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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 25, 2016 13:19:03 GMT -5
Like a lot of the industry greats, ego is immense and his memory may be more than a tad selective... Like others have said you have to take the good with the bad. Bottom line is I loved the comics that came out under his watch, I enjoyed the first part of Defalcos tenure, then it went pear shaped. Aside from the MAX line I didn't care for marvel under Quesada.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2016 13:42:51 GMT -5
Sometimes when someone says " I couldn't work with him" means he didn't let me do whatever I wanted to do with the characters. In his blog, he tells a story about a writer that wanted to do a story about Peter Parker discovering that he fathered an illegitimate son. He told the guy no, that Spider-man was on kids underwear and stuff and that he had to protect the image of those properties. The writer went to the press and bashed Shooter.
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 25, 2016 14:07:38 GMT -5
Sometimes when someone says " I couldn't work with him" means he didn't let me do whatever I wanted to do with the characters. In his blog, he tells a story about a writer that wanted to do a story about Peter Parker discovering that he fathered am illegitimate son. He told the guy no, that Spider-man was on kids underwear and stuff and that he had to protect the image of those properties. The writer went to the press and bashed Shooter. I'm sure he had to deal with a lot of that. I don't remember the reason Byrnes left for DC, but it was Shooters fault I'm sure. |
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 25, 2016 14:19:45 GMT -5
I hated how he pushed through the whole "Jean was never the Phoenix" thing, seeing as it was he who insisted she die to pay for her sins of galactic mass murder. It didn't absolve Jean as much as it crapped on a beautiful story and was the vehicle for Scott becoming an absolute cad.
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Post by Red Oak Kid on Sept 25, 2016 15:06:44 GMT -5
I don't even know why I'm commenting here, since I don't know what actually happened. Regarding Kirby, my impression is that Shooter's hands were pretty much tied unless he was willing to quit, which wouldn't have bothered the Marvel suits. Kirby and Ditko had unfortunately signed work for hire agreements by cashing their pay checks. I think the lawyers were mainly concerned about ownership rights to those characters. The lawyers probably did not want to give an inch on the artwork situation for fear it would start a slippery slope down to who owned Spider-man and FF.
I think Shooter did help creators who had signed more favorable contracts with Marvel.
I don't know if Shooter's lack of people skills resulted in Gene Colan leaving Marvel or if perhaps, maybe, Colan was a grumpy old man who did not want to listen to some young guy telling him what to do.
I don't believe Shooter is the devil but I believe he probably was not the most diplomatic boss.
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Post by Red Oak Kid on Sept 25, 2016 15:06:55 GMT -5
Sorry. Double post.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2016 16:48:40 GMT -5
I read both accounts from both creators.
Colan states that a Shooter kept rejecting his work and asked for corrections to the pages. Sometimes he would turn the exact same page and It was okayed by Shooter , proving to Colan that he was arbitrarily sticking it to him.
Shooters version was that Colan was phoning it in and wasn't doing his best work anymore. I guess he felt that Colan was comfortable and was just Churning out uninspired pages.
It turned out for the best when Colan went to DC. He did awesome Batman books and the great Night Force. So either he was in a rut and wasn't producing his best or Shooter didn't like him and it was time for him to go. Sometimes you get your odd situation where personalities clash.
