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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 20:38:29 GMT -5
The Maroto art is excellent, The story by Giffen/Newell is nearly incomprehensible and has little connection to anything that happened in the previous Amethyst series, so new fans would be lost and old fans felt dissed because it pretty much ignored what they liked about the character. It did poorly because it neither appealed to existing Amethyst fans nor had anything worthwhile to make new Amethyst fans. I like Keith Giffen, but he took the basic premise of the Amethyst idea created and developed by Dan Mishkin and tossed it out the window to do something tied into his Dr. Fate/Lords of Chaos vs. Lords of Order story he was taking with him everywhere in the DC universe on every title he did when it really had no place in the Amethyst milieu and didn't really work there. I loved the story as Giffen developed it in the Fate books he did (in the Flash back ups collected in Immortal Dr. Fate, the touches of it in his Justice League and his Dr. Fate mini that ended Kent Nelson's time as Dr. Fate), but it was out of place in the Amethyst world set up by Mishkin and had to be grafted on leaving an ugly Frankenstein's monster that had no charm, no focus and no coherence. It drove readers away from the ongoing and killed it when he took over and started the transformation, and it killed any chance the mini had of finding an audience when he continued it there. Amethyst and the Order/Chaos thing were both unique visions that worked well on their own, but they weren't chocolate and peanut butter that worked better together, they were oil and water and didn't belong together making an ugly comic no matter how pretty the artwork was.
And I'll be the voice of dissent, I thought the new-52 version was poorly done with decent art but unlikable characters, cliche-riddeen stories and ham-fisted execution of what should have been the subtleties of court intrigue, plots and characterizations needed to make that kind of story work. And the whole thing lacked any kind of sense of wonder that characterized the earlier series at was at the core of its appeal. It tried to be Game of Thrones (something it was ill-suited for despite the Houses set up) instead of being Amethyst. The DC nation shorts far better at capturing the sense of wonder even if they wandered far afield from the core concepts of the series.
-M
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Post by rom on Sept 15, 2016 22:40:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the review. I have honestly never read Amethyst to any great extent, but it definitely looks like something I would like. I never gave it a chance back in the '80's because I honestly thought I wouldn't like it due to the strong female-centric themes. However, I've gotten a lot more open-minded since then. I like sword & sorcery - and, I liked all of DC's output that they produced in the '80's (that I did read). And, from what I've seen of the art, it's great as well.
I have 0 interest in DC's "New 52" series; I'm not collecting any new DC or Marvel series, and haven't for about 15 years. My primary interest these days are reprints from the '60's - '80's of DC & Marvel series, and some independents from that time period as well.
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 15, 2016 23:37:22 GMT -5
 This was the first of 3 of these that DC released over the next 12 months. The cover here is by Ed Hannigan and Dick Giordano. The first page has Dick Giordano's  Jan Duursema's Arion Lord of Atlantis  Roger Slifer's Omega Men with art by Tod Smith & Mike DeCarlo  Don Heck's Wonder Woman  Jim Aparo's Batman and the Outsiders  Ernie Colon's Amethyst  George Perez on the New Teen Titans  G. I. Combat by Joe Kubert  and the Legion of Super-Heroes (and Substitute Heroes) by Keith Giffen and Larry Mahlstedt 
to be continued |
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 15, 2016 23:46:01 GMT -5
The Maroto art is excellent, The story by Giffen/Newell is nearly incomprehensible and has little connection to anything that happened in the previous Amethyst series, so new fans would be lost and old fans felt dissed because it pretty much ignored what they liked about the character. It did poorly because it neither appealed to existing Amethyst fans nor had anything worthwhile to make new Amethyst fans. I like Keith Giffen, but he took the basic premise of the Amethyst idea created and developed by Dan Mishkin and tossed it out the window to do something tied into his Dr. Fate/Lords of Chaos vs. Lords of Order story he was taking with him everywhere in the DC universe on every title he did when it really had no place in the Amethyst milieu and didn't really work there. I loved the story as Giffen developed it in the Fate books he did (in the Flash back ups collected in Immortal Dr. Fate, the touches of it in his Justice League and his Dr. Fate mini that ended Kent Nelson's time as Dr. Fate), but it was out of place in the Amethyst world set up by Mishkin and had to be grafted on leaving an ugly Frankenstein's monster that had no charm, no focus and no coherence. It drove