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Post by Ozymandias on Sept 26, 2016 10:11:41 GMT -5
Cyclops has always come off as a dick to me. Maybe not totally mean, but always with a stick up his ____. The explanation always given for this, that he had to be that way because of how his power couldn't be controlled, may not be entirely satisfactory, but at least they gave one.
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 26, 2016 10:18:14 GMT -5
That was an honest question. I have never read anything older than the Brood's first appearance in Uncanny X-Men (around #160). And all I know of the Phoenix saga is from the 90's X-Men cartoon. And in that (and even kidded in the first Singer X-Men movie) Cyclops has always come off as a dick to me. Maybe not totally mean, but always with a stick up his ____. And I hear in more modern comics they've kind of ran with that, like Power Girl's bosom. No, I hear you and you're right. He's always been an uptight guy, and I've never been a huge fan. For me, his up and leaving of his wife and baby with almost no (if I'm wrong please correct me) explanation to play super hero again with his not dead anymore ex was so beyond him being an emo dick.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 26, 2016 10:29:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Didn't mean to derail the thread. I just wondered if that was something intentionally done by writers, or just an aspect of Scott's character.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 26, 2016 12:34:57 GMT -5
The discussion over Shooter in charge needs to be reminded of the differences which exist in the real work place. Creativity/artistic leanings versus business/financial. There are few jobs where both are so intertwined yet causing such intense friction. In the other artistic worlds whether music or novels or such the companies regularly sign/release/drop/and resign based on "sales" or that artist is forced to try and promote or sale for themselves many times.Needless to say artistic people are not functioning within the real work place as many of us do. In the "good old days" it was financial that ran everything for the most part: so if you wanted to get paid you had to perform to the work "standards" of the time. That meant monthly deadlines, fulfilling a contracted obligation in the style and form the company asked/required. If you didn't fit that puzzle piece then you were out of work and looking any and everywhere for a job.
Shooter was given a position from higher up the chain and likely his job was to do what they instructed and that was his function. Almost military in style: follow the orders from on top without questioning or altering. you don't have a say in any part, just to do what you are instructed. And should you not fulfill those demand then you are not meeting the job requirements and you will be let go. That is the way hierarchy works here in the hospital i work at. While we are here to take care of the patient, there are many responsibilities and tasks and commitments for each employee that must be fulfilled daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and so on to provide good patient care and if you are not doing these duties then you are written up and if it continues then terminated. Not always a nice and comfortable atmosphere to work within but necessary at times to keep things functioning on a large scale.
I won't address any specifics of artists/writers versus Shooter leadership other than to say that mostly in the real world you work within the job as it demands and/or if you cannot then you have the choice to leave. Many of us remain in demeaning jobs at times because the option of no pay isn't a very good choice to follow. The artistic viewpoint can sometimes be the art is more important than the job. Which if you are a company creating a monthly product which is based on sales then it speaks to itself if the monthly comic which you write or draw isn't selling then it directly is a result of your efforts. You cannot fault a company for wanting its product to sell to its best and fullest capabilities. That is what Shooter was being paid to do: have employees/staff toe the company line as the owners say. Was it right or wrong was never part of their concern. To show respect for artists and writers that built the company should be a consideration, but how long do you continue utilizing/protecting an under-performing employee who by show of sales is benefiting from past glory? It doesn't occur too often in the real work place that i am aware of.
Hoping i expressed this properly without setting off a firestorm of controversy. It is a deceptively easy argument which carries a lot of anger, frustration and passion for many. In comic books like work: i usually follow this practice: don't discuss pay, politics, religion or personal viewpoints unless you are willing to agree not to agree. There is no winning in any of these. Each person believes they are right and if you cannot accept another's viewpoint or thoughts then don't open for discussion.
Which is my way of saying that i appreciate this board more than other i have ever seen. We are all functional adults expressing ourselves and our viewpoints through intelligent discussion while learning new things from said conversations!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 26, 2016 13:26:28 GMT -5
Many forget that just because a job is artistic that it is any different than working at Walmart. Companies are out to make money, and if your workload, whatever it may be is lacking whether you've been with the company 2 years or 20 years, costs the company money. And they therefore have to cut their losses.
