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Retcons
Aug 22, 2016 12:57:44 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 22, 2016 12:57:44 GMT -5
Good: Wally Wests parents were not the perfect people depicted in New Teen Titans issues but rather his mom was a nag and his father was a sleeper agent for the Manhunters. Bad: Barrys father was framed for killing Barrys mother. That was totally pointless. But then, so was bringing Barry back in the first place. The most interesting thing he ever did was die, and bringing him back sidelined Wally (who by then had a sizeable established fanbase) and also robbed DC of their only real martyr.
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Retcons
Aug 22, 2016 12:58:57 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 22, 2016 12:58:57 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I liked it when Lorna Dane was NOT the daughter of Magneto. I quite prefer her as a character independent from the Lehnsherr/Eisenhardt family. Leave the family woes to Alex. Conversely, I liked it when Pietro and Wanda were children of Magneto. It retroactively added much irony to their interactions while they were all in the Brotherhood, and it was a baffling move that Marvel backtracked on that. I don't even know who their parents are right now. A gypsy couple named Maximoff.
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Retcons
Aug 22, 2016 13:05:35 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 22, 2016 13:05:35 GMT -5
As I said earlier, I really don't see how Krypton had that much to do with "forming the quintessance of the character". Superman's character was formed by his having been raised as the son of the Kents. Byrne just recognized that, and actually made him into a real, believable and interesting character for the first time in fifty years. Hadn't seen this, tin. You really have to check out the stories published before you started reading, I guess, because it's all there. Byrne recognized nothing except what he wanted to see. As I said, I'd read plenty of those earlier stories, and I've read more since. They just made no real impression on me, and still don't. I'm sorry, I just don't see the appeal of the pre-Crisis Superman. He was a cardboard character with a cardboard supporting cast and his incredible (meaning that in the literal sense) powers and simplistic storylines just never interested me. I need a sense of realism in a character in order to connect with them. Probably why I was much more of a Marvel fan as a kid. And also why I can never see the appeal of Fawcett's Captain Marvel.
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Retcons
Aug 22, 2016 13:09:03 GMT -5
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 22, 2016 13:09:03 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I liked it when Lorna Dane was NOT the daughter of Magneto. Especially as her NOT being the daughter of Magneto in spite of the red herring of her magnetic powers was a major plot point when she was first introduced! I first came across the lousy "Lorna is Magneto's daughter after all" retcon in one of Morrison's X-Men issues, in which she suddenly had developed a deep affection for her "father", but I don't think it was his idea... Which writer came up with that uninspired concept?
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 22, 2016 13:27:43 GMT -5
Hadn't seen this, tin. You really have to check out the stories published before you started reading, I guess, because it's all there. Byrne recognized nothing except what he wanted to see. As I said, I'd read plenty of those earlier stories, and I've read more since. They just made no real impression on me, and still don't. I'm sorry, I just don't see the appeal of the pre-Crisis Superman. He was a cardboard character with a cardboard supporting cast and his incredible (meaning that in the literal sense) powers and simplistic storylines just never interested me. I need a sense of realism in a character in order to connect with them. Probably why I was much more of a Marvel fan as a kid. And also why I can never see the appeal of Fawcett's Captain Marvel. I guess everyone's mileage varies. Of course, we all leave ourselves wide open when we argue that one comic book hero is more believable than another.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 22, 2016 13:31:38 GMT -5
Conversely, I liked it when Pietro and Wanda were children of Magneto. It retroactively added much irony to their interactions while they were all in the Brotherhood, and it was a baffling move that Marvel backtracked on that. I don't even know who their parents are right now. Wanda changes reality whenever she has a fight with her parents!!! I'm surprised nobody ever bothered to do a DNA test on these two and on Magneto, even if Charles Xavier is a world-famous geneticist and even if the twins would certainly have liked to prove that they were not Mags's children. Even if Moira had Magneto's DNA on record. But not only aren't they Magneto's children, they're not even mutants anymore. Something that escaped Cerebro and generations of advanced Sentinels. Something that eluded those master geneticists, the Inhumans, when they anguished about Pietro and Crystal's kid being an Inhuman-mutant hybrid. Something that Wanda's spell "no more mutants" didn't stop to consider. And to think that Jim Shooter once objected to a scene in the first attempted JLA-Avengers crossover because Pietro was running too fast in it! There's an editor who actually tried to keep his comic books line consistent.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 22, 2016 13:32:07 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I liked it when Lorna Dane was NOT the daughter of Magneto. Especially as her NOT being the daughter of Magneto in spite of the red herring of her magnetic powers was a major plot point when she was first introduced! I first came across the lousy "Lorna is Magneto's daughter after all" retcon in one of Morrison's X-Men issues, in which she suddenly had developed a deep affection for her "father", but I don't think it was his idea... Which writer came up with that uninspired concept? Chuck Austen. Master of the uninspired concept. He was also the one who decided Nightcrawler's father was a demon, because...well...he looks a bit demonic. And he created the second Captain Britain, a character who subsequently vanished into limbo because she was completely pointless.