readers away from the ongoing and killed it when he took over and started the transformation, and it killed any chance the mini had of finding an audience when he continued it there. Amethyst and the Order/Chaos thing were both unique visions that worked well on their own, but they weren't chocolate and peanut butter that worked better together, they were oil and water and didn't belong together making an ugly comic no matter how pretty the artwork was. And I'll be the voice of dissent, I thought the new-52 version was poorly done with decent art but unlikable characters, cliche-riddeen stories and ham-fisted execution of what should have been the subtleties of court intrigue, plots and characterizations needed to make that kind of story work. And the whole thing lacked any kind of sense of wonder that characterized the earlier series at was at the core of its appeal. It tried to be Game of Thrones (something it was ill-suited for despite the Houses set up) instead of being Amethyst. The DC nation shorts far better at capturing the sense of wonder even if they wandered far afield from the core concepts of the series. -M I haven't watched the DC Nation shorts, but they appear very much in line with the original Amethyst concept. Giffen, by having it interconnected with the Order / Chaos war he was into back then, was trying to bring in more readers who didn't feel it was a kiddie comic, but maybe something more akin to fantasy / supernatural and kind of Dr Strange-ish with Mordru. Maroto's beautiful erotic artwork clearly show this is a fully grown sensual woman. While I agree the New 52 was more heavy-handed, I still liked it, and really liked the Frankenstein interaction with her. |
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Post by rom on Sept 16, 2016 0:41:48 GMT -5
Just saw the DC Nation Amethyst shorts on Youtube - interesting. Here's a link:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 0:46:14 GMT -5
The Maroto art is excellent, The story by Giffen/Newell is nearly incomprehensible and has little connection to anything that happened in the previous Amethyst series, so new fans would be lost and old fans felt dissed because it pretty much ignored what they liked about the character. It did poorly because it neither appealed to existing Amethyst fans nor had anything worthwhile to make new Amethyst fans. I like Keith Giffen, but he took the basic premise of the Amethyst idea created and developed by Dan Mishkin and tossed it out the window to do something tied into his Dr. Fate/Lords of Chaos vs. Lords of Order story he was taking with him everywhere in the DC universe on every title he did when it really had no place in the Amethyst milieu and didn't really work there. I loved the story as Giffen developed it in the Fate books he did (in the Flash back ups collected in Immortal Dr. Fate, the touches of it in his Justice League and his Dr. Fate mini that ended Kent Nelson's time as Dr. Fate), but it was out of place in the Amethyst world set up by Mishkin and had to be grafted on leaving an ugly Frankenstein's monster that had no charm, no focus and no coherence. It drove readers away from the ongoing and killed it when he took over and started the transformation, and it killed any chance the mini had of finding an audience when he continued it there. Amethyst and the Order/Chaos thing were both unique visions that worked well on their own, but they weren't chocolate and peanut butter that worked better together, they were oil and water and didn't belong together making an ugly comic no matter how pretty the artwork was. And I'll be the voice of dissent, I thought the new-52 version was poorly done with decent art but unlikable characters, cliche-riddeen stories and ham-fisted execution of what should have been the subtleties of court intrigue, plots and characterizations needed to make that kind of story work. And the whole thing lacked any kind of sense of wonder that characterized the earlier series at was at the core of its appeal. It tried to be Game of Thrones (something it was ill-suited for despite the Houses set up) instead of being Amethyst. The DC nation shorts far better at capturing the sense of wonder even if they wandered far afield from the core concepts of the series. -M I haven't watched the DC Nation shorts, but they appear very much in line with the original Amethyst concept. Giffen, by having it interconnected with the Order / Chaos war he was into back then, was trying to bring in more readers who didn't feel it was a kiddie comic, but maybe something more akin to fantasy / supernatural and kind of Dr Strange-ish with Mordru. Maroto's beautiful erotic artwork clearly show this is a fully grown sensual woman. While I agree the New 52 was more heavy-handed, I still liked it, and really liked the Frankenstein interaction with her. That's the thing Amethyst was a thirteen year old girl, not a fully grown sensual woman. And by trying to graft Amethyst into the other stuff he was doing, Giffen destroyed the basic foundation of what the series was about. Something that was unique was steamrolled into something that had to fit the shared universe because the fanboys wouldn't buy the unique thing with a young female lead, so graft it into the continuity of the DCU and transform the lead into a fan service cheesecake figure because hey that's better right? That's what the fanboys want so let's give it to them. Great except it totally alienated the audience who was reading the book and liked it because it was fresh, unique, standalone and had a young girl as the lead, but hey who want that audience in the boys club of he comic shop anyways. -M |