To be honest, the business side of comics, as well as artist and writers that do it for a living, always impress me, as they are able to look at it from a financial or business stand point and do the job. Not that people that are passionate about what they do are someone how lesser, just that, as consumers of the product, it is hard to imagine (and I am just throwing out a name here) that Bernie Wrightson did all he did for a paycheck. And that there was no love or passion, just effort to do his job the best so he could get paid the best salary his work demanded.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 26, 2016 17:42:33 GMT -5
Anyone involved in that mess shares a part of the blame, but in Shooter's defense it wasn't his idea. He just okayed a concept that allowed Jean to "come back" without giving her a pardon for killing three billion Asparagus people. But I'm with you... as EiC, as the man holding the line where the buck stops, he should have said "no". It was such a lousy idea. Agreed. Wasn't Bob Layton the actual brain child behind it? Regardless, I would've liked Dazzler in there, or why not Maddy in an "Oracle" type role? I constantly harp on this because I came to really like Maddy, and hated what Scott did to her and how the whole thing led to her death by redundancy. I loved Maddie, I loved how she clearly was not Jean, I loved how Scott had grown beyong his loss and come to love someone else... someone he clearly stated he was glad was not Jean reincarnated. I couldn't hate him for what he did... It was so grossly out of character that I just waited for the powers that be to come to their senses and put an end to this nonsense. It never came! Luckily Scott managed to become interesting again in recent years, just before they decided to kill him again.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 26, 2016 17:49:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Didn't mean to derail the thread. I just wondered if that was something intentionally done by writers, or just an aspect of Scott's character. Scott was never a jerk. He was a boy scout, an uptight fellow with a deep sense of respnisibility (on par with that of Pete Parker). Unlike Peter, though, Scott was not a likeable goof; he was just the guy in starched underoos who always tried to do what was right. Also, unlike many heroes in leadership position, he didn't have a natural advantage; he wasn't handsome and inspiring like Cap, he wasn't smart like Reed Richards or Tony Stark, he was just the guy who must do his homework and work out. I always liked Cyclops because he was the real everyman among the Marvel heroes, and I was glad he finally got a chance to shine. Until X-Factor, naturally. Ugh.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 26, 2016 20:48:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Didn't mean to derail the thread. I just wondered if that was something intentionally done by writers, or just an aspect of Scott's character. Scott was never a jerk. He was a boy scout, an uptight fellow with a deep sense of respnisibility (on par with that of Pete Parker). Unlike Peter, though, Scott was not a likeable goof; he was just the guy in starched underoos who always tried to do what was right. Also, unlike many heroes in leadership position, he didn't have a natural advantage; he wasn't handsome and inspiring like Cap, he wasn't smart like Reed Richards or Tony Stark, he was just the guy who must do his homework and work out. I always liked Cyclops because he was the real everyman among the Marvel heroes, and I was glad he finally got a chance to shine. Until X-Factor, naturally. Ugh. Then it might entirely be my perception from media outside the comics as far as reaching that conclusion. Which I am perfectly willing to admit my pre1990's X-Men knowledge is very limited. It might also have to do with the Logan, Jean, Scott General Hospital love triangle being the one commonality that ruins anything about those three characters interacting. It even survived the alternate reality of Age of Apocalypse which was its one major annoyance.
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RikerDonegal
Full Member
Most of the comics I'm reading at the moment are Marvels from 1982.
Posts: 128
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Post by RikerDonegal on Sept 27, 2016 3:09:43 GMT -5
I'm pro-Shooter, but I'm aware of the fact that he's not perfect. And also that a job like EiC is very difficult and not everybody can do it well.
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Post by Ozymandias on Sept 27, 2016 3:18:26 GMT -5
I'm pro-Shooter, but I'm aware of the fact that he's not perfect. And also that a job like EiC is very difficult and not everybody can do it well. Serves him right, for trusting Conway with... anything.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 27, 2016 5:30:27 GMT -5
I'm pro-Shooter, but I'm aware of the fact that he's not perfect. And also that a job like EiC is very difficult and not everybody can do it well. Serves him right, for trusting Conway with... anything. IIRC, it was musical chairs with the Eic between Thomas and Shooter. Hey man, nobody likes their boss whether it's at Staples or a comic company. They have the final say and you don't.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 27, 2016 6:01:19 GMT -5
Scott was never a jerk. He was a boy scout, an uptight fellow with a deep sense of respnisibility (on par with that of Pete Parker). Unlike Peter, though, Scott was not a likeable goof; he was just the guy in starched underoos who always tried to do what was right. Also, unlike many heroes in leadership position, he didn't have a natural advantage; he wasn't handsome and inspiring like Cap, he wasn't smart like Reed Richards or Tony Stark, he was just the guy who must do his homework and work out. I always liked Cyclops because he was the real everyman among the Marvel heroes, and I was glad he finally got a chance to shine. Until X-Factor, naturally. Ugh. Then it might entirely be my perception from media outside the comics as far as reaching that conclusion. Which I am perfectly willing to admit my pre1990's X-Men knowledge is very limited. It might also have to do with the Logan, Jean, Scott General Hospital love triangle being the one commonality that ruins anything about those three characters interacting. It even survived the alternate reality of Age of Apocalypse which was its one major annoyance. Your perception is accurate, adam, because Scott was depicted as a jerk from X-Factor #1 to Whedon's astonishing X-Men... a long period indeed. But his jerkiness was retroactively imposed on a character that was anything but weak and selfish. The love triangle is also something that was retconned into the X-people mythology (back in the reprint title "classic X-Men", after Jean had died the first time). Prior to that, Logan had shown a comic and doomed infatuation with Jean, who had responded with amused contempt. (Logan would even grow out of that infatuation when he fell in love for real with Mariko Yashida). Chris Claremont then decided it would be interesting to retcon Jean into having been sexually attracted to Logan, and several other writers decided to build and build on that. Eyuch. Unfortunately for the character, it is Scott's emotionally starved, dependent and self-doubting persona that became well-known in the late '80s and '90s. It even made it unto the big screen.
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Post by Snikts and Stones on Sept 28, 2016 0:11:53 GMT -5
Bottom line was he didn't mind being the heavy, didn't care if he knew you hated him as long as he knew you LOVED Marvel... I've read his mentor over at DC was a legendary harda** but the trains always ran on time there during his time as well. Christopher Priest, in his outline of his time on the Spiderbooks on his website he speaks of Shooter at length...
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,211
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Post by Confessor on Sept 29, 2016 0:30:04 GMT -5
...I hear in more modern comics they've kind of ran with that, like Power Girl's bosom. That can't be easy. Those things are HUGE!
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Post by Ozymandias on Sept 29, 2016 3:35:24 GMT -5
Careful now, the last CBR reboot started pretty much in such a fashion.
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