsulates the reason why I love Batman so much and one that I expect to read thousands of more times in the years to come.
Detective Comics 238, December 1956. "The Doors That Hid Disaster"
I believe Tom DeFalco once said that "a good idea gets you as far as the first page". I'd argue that nowhere is this notion more evident than in comicbook stories such as this one.
By the forth panel of this tale (excluding the fantastic splash page featuring Batman and Robin in a giant bowling alley about to be crushed by a giant bowling ball) we've met our villain. Checkmate is a chess themed ne'er do well whose hideout is designed like that of a gigantic chess board on which his men stand before him like pawns before their king. Checkmate is also dying due to exposure from radioactivity. That's right, all of these details are made clear halfway through the story's first page. The cancer is a result of his choosing an unorthodox hiding place from Batman following a heist - a "lead-lined container for radioactive material". By the end of the second page, Checkmate - an original character with a unique theme - has already died as the story jumps ahead three weeks in time. Checkmate would actually make a reappearance in a Chuck Dixon penned issue of Detective Comics over 40 years later (in issue #725 as a matter of fact). It's a flashback that takes up no more than a few panels and the character isn't actually named, but is evidence that Checkmate was memorable enough that he'd reappear in such a manner.
Anyhow, like I said, a villain who was interesting enough that he should have had at least a few more outings is discarded in favour of moving onto other things. Batman is a master excape artist. The world knows this. The reader of 1956 expects this. Checkmate counted on it. Prior to his death, he made arrangements accordingly with his men to place Batman in a gauntlet of seemingly inescapable death traps from which Batman has to devise two ways of escaping from each. You see...Checkmate has decided to reuse the traps of other criminals after rigging them so that the methods Batman had previously used to cheat death could be rigged so that such efforts would now be abjectly useless. Batman once escaped being burned to a crisp on a giant grill by driving a motorcycle in concentric circles up the walls of the circular room in which he was kept? Fine. This time we'll place him in the same trap but line the walls with oil so he won't be able to use the same tactic to get out. Avoid being shot or drowned in a giant fishbowl by breathing the oxygen producing the bubbles from the Diver replica within the bowl? Sorry, that oxygen release has been replaced with gas - think of something else. And to clarify, this isn't a writer taking his ideas from a previous story - these are new, ingenious death traps created specifically for this issue even if they are presented as having been used sometime in Batman's past (the giant bowling ball however was used in Batman #83 but under different circumstances).
It's a great story and I'm not going to give you all of the details because I'm not the writer the author of this tale was (Bill Finger?) It has been reprinted in Batman 228 which is where I found it and should hopefully be not too hard to find for someone who's so inclined. It also contains artwork by Shelly Moldoff who ranks as my third favourite Batman artist (after Jim Aparo and Norm Breyfogle). Moldoff always had that ability to draw Batman the way a great artist should - as someone who looks as much like a creature of the night as he does a daytime adventurer. Someone who could blend in with the shadows when the occassion called for it or show up any other superhero outfit in a brightly lit room. A furrowed brow one minute and the grin of a daredevil the next, Moldoff's Batman would be iconic even if he weren't the most prolific artist the character has ever had.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 28, 2014 8:30:03 GMT -5
The Engelhart-Rogers issues of Detective jump to mind immediately. (And since I had posted this "elsewhere" and have to run, I thought I'd repost them here.)
"That Engelhart’s first two issues were drawn by Walt Simonson was simply more unexpected manna from heaven, but, when Rogers showed up, and those of us who’d been trying to read Det-ecch-tive out of sheer loyalty to a character who was being treated like some third feature from the back in Peter Porkchops took a gander at a story that read and looked like 1940s Batman (minus all the outdated stuff), well, our Batropes got all stiff at once.
Yes, Rogers had some weaknesses: his non-superhero figure work veered toward the clunky at times, and inker supreme Terry Austin probably made chicken salad out of chicken crap at times, but Rogers was an excellent draftsman/storyteller and could draw some seriously noir Gothamscapes. He was no slouch at Batman’s cape either.
Engelhart’s scripts were as much responsible for the excellence of that too brief collaboration (His Silver St. Cloud remains the woman Batman shoulda married), but I think that they made Rogers better, too. I can’t remember seeing such stunningly quick improvement in an artist as I did in Rogers between #471 and #474.
