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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 18, 2016 2:05:02 GMT -5
What makes you say they were MacGuffins? Mc·Guf·fin məˈɡəfin/ nounBRITISH noun: MacGuffin an object or device in a movie or a book that serves merely as a trigger for the plot. The Cosmic Cube and the Soul Gems both interchangeably exist to grant Thanos power. There is no back story in regard to them, no specific unique properties, nothing about them that justifies their existence beyond furthering the plot. By that criteria, every object or character not sufficiently developed, would be a MacGuffin. I think that the defining factor, is whether it plays a role throughout the story, or it's forgotten earlier on. Both the Cosmic Cube as well as the Soul Gems, play a role up to the end. another on the Gardener's, and yet a third on the Stranger's. I enjoyed how they popped up one by one, hinting at some mysterious origin, without things being too explicit. Where did these moments take place? The Avengers vs. Thanos tpb does not include them. In Marvel Team-Up #55, the Stranger fights for possession of the rest. We see up to three of them, and Warlock is making way towards earth. Why they chose to leave this one out of the TPB is a mistake on their part, seeing how they included other, less relevant, issues. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Aug 18, 2016 2:19:51 GMT -5
Great discussion. I read Infinity Gauntlet for the first time, including all the tie ins about two years ago. I did find some of the extra stuff hard to get through that didn't really seem to relate to the story in a big way. At the same time I want to go through it again as I feel I'm a lot more experience reading comics than I was at the time. From what I remember, while I liked the narrative, overall it was really hard to buy that Thanos would be that stupid to let anyone have even a small enough chance to vanquish his goal. Especially if he's supposed to essentially be so omnipotent he can be everywhere at any given time. I just don't see how Adam Warlock and company could come up with a plan that Thanos wouldn't already be 100% aware of. I guess that is the issue with making Thanos so powerful that he shouldn't be able to be stopped. I do remember enjoying it though. Especially for Ron Lim and George Perez's art. I liked the way Lim illustrated Silver Surfer always with several big gleams surrounding his body. Perez was just a master at everything. I'm going through his Titans run with Wolfman right now, and reading that it reminds me how much better he got by the time Infinity Guantlet was released. Even things like his rock rumble details, it's a lot more versed here. There is a panel in particular where Adam Warlock I think contacts Dr. Strange. It's a splash page, and it's one of the best panels I remember seeing from George. Awesome stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 2:21:33 GMT -5
Mc·Guf·fin məˈɡəfin/ nounBRITISH noun: MacGuffin an object or device in a movie or a book that serves merely as a trigger for the plot. The Cosmic Cube and the Soul Gems both interchangeably exist to grant Thanos power. There is no back story in regard to them, no specific unique properties, nothing about them that justifies their existence beyond furthering the plot. By that criteria, every object or character not sufficiently developed, would be a MacGuffin. I think that the defining factor, is whether it plays a role throughout the story, or it's forgotten earlier on. Both the Cosmic Cube as well as the Soul Gems, play a role up to the end. Where did these moments take place? The Avengers vs. Thanos tpb does not include them. In Marvel Team-Up #55, the Stranger fights for possession of the rest. We see up to three of them, and Warlock is making way towards earth. Why they chose to leave this one out of the TPB is a mistake on their part, seeing how they included other, less relevant, issues. The classic MacGuffin in film is the Maltese Falcon, the movie is even named after it, it features through the entire film, but it's still a MacGuffin, you could replace it with something else as long as it gets the plot moving forward. The plot-someone wants it, someone else has it, still stands if the Maltese Falcon were the Ivory YoYo or the Millennium Falcon as long as someone wants it and someone else has it because it's function in the story is launching the plot in motion. The Comic Cube and the Infinity Gems are there to do the same thing and could be replaced by any number of items and the plot would still be triggered. How long or how much it is featured in the story is irrelevant to its status as a MacGuffin. Now, mind you a McGuffin is an object, not a character so no not any under developed character would be a MacGuffin because characters aren't objects, and therefore not MacGuffins. -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 18, 2016 4:25:39 GMT -5
Yeah, to call the Infinity Gems a mere Mcguffin is to demean them. They are highly sought after and protected by beings of great power usually. Bendis wrote a nice story surrounding them being acquired by The Hood. It really is a great use for the Gems. In the mini series " The illuminati" Reed, Tony, Namor, Dr.Strange,Black Bolt and professor X each have and hide one of the Gems and the Hood goes after them. It takes all of the Avengers from both titles to stop him. Really a good story.
