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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 13:39:10 GMT -5
I had a dear friend at work that did not get vaccinated for measles -- because his parents did not think it was important. During his 25 years plus at work; he was sick for 3 months straight because he did not had the measles shot when he went to China in 1992 and soon he got home from that trip -- he got sick and laid up for 3 months and got the measles shot when he finally got well.
He lost 35 pounds during his sickness from work and that's the terrible price to pay for not getting the shot. He was mad at his parents for not taking care of him when he was a child.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 29, 2018 16:02:19 GMT -5
Robert Anton Wilson (co-author of the Illuminatus Trilogy) once said an expert is nothing more than an idiot in a room full of morons willing to listen to him and take him at his word. I used to scoff at this, believing that knowledge can provide a foundation for real expertise, but as I have gotten older and seen what is happening in the world around me, I realize he hit the nail on the head. All it takes to be an expert is a group of people foolish enough to be willing to listen to you and take you at your word no matter what kind of bullshit you spout. Facts and evidence are an anathema to expertise, not the foundation for it. -M Thus we have Goop.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 29, 2018 16:03:01 GMT -5
Robert Anton Wilson (co-author of the Illuminatus Trilogy) once said an expert is nothing more than an idiot in a room full of morons willing to listen to him and take him at his word. I used to scoff at this, believing that knowledge can provide a foundation for real expertise, but as I have gotten older and seen what is happening in the world around me, I realize he hit the nail on the head. All it takes to be an expert is a group of people foolish enough to be willing to listen to you and take you at your word no matter what kind of bullshit you spout. Facts and evidence are an anathema to expertise, not the foundation for it. -M My Dad used to define an expert as follows...an ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. Now he was being facetious. But there's a germ of truth in there. There are far too many "talking heads" whose expertise lies not in actual knowledge but in them having a platform to spout their alleged information. Thus Doctors Phil and Oz.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2018 16:09:20 GMT -5
So, there are no Experts in the world ?
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 29, 2018 17:06:04 GMT -5
So, how would you deal with the people that would inundate you with loads of information via statistics, books, this doctor said this/that, the CDC has been lying about this, this company was sued, polio danger is revisionist history, etc.
And then if you don't look into it you're being ignorant/refusing to look at the other side of the coin.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 29, 2018 17:13:43 GMT -5
My wife wanted me to check out a Facebook group to challenge my views about the entire thing. It has over 100,000 members, and seems very...adamant about it's policy of not encouraging different viewpoints. Here is the DM I got from someone that approved me: (...) I am about to approve your request to join the Vaccination Re-education Discussion Forum. I want to commend you for doing what you feel is best for your family and/or community by participating in the vaccine programs. The very fact that you want to join the group indicates a to me that you have an open mind and want to make sure that you have complete information before making important decisions about health and well-being. (...) One of the most hilarious things about such groups is that they keep talking about being open-minded, while they are the opposite of it. They disregard data, only cherry picking whatever can help them make a point when trying to push their unorthodox agenda. Science IS about being open-minded. Scientist do not try to prove their ideas, they try to DISPROVE them. That is the nature of the hypothesis-driven scientific method: observe the evidence, come up with an idea to explain the evidence, then make predictions based on the idea. (The idea MUST allow one to make testable predictions' otherwise it’s not science; it just a Just-So Story). If the predictions pan out, science has a little more confidence in the hypothesis. Then scientists must try to find ways in which the results could have been achieved by a different mechanism, with plenty of competitors doing their darndest to torpedo it. Thanks to this extremely critical system, what eventually gets accepted as a valid hypothesis is usually pretty reliable. Claiming that the Earth is flat, or that continents don’t drift but that the Earth is expanding, or that we all live in a computer simulation, isn’t the proof of an open mind; it is proof that someone does not consider the available data, but prefers to stick to some bizarre story. Er... No. After decades of CURING ACTUAL DISEASES WORLDWIDE, it has become very easy for people to trust vaccines. The same goes for safety belts and condoms. Marketing has nothing to do with it. The same motivation found among flat earthers, 9/11 conspiracists, or deniers of the moon landings. Their ego is stroked by the idea of belonging to a select few intelligent people who rise above the stupid sheeple and the eeeeeeevil conspiracy of the medical-military-industrial complex. Their behaviour is helped by the fact that thanks to vaccination, they have never known smallpox or rabies or tuberculosis or polio. Heck, nowadays most of them have never even had mumps, measles or rubella. They're like people who say war isn’t that bad and we shouldn’t prevent it, because all they know of it is what they’ve seen in movies that always end well. That argument is beyond stupid. Vaccination IS natural immunity. There is no such thing as artificial immunity. Vaccination is exactly the same thing as telling your kid “kid, this is a hornet. Stay away from them because they hurt” instead of letting them get stung “naturally” so they learn the same lesson. I’d love to see not hundreds, but ONE study (a real one) that shows that vaccination is less desirable than letting a kid get ill, especially if we talk about a life-threatening disease! That is actually good advice. I would invite that person to look at how many billions of dollars the “natural” alternative health care industry makes, without having to prove that their stuff actually works (which is the case for pharmaceutical industries). Is Big Pharma greedy? Damn right, it is! It’s an industry! It’s as greedy as any other industry! But Government regulations forces it to abide by cetain criteria of safety and efficacy, which is not the case for the natural industry. There is willful ignorance, and there is outright lying. This is outright lying. Here in Canada we have a program for people who might have been hurt by vaccination (because NO treatment, not even taking a tylenol, is totally without risk). I would expect every civilized country to have a similar program. KEEP AN OPEN MIND, THEY SAID RIGHT ABOVE!!! effin’ hypocrites, if you ask me. Yes, please, let them show any empirical evidence against vaccination! And no, random people saying “I got vaccinated as a child and then I got acne as a teen! Coincidence? I think not!” do not count. Like Slam Bradley, I’m old enough to have suffered from all those childhood illnesses: mumps, measles, chickenpox... In my case, they meant a week at home with fever, a bad rash and feeling crappy. Nothing major. But in a few people per thousand, measles can lead to severe neurological damage or blindness< in a few cases it will kill. It’s like driving drunk. The large, large majority of people who drive drunk will get home safely. Is it a good idea to drive drunk? You’re absolutely correct, Papa Shogun! The place where all sides of a coin are critically examined is called the scientific community, and its discussions are not Facebook posts but peer-reviewed (and severely critically-read) communications. I almost always had a hard time publishing anything because of the peer-review process, and although it meant less success for me, I am very grateful for a system that tries to keep dreck from passing as actual science! Well, being looked upon as ignorant by a bunch of ignoramuses, snake oil peddlers and fanatics is no big deal. Just refer them to the MASSIVE scientific litterature freely available at the NCBI that show that they are flat earthers in another guise. Keep fighting the good fight!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 29, 2018 17:19:01 GMT -5
So, how would you deal with the people that would inundate you with loads of information via statistics, books, this doctor said this/that, the CDC has been lying about this, this company was sued, polio danger is revisionist history, etc. And then if you don't look into it you're being ignorant/refusing to look at the other side of the coin. There's nothing wrong with ignoring things that are batsh$t crazy. I'm a devout Christian, and one of the worst experiences of my life was being stuck in a car, while traveling to Mississippi from Pennsylvania on a mission trip following Hurricane Katrina, with a "Young Earther". If you're not familiar with those folks, they're a bunch of yahoos who have calculated that the earth is barely over 12,000 years old because they track time by what is in the Bible. The two best comments from this man were "Carbon dating is not possible and is a ploy by secular scientists to turn people from God" and "Dinosaurs weren't real because they aren't mentioned in the Bible". As a person of faith, even I look at those kinds of people are being not quite right. Just because someone can make a wild theory or conspiracy sound legitimate doesn't mean you need to pay any attention to them.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 29, 2018 18:09:59 GMT -5
So, there are no Experts in the world ? Nobody actually said that though. Of course there are experts. But you have to actually look at their credentials. Jenny McCarthy...not an expert. Unless there's being an expert in being a bimbo. Gwyneth Paltrow...not an expert. Unless it's in being an actress. If Dr. X says he's an expert and what he's saying disagrees with 99.7% of the people in the field he's either Copernicus (very slim chance) or a NUT (very very very likely).
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2018 18:12:52 GMT -5
I find that usually when a celebrity takes a cause on , they are too close to the situation. If you have a child who is sick , you can believe that a Pharma group is responsible and nothing will change your mind. As for Dr.Oz and Phil- they have more credibility because of their experience in the medical field.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 29, 2018 18:30:13 GMT -5
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2018 18:33:20 GMT -5
If they both sold out, then I stand corrected. That's show biz...
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 29, 2018 18:38:29 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the responses. My wife is going to vaccinate our son, but she wanted to wait a few more months to space things out, which I don't agree with. I think here in Macau it's recommended you get the first batch of shots at 12 to 15 months. In the USA it's right at 12 months I think.
Personally, I'm all for just doing what the doctors, and medical professionals tell me. Well, maybe not in China.
Also, my wife a couple of weeks back wanted to watch that movie Vaxxed together. I haven't yet, and don't plan to. Even if I wanted to hear what the people that swear that vaccinations are more harm than good, that film was directed by that doctor that was discredited. Just think it's a huge conflict of interest to me.
This entire affair has become another daily annoyance that's been added to my personal pile which now has to be dealt with. Sadly, I think my wife has just become way too gullible. Even her Facebook friends have urged her to vaccinate after she made a little status update about "going down the rabbit hole". I just feel for our son, who is in the crossfire because of this crap.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 29, 2018 18:43:37 GMT -5
If they both sold out, then I stand corrected. That's show biz... Anyone that has a television talk show with an audience I'm always weary of. Just seems like such a phony setup. I feel these people wouldn't be on TV if they're the real deal.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2018 18:44:32 GMT -5
If they both sold out, then I stand corrected. That's show biz... Anyone that has a television talk show with an audience I'm always weary of. Just seems like such a phony setup. I feel these people wouldn't be on TV if they're the real deal. For sure, these people will do anything to keep their show going.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 29, 2018 20:52:28 GMT -5
BTW, two public freakout videos I saw over the last few days really made my week. Weird.
So in this video and a 24 year old guy and 46 year get into a road rage incident. The 46 year old guy is the one try to slash away with a boxcutter. After a bystander diffuses the situation, the 46 year old guy goes into the other guys car to take the keys away. Another altercation happens with the younger man trying to get his keys back, only to almost be killed when he is sandwiched between cars. The dude that stole the keys sped away. He was later captured in the week by police. He faces charges of attempted murder, first-degree robbery, assault, first-degree reckless endangerment, leaving the scene of an accident and second-degree menacing. Also heard he's had up to 16 prior run-ins with the law.
I don't know where this video is, but it was kind of funny. It's actually a familiar scene with some people I've seen in a fight. When the get their asses kicked, a lot of people that try to sell themselves as being immersed in the street life/tough still try to talk shit after they got their ass kicked. As if to say face. Maybe it's just a instinctual defense mechanism to save themselves from being embarrassed, while not believing that they actually lost. I also think some women are not used to getting hit back, so maybe they don't know how to handle it.
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