BTW, I didn’t care for the reunion Engelhart and Rogers did a few years ago. Rogers’ art hadn’t evolved, the plot and dialogue were unimpressive, and the whole thing smacked of Larry McMurtry’s piss-poor prequels and sequels to that bittersweet beauty of a cactus rose, Lonesome Dove.
You knew the Engelhart-Rogers serendipity wouldn’t last, but that was really as it should have been. They told Batman’s life story in miniature: he faced his greatest foes, he cheated death, and he chose the love of his life over the love of his life."
I'll be back with a word or two about Batman 156, which was an earlier oasis in another wasteland.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Jul 28, 2014 10:49:09 GMT -5
Hello everybody. It's my first time posting here and you all have Shaxper to thank for that. With his phenomenal Batman and Superman threads having migrated over here from comicbookresources, so have I. And it's a recent posting on his very own Batman #300 and up thread that has inspired me to start this one. So glad to have you here! And this was an awesome thread to put into action. Thanks for that. As long as you don't call yourself "classic shaxper" and threaten to fart on people, we're all good [/p][/quote] Early on in the aforementioned Batman #300 and up thread, I was really surprised by how much quality was there that went totally forgotten once Frank Miller arrived on the scene. It's as if we jumped from Denny O'Neil to Frank Miller and lost over a decade worth of material that happened in between. In my mind, the entire Len Wein/Gerry Conway/Doug Moench stretch is my favorite Batman era to date, not because they nailed the character better than anyone else, but because it's the richest, best orchestrated continuity Batman ever enjoyed, along with some truly GREAT stories and ably backed by some of the best artists ever to touch the franchise (especially Don Newton and Gene Colan, taking on Batman and Detective concurrently!). But my highlights from that era were (note: this is pulled directly from the Batman #300 and Up thread, so you've probably already seen it): Batman #323-324-- Wein's legendary Catwoman/Catman storyline. Absolutely amazing. Untold Legend of the Batman #1-3 -- Absolutely the best Batman origin story ever told. Synthesizes all the given information about Batman's origin over the previous forty years and incorporates it into a meaningful narrative that is dark, moving, inspiring, and ridiculously informative, all while ending in the creation of a Batman who can be goody-goody and yet be taken seriously at the same time. Parts 2 and 3 provide more useful back story on Batman (again putting together all the pieces from 40 years worth of continuity), but the solution to the mystery of who is messing with Batman is both predictable and a bit ridiculous. Batman #332-335-- The Lazarus Affair. A beloved classic. Batman #347-- The Shadow of the Batman. A powerful one-shot story that shows Batman's impact upon two young men considering getting into a life of crime. Batman #349-350, Detective #517, Batman #351: The Monk/vampires storyline. Awesome Colan art and a decent Conway script providing intense action, tone, and visuals, as Bruce and Dick become vampires. Pretty unforgettable. Detective #520, Batman #354: The Haunting of Boss Thorne. Powerful, powerful art and writing as Thorne's criminal empire begins to collapse on top of him. One of the best Batman stories I've ever read. Batman #357-359 and Detective #524-526: Conway's classic Killer Croc storyline which introduces both Croc and Jason Todd. Though the storyline comes and goes, the plotting is strong, and the events are significant. Detective #532: Great insights into Joker's motivations and his relationship with Batman. Batman #368: Jason Todd officially becomes Robin, gets savagely beaten by Crazy Quilt. POWERFUL. Batman #372: An unexpectedly powerful/risky story about racism and boxing. Highly moving. Detective #542-547 and Batman #376-381: The Jason Todd custody battle/Nocturna's return/the fall of Mayor Hill. Very uneven, and a lot of the secondary characters and plot lines are obnoxious, but there are many truly great moments. Certainly, this was the heart of everything Moench was trying to do in his run. Batman #383: A surprisingly lighthearted stand-alone story in which Batman fights to take a nap. Some love the comedy, some hate the comedy. Batman #386-387, and Detective Comics #553: The Black Mask storyline, featuring his first appearance and origin, as well as some grotesque, action-intensive story-telling. Batman #389-391 and Detective Comics #556-557: The final Nocturna storyline. Powerful art, action, and tone, as the Red Skies from Crisis on Infinite Earths pervade a sense of the world ending in each character's soul, bringing hidden fear and desires to the surface throughout this intense storyline. Batman #400 -- The final(?) pre-reboot Batman story in which he takes on most of his rogues gallery at one time. Pretty good story, and we get our first glimpses of an angrier, grittier Batman in official continuity. In many ways, I feel this story was the prototype for what Batman became after the reboot.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 28, 2014 10:54:42 GMT -5
The first couple of Cavalier stories from the '40s. Captured "my" Batman - Operatic, tounge in cheek, and written by creators who were paying attention to what was going on in the visual arts - Or at least surrealism.
