Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,220 
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Post by Confessor on Jul 28, 2015 7:51:23 GMT -5
The roots of Stan's victory in the battle for public recognition occurred many decades ago. Staring in the mid/late 60s, it was Stan who went out to the college campus for seminars, attended all the major comic conventions and made himself available to the mass media for interviews. The artists were practically chained to their desks up against tight deadlines generally producing a page a day (except Kirby). Stan basically wrote just a paragraph or 2 to get them started and he had all free time to promote and become the face of Marvel
By the 1970s when he was no longer writing, he still got top billing as STAN LEE PRESENTS was plastered on every comic for, what?, almost 2 decades.
Is it any wonder that Stan gets the bulk of the credit over the other folks who worked on those stories? It also didn't hurt that he was the owner's nephew
I'm not trying to bash Stan. I loved his stuff, but telling it like it was
Completely agreed. I'm definitely not one of thse zealots who portray Stan as evil incarnate. But still ... it's one thing to incaccurately underrate Kirby's role in creating what we know as the MU. It's quite another to not even recognize his name. Granted, I'm talking about a couple of kids here, but at the same time I suspect they're a lot closer to the rule than to the exception. And maybe that's been the case basically forever; obviously, pretty much the only people I ever talk comics with are you lot, & we're not exactly the typical readers of today. For what it's worth, as a kid reading Marvel comics -- including those drawn by Kirby and Ditko -- in the 1980s, I wouldn't have known who either of those guys were. Or any other artist working for Marvel at the time. Stan Lee's name would've been familiar from the "Stan Lee presents..." tag on the opening page of every Marvel book, but I still didn't know who he was. To be blunt, I really didn't give a monkey's about who drew the comics I was reading back then or who wrote them. The credits were extremely boring to me and I always skipped them. It was only as I became an adult reader that I started to become interested in who the creative talent behind my favourite comics was. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 28, 2015 8:09:33 GMT -5
Completely agreed. I'm definitely not one of thse zealots who portray Stan as evil incarnate. But still ... it's one thing to incaccurately underrate Kirby's role in creating what we know as the MU. It's quite another to not even recognize his name. Granted, I'm talking about a couple of kids here, but at the same time I suspect they're a lot closer to the rule than to the exception. And maybe that's been the case basically forever; obviously, pretty much the only people I ever talk comics with are you lot, & we're not exactly the typical readers of today. For what it's worth, as a kid reading Marvel comics -- including those drawn by Kirby and Ditko -- in the 1980s, I wouldn't have known who either of those guys were. Or any other artist working for Marvel at the time. Stan Lee's name would've been familiar from the "Stan Lee presents..." tag on the opening page of every Marvel book, but I still didn't know who he was. To be blunt, I really didn't give a monkey's about who drew the comics I was reading back then or who wrote them. The credits were extremely boring to me and I always skipped them. It was only as I became an adult reader that I started to become interested in who the creative talent behind my favourite comics was. Hell I was 16-17 when I started reading comics, and I was the same way. The covers are what got me to buy a book. Or recognizing a character from a Marvel or DC cartoon that I had or was watching. I skipped over the credits for a long time. I would say it wasn't until almost 20, 2-3 years into collecting, that I was introduced to Starlin's Warlock before I started paying attention to who did what. And that was mostly just him, more so. As I got older and the internet started expanding I started buying books based on creative teams, as it was easy to research what someone did in the industry. I started paying a bit more attention to who did what so I could get more of what they did. But even now I still buy most of what I do, because of what it is, not who did it. As far as Stan goes, I think he's just got the personality/traits to be a front man. Stan seems to enjoy the celebrity status. And it's gotten bigger and more widespread with all the movies Marvel is doing and his random cameos (if he's still doing that). In my personal taste, I never really was wowed by Stan's writing, outside Silver Surfer. But I am forever grateful for whatever amount of input (and I know that's always up for debate depending on the character) Stan contributed to creating some of the best characters in comics. I can't say if any other creator before the internet would have wanted to or done the same, or if Stan intentionally kept himself in the spotlight, but he does seem to be adept at it. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jul 28, 2015 9:45:39 GMT -5
For what it's worth, as a kid reading Marvel comics -- including those drawn by Kirby and Ditko -- in the 1980s, I wouldn't have known who either of those guys were. Or any other artist working for Marvel at the time. Stan Lee's name would've been familiar from the "Stan Lee presents..." tag on the opening page of every Marvel book, but I still didn't know who he was. To be blunt, I really didn't give a monkey's about who drew the comics I was reading back then or who wrote them. The credits were extremely boring to me and I always skipped them. It was only as I became an adult reader that I started to become interested in who the creative talent behind my favourite comics was. Hell I was 16-17 when I started reading comics, and I was the same way. The covers are what got me to buy a book. Or recognizing a character from a Marvel or DC cartoon that I had or was watching. I skipped over the credits for a long time. I would say it wasn't until almost 20, 2-3 years into collecting, that I was introduced to Starlin's Warlock before I started paying attention to who did what. And that was mostly just him, more so. As I got older and the internet started expanding I started buying books based on creative teams, as it was easy to research what someone did in the industry. I started paying a bit more attention to who did what so I could get more of what they did. But even now I still buy most of what I do, because of what it is, not who did it. As far as Stan goes, I think he's just got the personality/traits to be a front man. Stan seems to enjoy the celebrity status. And it's gotten bigger and more widespread with all the movies Marvel is doing and his random cameos (if he's still doing that). In my personal taste, I never really was wowed by Stan's writing, outside Silver Surfer. But I am forever grateful for whatever amount of input (and I know that's always up for debate depending on the character) Stan contributed to creating some of the best characters in comics. I can't say if any other creator before the internet would have wanted to or done the same, or if Stan intentionally kept himself in the spotlight, but he does seem to be adept at it. Responding to the part I bolded: yes, as of Ant-Man, he's still doing cameos. I won't spoil where he shows up, but it's near the end. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 28, 2015 10:17:47 GMT -5
I wasn't sure. Outside of GotG, I watched recently, as yall know, Avengers or Iron Man 2 is the last Marvel movie I've seen. I was reminded of it, when about two weekends ago, the boys sat and watched X-Men 1, 2, 3 with me and I remember seeing him in each one. Plus his infamous (and Michael Rooker too .. he was Mr Svening before he was Merle you dang kids!!!!! ;-) ) scene in Mallrats. Such a good movie. Too bad the rest of Kevin Smith's output in entertainment wasn't the same caliber.