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Retcons
Aug 22, 2016 13:47:55 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 22, 2016 13:47:55 GMT -5
As I said, I'd read plenty of those earlier stories, and I've read more since. They just made no real impression on me, and still don't. I'm sorry, I just don't see the appeal of the pre-Crisis Superman. He was a cardboard character with a cardboard supporting cast and his incredible (meaning that in the literal sense) powers and simplistic storylines just never interested me. I need a sense of realism in a character in order to connect with them. Probably why I was much more of a Marvel fan as a kid. And also why I can never see the appeal of Fawcett's Captain Marvel. I guess everyone's mileage varies. Of course, we all leave ourselves wide open when we argue that one comic book hero is more believable than another. It's all in the characterization. Superman back then just never seemed to me to have any. On the other hand, Alan Moore's Marvelman, for instance, is probably as powerful as Superman, if not moreso, but he was treated as a real person, with real hopes and fears and believable motivations. Likewise Doctor Manhattan or Starlin's Adam Warlock, or even the Silver Surfer when he's done right. Pre-Crisis, I could never really engage with most of DC's "big" characters because they just seemed so thin in terms of characterization. Clark Kent, Barry Allen, Ray Palmer...basically, their entire personalities could be summed up as "he's a nice bloke and he fights crime". The more minor characters and books were always far more interesting to me. Ditko's Shade, Swamp Thing, Steel, Star Hunters, the JSA and the Freedom Fighters, then all of Roy Thomas's stuff with the Golden Age characters...my favourite member of the JLA was, and still is to this day, Red Tornado! Batman was interesting, admittedly, though I still never really felt compelled to follow his books until Doug Moench got hold of them the first time 'round.
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Post by Mormel on Aug 22, 2016 14:40:20 GMT -5
Especially as her NOT being the daughter of Magneto in spite of the red herring of her magnetic powers was a major plot point when she was first introduced! I first came across the lousy "Lorna is Magneto's daughter after all" retcon in one of Morrison's X-Men issues, in which she suddenly had developed a deep affection for her "father", but I don't think it was his idea... Which writer came up with that uninspired concept? Chuck Austen. Master of the uninspired concept. He was also the one who decided Nightcrawler's father was a demon, because...well...he looks a bit demonic. And it didn't stop there, as Austen tried to push the concept of several competing 'races' of mutants, like the demon-like Neyaphem (which Nightcrawler and Azazel were supposed to belong to), angel-like Cheyarafim (Warren Worthington among others) and Lupines (Maximus Lobo). Thank goodness no other writer ran with that.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 22, 2016 14:41:43 GMT -5
Chuck Austen. Master of the uninspired concept. He was also the one who decided Nightcrawler's father was a demon, because...well...he looks a bit demonic. And it didn't stop there, as Austen tried to push the concept of several competing 'races' of mutants, like the demon-like Neyaphem (which Nightcrawler and Azazel were supposed to belong to), angel-like Cheyarafim (Warren Worthington among others) and Lupines (Maximus Lobo). Thank goodness no other writer ran with that. More mutants. Just what Marvel needed. Oh, and there are never enough demons, either.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 22, 2016 18:52:17 GMT -5
I'm in agreement with Prince Hal with disliking the retconned Byrne version of Krypton. Bleak and cold, who would care that Krypton blew up. The Byrne version-Krypton deserved it!!
Now being that I grew up with the early 60s Superman family obviously gives me a warm nostalgic feel for them. But even being objective, you can see the fascinating world-building mythos that was taking place by Weisinger and his talented writing staff starting in the late 1950s. First with the intro of Brainiac, then the silver age Fortress Of Solitude. the bottle city of Kandor, the Phantom Zone, Supergirl's into, the Legion of Superheroes, the varieties of Kryptonite, Bizarro, Lori Lemaris.. many good story elements that drove hundreds of tales.
And Krypton being a bright, futuristic world was rather common in how Americans looked to the future at that time. Generally it was portrayed that way in regular SF until the 1960s. Star Trek was part of that optimistic future view. The race to the moon that was concurrent and the rapid advance of modern conveniences and innovations gave the public hope. We'll all have flying cars, robot butlers etc, just like The Jetsons. I couldn't wait for Woody Allen's Orgasmatron from his movie Sleeper. Juxtapose that with the sterility of Byrne's Krypton and believe me, I didn't clamour to read more of John's version of that world. But I wanted instead to read more of the Jewel Mountains of Krypton, see Krypto chasing meteorites through space, see Argo City traveling through the universe under a dome.
