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Post by tingramretro on Aug 27, 2016 0:30:14 GMT -5
Yeah, so true. Hey, remember that issue with the famous story, "To Kill Some Nuns?" Love some "Contra" America stories! Love the New Blackhawks, made up of Nato members, flying over Bosnia in 1994 with their battlecry "Look Ma, No Boots On The Ground" I suspect that I am missing something here simply by virtue of not being American or understanding much of the mindset.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 27, 2016 0:34:10 GMT -5
I would be OK telling JSA stories set in the 40's & 50's instead of trying to make them work in the present day. It is either that or throwing characters into limbo, suspended animation or having a long lifespan due to magic, etc. to explain why they still appear young today. Thing is, I like te JSA as the veteran heroes the new generation look up to (tat was the version I first encountered) and never had any problem with the retarded-ageing-due-to-magical-radiation thing. It made perfect sense, as far as I can see. At least as much as Captain America's iceberg ever did.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 27, 2016 0:35:58 GMT -5
Ting, this would be like my watching the two famous film versions of Henry V, Olivier's (1944) and Branagh's (1989) and willfully ignoring the difference in tone and theme each captures because, hey, World War Two and the Falklands War had no significance to me, as I was born after the first and the latter didn't involve my country. I can assure you that the historical context is crucial to an appreciation of both films. There are universal truths that apply to every war, I'll grant you, but the "background," as you called it, of each war is indeed significant, and an Iron Man conceived in Afghanistan should be quite a bit different than the one conceived in Vietnam.. In what way? He was captured by a rather nondescript generic foreign warlord, injured, built the suit, escaped, and came home. It doesn't matter where or when it happened. It's simply a convenient backdrop for him to build the suit against. It's barely mentioned afterwards. At least be consistent. Previously you said only Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes was canon. Here you say Iron Man's original writer's are not canon. So, some original versions work for you and some don't? Sherlock Holmes fighting Nazis does not count but Iron Man getting his armor first time in Afghanistan does? Explain your rules please
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 27, 2016 5:10:11 GMT -5
I agree that it doesn't matter which war it was that caused the beginning of Iron Man. It seemed to work well in the movie version. They have modified , some what, the origin of the Fantastic Four along the way. I don't think they mention trying to " beat the commies" into space.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 27, 2016 5:29:58 GMT -5
I would be ok with them not mentioning which war it was, like in last week's Black Widow issue, but if you say it was another war, you're changing the dates. If all the stories we read happening in the 60's, no longer belong in that time period, then we're talking about different characters with an almost identical biography, but not the same ones.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 27, 2016 5:39:13 GMT -5
In what way? He was captured by a rather nondescript generic foreign warlord, injured, built the suit, escaped, and came home. It doesn't matter where or when it happened. It's simply a convenient backdrop for him to build the suit against. It's barely mentioned afterwards. At least be consistent. Previously you said only Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes was canon. Here you say Iron Man's original writer's are not canon. So, some original versions work for you and some don't? Sherlock Holmes fighting Nazis does not count but Iron Man getting his armor first time in Afghanistan does? Explain your rules please Not "my" rules; reread my earlier post. I'm guessing you haven't spent a lot of time discussing Holmes wth hardcore Holmesians; they basically invented the notion of canon in relation to fictional charactes and are very clear that only Conan Doyle's work counts from their viewpoint; I quite like Holmes, but not enough to care one way or another about the canon. I can be quite opinionated on Doctor Who canon, however...