It takes place in the 2010 Avengers title in issues #7-12
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 18, 2016 4:31:33 GMT -5
The Comic Cube and the Infinity Gems are there to do the same thing and could be replaced by any number of items and the plot would still be triggered. How long or how much it is featured in the story is irrelevant to its status as a MacGuffin. Now, mind you a McGuffin is an object, not a character so no not any under developed character would be a MacGuffin because characters aren't objects, and therefore not MacGuffins. First paragraph from the wikipedia: The Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gems couldn't be replaced by any number of items(*), because they were exceptional items necessary to the plot, not just as a trigger, if you didn't use them, you would've needed to create others of similar exceptionality. Thanos doesn't do what he does, to obtain those objects, he needs them for a goal, they're instrumental, not motivational. Bottom line, without objects of such power, Thanos would've turned out to be quite a different character, with more limited goals and much less of an impact. Not that irrelevant, for how long it's featured, it would appear. The possibility of one being at the start, middle and end of the story, isn't precluded, but is unusual and certainly not the case here, where not only do those objects occupy the center stage, but they're part of Thanos temporary success and subsequent defeat. (*) Any number of items as in, items of a different nature. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 18, 2016 4:36:47 GMT -5
Yeah, to call the Infinity Gems a mere Mcguffin is to demean them. I don't know it that's sax intention, a MacGuffin is a good resource and can be quite enjoyable, if properly implemented, but the thing is, The Cosmic Cube and The Infinity Gems can't be categorised as MacGuffins, because of their exceptionality, it's like saying that Excalibur is a MacGuffin, in the Arthurian legend. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 18, 2016 4:43:49 GMT -5
This is the cover to the Illuminati #2 . It's worth reading the entire series .  |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 18, 2016 8:59:35 GMT -5
By that criteria, every object or character not sufficiently developed, would be a MacGuffin. yes. If you object to the term, then let's just say that both the Cosmic Cube and the Soul Gem were interchangeable cliches. How many books, movies, and television show episodes are about a would-be evil ruler seeking an object that will grant him/her immeasurable power without any real explanation as to what the object is or why it grants that power? It's one of the older tropes out there. I will have to check that out. It just might change my feeling on Starlin's treatment of the soul gems. |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 18, 2016 9:25:32 GMT -5
I will have to check that out. It just might change my feeling on Starlin's treatment of the soul gems. Okay, just read it. Yeah, it definitely gives more of a sense of meaning to the Soul Gems, and it creates a mystery around them that I could see causing resentment for folks when Starlin so thoroughly explained them away twenty years later. But it's interesting to note this was a Bill Mantlo story, not a Starlin one. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 18, 2016 10:35:20 GMT -5
another on the Gardener's, and yet a third on the Stranger's. I enjoyed how they popped up one by one, hinting at some mysterious origin, without things being too explicit. Where did these moments take place? The Avengers vs. Thanos tpb does not include them. Oh, that's a poor choice on Marvel's part! It happened in Marvel Team-up #55, in which Warlock returns to Earth and encounters Spider-Man trapped in a rocket, causing it to land on a garden located on the moon. (Warlock is gigantic at first, as seen in the last few issues of his mag, but resumes his normal size with barely an explanation. I think it was revealed later on that his being a giant was an illusion of some kind. Anyway). The garden is tended by the Gardener, and I believe it is the forst time we encounter that particular Elder of the universe. He seems to be a kindly and wise old man, using his own infinity stone to help things grow. The Stranger then shows up, intent on stealing both the Gardener's and Warlock's gems. The Gardener at forst refuses to fight, but eventually has no choice if he is to save the life of his guests. The Stranger is beaten and has to flee, and a despondent Gardener abandons his gem, which has now been corrupted by violence and is now "only a weapon". (That's where Thanos will recover it, just lying on the moon). Quite a good story by Chris Claremont, (*Edit* : shaxper notified me that it's by Bill Mantlo!*) and pretty art by John Byrne! I recommend it. |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 18, 2016 10:37:47 GMT -5
Quite a good story by Chris Claremont, with pretty art by John Byrne! I recommend it. Bill Mantlo, actually, and yes, I just read it and enjoyed it quite a bit! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 18, 2016 11:01:38 GMT -5
Warlock is gigantic at first, as seen in the last few issues of his mag, but resumes his normal size with barely an explanation. Well, it's "explained" on page four. I didn't remember that and, honestly, I wish I could forget about the whole size ordeal.  |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 18, 2016 11:03:11 GMT -5
Warlock is gigantic at first, as seen in the last few issues of his mag, but resumes his normal size with barely an explanation. Well, it's "explained" on page four. I didn't remember that and, honestly, I wish I could forget about the whole size ordeal. Yeah, Mantlo's solution made even less sense than the original predicament. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 18, 2016 18:23:35 GMT -5
Well, it's "explained" on page four. I didn't remember that and, honestly, I wish I could forget about the whole size ordeal. Yeah, Mantlo's solution made even less sense than the original predicament. That made no sense whatsoever, in fact, because Warlock first said that drifting through space, his molecules had somehow grown apart... However, he had just recently interacted with several characters whose size was normal, and nothing seemed amiss. I'm quite happy that Mantlo brushed the whole thing under the carpet in a few panels. |
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Post by shaxper on Aug 18, 2016 19:00:06 GMT -5
Infinity Gauntlet #1-3
So the devastation gets bigger each issue, while Thanos stands around with absolutely no plan, clearly setting himself up to lose in the end (as Vision points out in #3, he has always been his own undoing. It's clear this is where IG is heading as well). It's almost tedious. Existential self exploration doesn't lend itself well to a visual medium, especially not the mainstream superhero genre, and especially not for multiple issues.
But the unique twist thus far is both the best and worst thing about Infinity Gauntlet -- the heroes are utterly useless. We spend all this time watching them gather and coordinate only to learn that they stand a zero percent chance of stopping Thanos (and I think, in the original Thanos Saga, ISAAC computed their odds at .02 percent).
On the one hand, this is ballsy: a major superhero event where the superheroes are useless...how provocative. On the other, it kills the pacing of the story. We have no hope anyone's actually going to succeed in stopping Thanos, so there is no tension building. Heck, once half the universe's population died, and California and Japan fell into the ocean, it became obvious things were somehow going to get reset in the end; Marvel wasn't going to leave half their characters removed from existence and major portions of the world gone. So there's absolutely no tension to be found anywhere in this story. We know Thanos will lose, we know nothing the heroes are doing is going to lead to that occurring, and we know any sacrifices made in an effort to bring about that ending will be undone.
It's a great idea, but it's not working as a story.
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