Plus the Cavalier tries to steal a live whale, which is the best plot for a Batman story.
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Post by MDG on Jul 28, 2014 11:55:41 GMT -5
BTW, I didn’t care for the reunion Engelhart and Rogers did a few years ago. Rogers’ art hadn’t evolved, the plot and dialogue were unimpressive, and the whole thing smacked of Larry McMurtry’s piss-poor prequels and sequels to that bittersweet beauty of a cactus rose, Lonesome Dove. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, but especially this. Comics are filled with examples of trying to make lightning strike twice, and it seldom works.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 28, 2014 12:09:29 GMT -5
BTW, I didn’t care for the reunion Engelhart and Rogers did a few years ago. Rogers’ art hadn’t evolved, the plot and dialogue were unimpressive, and the whole thing smacked of Larry McMurtry’s piss-poor prequels and sequels to that bittersweet beauty of a cactus rose, Lonesome Dove. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, but especially this. Comics are filled with examples of trying to make lightning strike twice, and it seldom works. Right. I wanted it to work, but it just didn't... Part of the power of that original arc was that it basically came out of nowhere. A classic case of artist and writer and inker (and colorist, too) exceeding the sum of their parts.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 28, 2014 13:11:14 GMT -5
"How To Be the Batman" in Detective Comics #190 is one of my favorite unknown gems among classic Batman stories. The villain is Dr. Sampson, a psychologist who uses his knowledge of how people will react to take advantage of them and commit crimes. I don't think he ever appeared again, but I think it would be cool if somebody brought him back as an Arkham Asylum staff member gone bad. (And he shouldn't be confused with another psychologist named Sampson running around among the super-beings.)
Batman gets dosed with a gas that gives him amnesia, and this is where it gets good. Robin has to explain to Batman all sorts of bizarre things: Why he's wearing a costume, why he fights crime, why he chose a bat. And Amnesia Batman is sort of taken aback by the whole thing. Some sample dialogue:
What a weird car! Is it yours?
Are you sure I'm this -- what did you call him -- Batman?
Then Robin shows him the Bat-Cave and the Hall of Trophies, to which Amnesia Batman responds:
They're weird, but they don't mean anything to me! What am I, anyway -- a museum collector, or what?
And then:
It doesn't make sense! If I'm a millionaire, why should I secretly be a detective?
Of course, everything works out in the end.
What I love most about it is some subtle deconstruction (if that's the right word) of the Batman myth, way back in the early 1950s! The writers knew what they were doing, they knew how profoundly silly it all was, and that perspective pokes through in these comics from time to time.
I voted for it in the recent Top Batman Stories poll at CSBG, and it didn't crack the Top 75.
There is no way War Games is better than this story. (Maybe if you considered the Paul Gulacy chapters by themselves. Maybe.)
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Jul 28, 2014 13:53:32 GMT -5
"How To Be the Batman" in Detective Comics #190 is one of my favorite unknown gems among classic Batman stories. The villain is Dr. Sampson, a psychologist who uses his knowledge of how people will react to take advantage of them and commit crimes. I don't think he ever appeared again, but I think it would be cool if somebody brought him back as an Arkham Asylum staff member gone bad. (And he shouldn't be confused with another psychologist named Sampson running around among the super-beings.)
Batman gets dosed with a gas that gives him amnesia, and this is where it gets good. Robin has to explain to Batman all sorts of bizarre things: Why he's wearing a costume, why he fights crime, why he chose a bat. And Amnesia Batman is sort of taken aback by the whole thing. Some sample dialogue:
What a weird car! Is it yours?