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 27, 2016 5:40:46 GMT -5
I would be ok with them not mentioning which war it was, like in last week's Black Widow issue, but if you say it was another war, you're changing the dates. If all the stories we read happening in the 60's, no longer belong in that time period, then we're talking about different characters with an almost identical biography, but not the same ones. No, we are talking about the exact same characters, but existing on a sliding timescale.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 27, 2016 6:38:59 GMT -5
I would be ok with them not mentioning which war it was, like in last week's Black Widow issue, but if you say it was another war, you're changing the dates. If all the stories we read happening in the 60's, no longer belong in that time period, then we're talking about different characters with an almost identical biography, but not the same ones. No, we are talking about the exact same characters, but existing on a sliding timescale. "Exact" has a very tight definition, you can verify it yourself, if you don't trust me.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 27, 2016 9:04:28 GMT -5
They have modified , some what, the origin of the Fantastic Four along the way. I don't think they mention trying to " beat the commies" into space. "Modified" it is putting it kindly. The original origin was intact until 1989. In FF 326 (the issue where Englehart is forced to reverse his story and bring Sue and Reed back) they talk about their origin. Sue specifically refers to beating the commies. Earlier in Englehart's run (FF 309) Ben referred to being a fighter pilot in WWII. But from the moment Englehart left, the origin changed. I detail some of the changes here, but a brief list includes: The post 1989 team were born in a different era... ...and had different jobs ...with different reasons to fly into space ...from a different spaceport... ...on a different spacecraft ...they returned to Earth in a different way ...and landed in a different place ...where they gained slightly different powers ...and a different person starts the team ...and they have a different purpose. ...then their first adventure was in a different place. ...against a different Mole Man ...and so it continues, issue by issue. look closely and almost every detail is changed. Do the changes matter?The sliding timescale has reversed all of their personalities. Take Reed. Reed has opposite values today. Here are two examples: 1. The superhero registration act: the original Reed opposed it, the modern Reed supports it. What has this to do with the 1960s? Everything. In the original story Reed opposed the government (sneaking past guards to steal the spaceship). This was plausible up to the very early 1960s when the entire space program depended heavily on one man (Wernher Von Braun in the USA, Sergey Korolyov in Russia). and back then security was not as advanced as today. But every modern writer knows that one man would never have such power today. So every modern version of Reed has him highly reliant on the government. Sure, modern Reed can oppose the government, but only by being manipulative, devious. The era of the heroic loner is long gone from the space race. 2. Reed's manliness: Reed is naturally a nerd and an introvert. This is how every modern writer has to write him, as it doesn't make sense for a manly fighter to also be an obsessive lab based scientist. But the original Reed was forced into the draft. (As to why he would go overseas and not be based in the US he probably volunteered: he came from a wealthy family so had a reputation to rise to. And it would never occur to this brilliant introvert that he had limits. Reed would never volunteer for the army, but once forced into it his pride takes over) The draft is essential to his rounded character, so that places him in WWII or maybe Vietnam at the very latest. I could give more examples for Reed, and similar examples for Ben, Sue and Johnny. But time is short. You will be relieved to hear. I must stress that to most readers the 1960s links do not matter, and the changes are perhaps not noticed. So for most readers the changes are trivial. But long term fans often complain that the team's personalities have changed (though in one case, Sue, they generally approve the changes). These changes are not coincidental, but arise from removing the team from the 1960s. And the bottom line is that without the 1960s links the FF are just not a very interesting team. The lacklustre movies, and Marvel's inability to make the modern comic work despite throwing their top writers at it, are testament to the team's failure. Take the team out of the 1960s and it is no longer the Fantastic Four, it no longer works. In my view.
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Post by MDG on Aug 27, 2016 9:55:30 GMT -5
Yeah, so true. Hey, remember that issue with the famous story, "To Kill Some Nuns?" Love some "Contra" America stories! Love the New Blackhawks, made up of Nato members, flying over Bosnia in 1994 with their battlecry "Look Ma, No Boots On The Ground"
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 27, 2016 10:00:02 GMT -5
Love the New Blackhawks, made up of Nato members, flying over Bosnia in 1994 with their battlecry "Look Ma, No Boots On The Ground" Looks like a funny one. Is that from a National Lampoon?
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 27, 2016 10:01:10 GMT -5
The original origin was intact until 1989. I don't think it's a coincidence, that I stopped my holistic Spider-Man reading at December, 1989. Just then, Spidey went cosmic and I stopped caring, at least for the continuity they were selling.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 27, 2016 11:08:02 GMT -5
I just can't see the problem. As far as I'm concerned, some details may have been periodically updated but, unlike with DC, there have been no in-story universal reboots so the Marvel Universe and its inhabitants are still the same ones I've been reading about all along. And for the most part, I'm still enjoying them, as I pretty much always have.
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Post by MDG on Aug 27, 2016 17:36:04 GMT -5
Looks like a funny one. Is that from a National Lampoon?Yup
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 20:04:16 GMT -5
One of the reasons I think Batman is so popular is the character can be adapted to work in almost every decade. I agree with tolworthy that is one of the reasons the FF are not as popular today. The essence of the characters have to change to "fit" into today's world. It would be interesting to list characters that "fit" into any era & characters that work best in the time period they were created.
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