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Post by berkley on Sept 25, 2016 19:25:34 GMT -5
I read both accounts from both creators. Colan states that a Shooter kept rejecting his work and asked for corrections to the pages. Sometimes he would turn the exact same page and It was okayed by Shooter , proving to Colan that he was arbitrarily sticking it to him. Shooters version was that Colan was phoning it in and wasn't doing his best work anymore. I guess he felt that Colan was comfortable and was just Churning out uninspired pages. It turned out for the best when Colan went to DC. He did awesome Batman books and the great Night Force. So either he was in a rut and wasn't producing his best or Shooter didn't like him and it was time for him to go. Sometimes you get your odd situation where personalities clash. It doesn't seem to have been all that odd with Shooter, though. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Sept 26, 2016 2:11:24 GMT -5
I read both accounts from both creators. Colan states that a Shooter kept rejecting his work and asked for corrections to the pages. Sometimes he would turn the exact same page and It was okayed by Shooter , proving to Colan that he was arbitrarily sticking it to him. Shooters version was that Colan was phoning it in and wasn't doing his best work anymore. I guess he felt that Colan was comfortable and was just Churning out uninspired pages. It turned out for the best when Colan went to DC. He did awesome Batman books and the great Night Force. So either he was in a rut and wasn't producing his best or Shooter didn't like him and it was time for him to go. Sometimes you get your odd situation where personalities clash. Colan did subpar work during the mid to late 70's. If Shooter gave the ok to the exact same page, maybe he noticed and just didn't want to press the issue any further. From the artist side of things, that's plain insubordination and gives the editor fair grounds for dismissal. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 26, 2016 4:39:47 GMT -5
I read both accounts from both creators. Colan states that a Shooter kept rejecting his work and asked for corrections to the pages. Sometimes he would turn the exact same page and It was okayed by Shooter , proving to Colan that he was arbitrarily sticking it to him. Shooters version was that Colan was phoning it in and wasn't doing his best work anymore. I guess he felt that Colan was comfortable and was just Churning out uninspired pages. It turned out for the best when Colan went to DC. He did awesome Batman books and the great Night Force. So either he was in a rut and wasn't producing his best or Shooter didn't like him and it was time for him to go. Sometimes you get your odd situation where personalities clash. Colan did subpar work during the mid to late 70's. If Shooter gave the ok to the exact same page, maybe he noticed and just didn't want to press the issue any further. From the artist side of things, that's plain insubordination and gives the editor fair grounds for dismissal. I guess I'm looking at it from the age factor. Just like Kirby, Ditko and the artists from the 60's their skills were on decline. It must be tough to tell someone that after all the work the've done for the company. I'm sure that Colan didn't take it well. Although, I enjoyed his work when he joined DC. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 26, 2016 5:00:34 GMT -5
I hated how he pushed through the whole "Jean was never the Phoenix" thing, seeing as it was he who insisted she die to pay for her sins of galactic mass murder. It didn't absolve Jean as much as it crapped on a beautiful story and was the vehicle for Scott becoming an absolute cad. Anyone involved in that mess shares a part of the blame, but in Shooter's defense it wasn't his idea. He just okayed a concept that allowed Jean to "come back" without giving her a pardon for killing three billion Asparagus people. But I'm with you... as EiC, as the man holding the line where the buck stops, he should have said "no". It was such a lousy idea. |
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 26, 2016 9:36:13 GMT -5
I hated how he pushed through the whole "Jean was never the Phoenix" thing, seeing as it was he who insisted she die to pay for her sins of galactic mass murder. It didn't absolve Jean as much as it crapped on a beautiful story and was the vehicle for Scott becoming an absolute cad. Anyone involved in that mess shares a part of the blame, but in Shooter's defense it wasn't his idea. He just okayed a concept that allowed Jean to "come back" without giving her a pardon for killing three billion Asparagus people. But I'm with you... as EiC, as the man holding the line where the buck stops, he should have said "no". It was such a lousy idea. Agreed. Wasn't Bob Layton the actual brain child behind it? Regardless, I would've liked Dazzler in there, or why not Maddy in an "Oracle" type role? I constantly harp on this because I came to really like Maddy, and hated what Scott did to her and how the whole thing led to her death by redundancy. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 26, 2016 9:49:00 GMT -5
I hated how he pushed through the whole "Jean was never the Phoenix" thing, seeing as it was he who insisted she die to pay for her sins of galactic mass murder. It didn't absolve Jean as much as it crapped on a beautiful story and was the vehicle for Scott becoming an absolute cad. So there was a time in Cyclops' publishing history where he wasn't a dick? |
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 26, 2016 9:52:40 GMT -5
I hated how he pushed through the whole "Jean was never the Phoenix" thing, seeing as it was he who insisted she die to pay for her sins of galactic mass murder. It didn't absolve Jean as much as it crapped on a beautiful story and was the vehicle for Scott becoming an absolute cad. So there was a time in Cyclops' publishing history where he wasn't a dick? Ok you got me there. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 26, 2016 10:03:24 GMT -5
So there was a time in Cyclops' publishing history where he wasn't a dick? Ok you got me there. That was an honest question. I have never read anything older than the Brood's first appearance in Uncanny X-Men (around #160). And all I know of the Phoenix saga is from the 90's X-Men cartoon. And in that (and even kidded in the first Singer X-Men movie) Cyclops has always come off as a dick to me. Maybe not totally mean, but always with a stick up his ____. And I hear in more modern comics they've kind of ran with that, like Power Girl's bosom. |
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