I was also dismayed when they de-aged the Kents. It took a lot of that old-fashioned Americana out of the picture. The grey-haired mom, baking her homemade pies for the family and Jonathon Kent's sage advice worked better when he looked that he lead a full life. They were supposed to be Ma and Pa Kettle, not newlyweds
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Post by coinilius on Aug 22, 2016 23:56:34 GMT -5
Ma and Pa were still old in the present day stories though, they were just younger when they found Clark - meaning they were still old and grey and making apple pies and giving sage advice in the present. Personally, I think there are good and bad points to both versions of the Kents; it depends on which version of the story you want to tell.
Having loving and supportive parents who are there to visit and talk to and who are also the heroes closest confidants actually strikes me as pretty unique amongst the long underwear crowd, and it's a status quo that I think has been used to good effect in other media as well, such as in Lois and Clark.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 23, 2016 0:05:46 GMT -5
I've really never understood the concern about the Kents. I make no bones about disliking Superman for any of a zillion reasons, but they are one of the better parts of a sad character. And I honestly don't see where Superman gained anything by the Kents dying before he became Superman.
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Retcons
Aug 23, 2016 0:30:10 GMT -5
Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 23, 2016 0:30:10 GMT -5
Ma and Pa were still old in the present day stories though, they were just younger when they found Clark - meaning they were still old and grey and making apple pies and giving sage advice in the present. Personally, I think there are good and bad points to both versions of the Kents; it depends on which version of the story you want to tell. Having loving and supportive parents who are there to visit and talk to and who are also the heroes closest confidants actually strikes me as pretty unique amongst the long underwear crowd, and it's a status quo that I think has been used to good effect in other media as well, such as in Lois and Clark. I was speaking about this issue from 1968 where some alien serum de-ages the Kents. Why the editors went this route I can only guess. Maybe they thought that since most Superman readers were about 14 years old, having parents that look middle aged was something they could identify with more than elderly parents. Since Superboy stories disappeared a few years down the road , replaced by the Legion, and I stopped reading Superman altogether, I have no idea how they aged for the balance of pre-crisis. After the crisis, it was no longer the same character anyway
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Retcons
Aug 23, 2016 1:30:38 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 23, 2016 1:30:38 GMT -5
I'm in agreement with Prince Hal with disliking the retconned Byrne version of Krypton. Bleak and cold, who would care that Krypton blew up. The Byrne version-Krypton deserved it!! Now being that I grew up with the early 60s Superman family obviously gives me a warm nostalgic feel for them. But even being objective, you can see the fascinating world-building mythos that was taking place by Weisinger and his talented writing staff starting in the late 1950s. First with the intro of Brainiac, then the silver age Fortress Of Solitude. the bottle city of Kandor, the Phantom Zone, Supergirl's into, the Legion of Superheroes, the varieties of Kryptonite, Bizarro, Lori Lemaris.. many good story elements that drove hundreds of tales. And Krypton being a bright, futuristic world was rather common in how Americans looked to the future at that time. Generally it was portrayed that way in regular SF until the 1960s. Star Trek was part of that optimistic future view. The race to the moon that was concurrent and the rapid advance of modern conveniences and innovations gave the public hope. We'll all have flying cars, robot butlers etc, just like The Jetsons. I couldn't wait for Woody Allen's Orgasmatron from his movie Sleeper. Juxtapose that with the sterility of Byrne's Krypton and believe me, I didn't clamour to read more of John's version of that world. But I wanted instead to read more of the Jewel Mountains of Krypton, see Krypto chasing meteorites through space, see Argo City traveling through the universe under a dome. I was also dismayed when they de-aged the Kents. It took a lot of that old-fashioned Americana out of the picture. The grey-haired mom, baking her homemade pies for the family and Jonathon Kent's sage advice worked better when he looked that he lead a full life. They were supposed to be Ma and Pa Kettle, not newlyweds Maybe it's a cultural thing, then. Not being American, none of that stuff meant anything to me (no idea who Ma and Pa Kettle were, and always tended to find "old fashioned Americana" a bit mystifying and slightly irritating) and Britain's sci-fi tended to lean more towards Quatermass, the Cybermen and the works of John Wyndham than Gene Rodenberry's bright hopes (possibly why Star Trek DS9 was rather more popular here than TNG with its perfect, plastic people). I just saw stuff like Bizarro, Krypto and Red Kryptonite as rather silly and childish even as a child. I don't see that we needed to care that Krypton blew up; Krypton wasn't meant to be the focus, it's barely mentioned in the original Golden Age stories, is it? Certainly not in the original origin story. Its sole purpose is to not exist anymore, surely, so why can't it be a sterile dystopian society rather than this perfect place full of impossibly good looking people who inexplicably all wear sweat bands?
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