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 16, 2016 8:46:24 GMT -5
I haven't watched the DC Nation shorts, but they appear very much in line with the original Amethyst concept. Giffen, by having it interconnected with the Order / Chaos war he was into back then, was trying to bring in more readers who didn't feel it was a kiddie comic, but maybe something more akin to fantasy / supernatural and kind of Dr Strange-ish with Mordru. Maroto's beautiful erotic artwork clearly show this is a fully grown sensual woman. While I agree the New 52 was more heavy-handed, I still liked it, and really liked the Frankenstein interaction with her. That's the thing Amethyst was a thirteen year old girl, not a fully grown sensual woman. And by trying to graft Amethyst into the other stuff he was doing, Giffen destroyed the basic foundation of what the series was about. Something that was unique was steamrolled into something that had to fit the shared universe because the fanboys wouldn't buy the unique thing with a young female lead, so graft it into the continuity of the DCU and transform the lead into a fan service cheesecake figure because hey that's better right? That's what the fanboys want so let's give it to them. Great except it totally alienated the audience who was reading the book and liked it because it was fresh, unique, standalone and had a young girl as the lead, but hey who want that audience in the boys club of he comic shop anyways. -M I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I think it would kind of be extra cool if they left her as the original concept, but they won't. It would give her a unique place in the DCU pantheon. Stick her in a team book as that same 13 year old character and let her build an audience. Not every character can carry their own book, but that doesn't mean they're not worth building up. Perfect example in my mind is Nightcrawler. Love the character, but it's been proven he really can't carry his own series. That's not the fault of the character, or maybe even the creative team. It's just the way it is right here, right now. It's not exactly the same, but I always think back to when I worked at Schwan's selling frozen food door to door. My boss told me that they were kind of ahead of the curve and came out with frozen yogurt back in the 70's. It bombed in a HUGE way. Later, in the mid 80's, they gave it another shot, the exact same product, and the market was ready for it. |
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 16, 2016 15:56:47 GMT -5
more from that DC Sampler Carmine Infantino's Flash  Arak Son of Thunder  New Adventures of Supergirl by Carmine Infantino & Bob Oksner  Fury of Firestorm by Pat Broderick  |
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Post by rom on Sept 16, 2016 17:04:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the scans! Arak Son Of Thunder is another underappreciated comic these days; great sword & sorcery series. I remember reading this in the '80's & being quite impressed - the Tony DeZuniga art was stellar, and the storyline was unique as well - i.e., an American Indian having adventures in medieval Europe.
Ditto re: The Fury of Firestorm (I created a separate thread for this) - another fantastic series.
Nice art by Infantino on Flash & Supergirl as well.
DC in the '80's was excellent!
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Post by alxjhnsn on Sept 17, 2016 10:30:51 GMT -5
I'm an Amethyst fan - mostly the original run up to and not including Giffen. I also enjoyed the nu52 version. Story was good and I really liked Aaron Lopresti's art. I was able to commission a recreation of Amethyst #12 by Ernie Colon and Joe Rubinstein. %20and%20Joe%20Rubinstein%20(inks)%20-%20Amethyst,%20Princess%20of%20Gemworld%2012%20(recreation).jpg) Later, I bought the original art for the nu52 Swords of Sorcery cover by Lopresti. You'll notice that Amethyst is repositioned relative to the printed cover. That was a late change by DC's editors. Aaron scanned my piece, removed Amethyst, redrew here, printed and inked it. .jpg)
Click to embiggen. |
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Post by shaxper on Sept 17, 2016 10:35:33 GMT -5
I'm an Amethyst fan - mostly the original run up to and not including Giffen. I also enjoyed the nu52 version. Story was good and I really liked Aaron Lopresti's art. I was able to commission a recreation of Amethyst #12 by Ernie Colon and Joe Rubinstein. Later, I bought the original art for the nu52 Swords of Sorcery cover by Lopresti. You'll notice that Amethyst is repositioned relative to the printed cover. That was a late change by DC's editors. Aaron scanned my piece, removed Amethyst, redrew here, printed and inked it.