Are you sure I'm this -- what did you call him -- Batman?
Then Robin shows him the Bat-Cave and the Hall of Trophies, to which Amnesia Batman responds:
They're weird, but they don't mean anything to me! What am I, anyway -- a museum collector, or what?
And then:
It doesn't make sense! If I'm a millionaire, why should I secretly be a detective?
Of course, everything works out in the end.
What I love most about it is some subtle deconstruction (if that's the right word) of the Batman myth, way back in the early 1950s! The writers knew what they were doing, they knew how profoundly silly it all was, and that perspective pokes through in these comics from time to time.
I voted for it in the recent Top Batman Stories poll at CSBG, and it didn't crack the Top 75.
There is no way War Games is better than this story. (Maybe if you considered the Paul Gulacy chapters by themselves. Maybe.)
That sounds like a lot of fun. It's in my collection. I'll have to read it tonight.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 28, 2014 14:42:34 GMT -5
Great choice, Hoosier! I love that story for just the reason you mentioned, the application of the rational to the fanciful. Allow me to add from Batman #47 “The Origin of the Batman,” which I first read in a great Batman annual (the first Batman annual that didn't feature scenes or covers from the stories within, btw). It may not be forgotten, but in this age of constantly changing origins, I offer it as proof of the power of the Batman story. The cover of the annual nicely emphasizes the film noir aspect of the story, which also incorporated elements of the classic movie M. The story is an early example of retro-fitting done skillfully, as Batman finally finds the gunman who murdered his parents. Every aspect of the story contributes to its mythic power. I vividly remember reading it when I bought that annual and feeling as if I'd read a canonical tale. It still holds up, if only for that moment when Batman comes face to face with Joe Chill.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 28, 2014 14:58:56 GMT -5
Great choice, Hoosier! I love that story for just the reason you mentioned, the application of the rational to the fanciful. Allow me to add from Batman #47 “The Origin of the Batman,” which I first read in a great Batman annual (the first Batman annual that didn't feature scenes or covers from the stories within, btw). It may not be forgotten, but in this age of constantly changing origins, I offer it as proof of the power of the Batman story. The cover of the annual nicely emphasizes the film noir aspect of the story, which also incorporated elements of the classic movie M. The story is an early example of retro-fitting done skillfully, as Batman finally finds the gunman who murdered his parents. Every aspect of the story contributes to its mythic power. I vividly remember reading it when I bought that annual and feeling as if I'd read a canonical tale. It still holds up, if only for that moment when Batman comes face to face with Joe Chill. "The Origin of the Batman" is my very favorite Batman story. I have a very beat-up copy of Batman #198 that I got for $1 in the 1990s. (The back cover is missing.)
So, yeah, great choice, Prince Hal. It's also reprinted in The Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told, which is probably where I first saw it.
"How To Be the Batman" was reprinted in the 1961 Batman Annual, along with a bunch of other stories with the theme "1,001 Secrets of Batman and Robin."
The 1961 Batman Annual was reprinted in 1999, and this is where I first read it. The 1999 reprint is probably the most cost-effective way to read "How To Be the Batman."
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Post by thebeastofyuccaflats on Jul 28, 2014 15:21:42 GMT -5
Here's a couple...
Legends Of The Dark Knight #32-34 ("Blades"): Superhero noir on par with Mask Of The Phantasm. Plus an opportunity to see Tim Sale sans Jeph Loeb
Batman #521 & 522 ("Fast Train To The Wet Dark" & "Swamp Things"): My personal favorite tale from perhaps my favorite run in my misspent youth-- i.e., Doug Moench & Kelley Jones. Also probably should have been the end of Killer Croc.
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Post by gothos on Jul 28, 2014 15:48:03 GMT -5
One under-celebrated story is the untitled Bat-tale in DETECTIVE #34, where the hero encounters the very surrealistic/Satanic villain "the Duc D'Orterre." He was a perfect one-shot villain, and I'm happy no one's ever thought to bring him back.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 28, 2014 16:42:26 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 28, 2014 16:51:06 GMT -5
And guess what! I found "How To Be the Batman" on the Web as well! The blog is in Spanish but the story itself is in English.
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