Click to embiggen. Incredibly impressive! Are you a particularly big Amethyst fan, or do you commission a lot of original art? Welcome to the community, by the way. It's a pleasure to have you here! |
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Post by dbutler69 on Sept 17, 2016 13:22:21 GMT -5
I never really read Amethyst, but remember the ads sparking my interest. I think I may have flipped through it at the store but never bought a copy. I do think Amethyst would have made a pretty cool action figure line, ha! I had the LSH issue where the preview comic appeared and remember her being in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Al of this applies to me, too. I thought it looked interesting, but never bought an issue, except for the LOSH preview issue. IIRC, there was some sort of tie-in between Amethyst and the Legion which was revealed later, though i don't remember exactly what it was. |
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Post by rom on Sept 17, 2016 15:44:35 GMT -5
I never really read Amethyst, but remember the ads sparking my interest. I think I may have flipped through it at the store but never bought a copy. I do think Amethyst would have made a pretty cool action figure line, ha! I had the LSH issue where the preview comic appeared and remember her being in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Al of this applies to me, too. I thought it looked interesting, but never bought an issue, except for the LOSH preview issue. IIRC, there was some sort of tie-in between Amethyst and the Legion which was revealed later, though i don't remember exactly what it was. Same with me. I may have picked Amethyst up back in the '80's if I had been more open-minded about the subject matter. In addition, I was also a kid at the time & strapped for cash - and, I honestly couldn't collect all of the titles I wanted to, since there were a plethora of new titles I liked at the time. |
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Post by alxjhnsn on Sept 17, 2016 16:34:20 GMT -5
I'm an Amethyst fan - mostly the original run up to and not including Giffen. I also enjoyed the nu52 version. Story was good and I really liked Aaron Lopresti's art. I was able to commission a recreation of Amethyst #12 by Ernie Colon and Joe Rubinstein. Later, I bought the original art for the nu52 Swords of Sorcery cover by Lopresti. You'll notice that Amethyst is repositioned relative to the printed cover. That was a late change by DC's editors. Aaron scanned my piece, removed Amethyst, redrew here, printed and inked it.
Click to embiggen. Incredibly impressive! Are you a particularly big Amethyst fan, or do you commission a lot of original art? Welcome to the community, by the way. It's a pleasure to have you here! I was a fan, but the theme to my collection is artists I like and the character I most associate with them. Colon/Amethyst fits. So, does Lopresti/Amethyst. My CAF gallery is here. |
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Post by hondobrode on Sept 17, 2016 16:43:07 GMT -5
I never really read Amethyst, but remember the ads sparking my interest. I think I may have flipped through it at the store but never bought a copy. I do think Amethyst would have made a pretty cool action figure line, ha! I had the LSH issue where the preview comic appeared and remember her being in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Al of this applies to me, too. I thought it looked interesting, but never bought an issue, except for the LOSH preview issue. IIRC, there was some sort of tie-in between Amethyst and the Legion which was revealed later, though i don't remember exactly what it was. The connection is this man  It was in the Giffen / Maroto 4 issue mini that showed the connection of Mordru and Amethyst  from Comicvine.com After the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Mordru plays a major role in the history of Gemworld, where he began his existence as Wrynn, one of the twin sons of Lord Topaz and Lady Turquoise.  Wrynn became entranced by the study of black magic as he grew older and during a summoning ritual he had been performing, he accidentally resurrected the gemstone golem called Flaw  servant of the Child, one of the Lords of Chaos. Flaw chose Wrynn as the instrument of the Lords of Chaos' plans to retake Gemworld and transformed him, granting him tremendous magical power and renamed him Mordru. During a battle with Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld, Mordru murdered his twin brother, Donal and was later sentenced with banishment from the Twelve Kingdoms of Gemworld after his defeat. However, Amethyst, not satisfied with this decree and angered over Donal's senseless murder, banished Mordru into Gemworld itself, literally merging him with the planet, where he remained for many years. This led to him developing taphephobia (the fear of being buried alive), a weakness that was often his downfall thereafter. |
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