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Post by impulse on Jul 28, 2015 10:32:14 GMT -5
Too bad the rest of Kevin Smith's output in entertainment wasn't the same caliber. Them's fightin' words! Kidding, though I thoroughly enjoyed Dogma, and while I didn't enjoy it as much at the time, I recently rewatched Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was hilarious. I appreciate simplistic dick and fart jokes more now in my thirties than I did in my early 20s trying to be "serious" I guess. Clerks 2 was surprisingly, good, too, and I didn't realize at the time that Zack and Miri make a Porno was a Smith movie, and that was excellent. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 28, 2015 10:57:55 GMT -5
The U.S. flag is deployed over our campus!!!
An American television filming crew is currently using our campus as the set for a secret agents school. The U.S. flag has been raised and all the "Arrêt" signs are now covered with stickers saying "Stop".
This is pretty cool! I'll really have to find out what show they're making.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 28, 2015 10:59:20 GMT -5
Too bad the rest of Kevin Smith's output in entertainment wasn't the same caliber. Them's fightin' words! Kidding, though I thoroughly enjoyed Dogma, and while I didn't enjoy it as much at the time, I recently rewatched Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was hilarious. I appreciate simplistic dick and fart jokes more now in my thirties than I did in my early 20s trying to be "serious" I guess. Clerks 2 was surprisingly, good, too, and I didn't realize at the time that Zack and Miri make a Porno was a Smith movie, and that was excellent. :-) I might have bit hastily mean to Smith. It's not so much that the output of his movies are bad, as much as they just aren't the characters of Mallrats. For me Jay & Silent Bob aren't the most entertaining of the characters, so Strikes Back is less entertaining in it's entirety than Mallrats. But Strikes Back has plenty of great moments with Tracy Morgan (give me the map Scott!), "The Dawson" and "you stuck your *ick in a pie", Banky Edwards, Holden McNeil (fic-tion-al char-ac-ters ... am I getting through at all?) and Chris Rock. It had plenty of moments that were laugh out loud, but the central cast, to me was the weakest. Whereas somehow Mallrats had just the right mixture of every character to come out an almost flawless comedy. I own both and watch them from time to time. But I always find myself skipping scenes and watching what I want in Strikes Back but watching Mallrats from start to finish. I have watched Dogma, quite a while back and do not remember feeling anything either way, bad or good. It could be worth watching again, as I don't own it. I did like Clerks, and had forgotten about that in making my stab at Smith. :-) I have not watched the sequel but I'll be willing to give it a try from Netflix. I trust your suggestions in video games and comics, why not movies, right? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 28, 2015 11:04:54 GMT -5
Them's fightin' words! Kidding, though I thoroughly enjoyed Dogma, and while I didn't enjoy it as much at the time, I recently rewatched Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was hilarious. I appreciate simplistic dick and fart jokes more now in my thirties than I did in my early 20s trying to be "serious" I guess. Clerks 2 was surprisingly, good, too, and I didn't realize at the time that Zack and Miri make a Porno was a Smith movie, and that was excellent. I did like Clerks, and had forgotten about that in making my stab at Smith. :-) I have not watched the sequel but I'll be willing to give it a try from Netflix. I trust your suggestions in video games and comics, why not movies, right? How about Chasing Amy? I view it as comparable to Clerks, even with the Mallrats characters. |
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Post by impulse on Jul 28, 2015 11:23:18 GMT -5
I did like Clerks, and had forgotten about that in making my stab at Smith. :-) I have not watched the sequel but I'll be willing to give it a try from Netflix. I trust your suggestions in video games and comics, why not movies, right? Uh, oh, that's a lot of pressure on a guy! Let me add that while I thoroughly enjoyed Clerks, it's been some time since I've watched it, and most of those films from that period are DEFINITELY products of their times and contexts, so I'm not sure how they watch outside of the 90s as a teenager. If nothing else, I know Clerks is very quotable. How about Chasing Amy? I view it as comparable to Clerks, even with the Mallrats characters. For some reason I didn't enjoy Chasing Amy as much as I should have. In fairness, it's been close to 15 years since I've watched it, and I believe Smith considers it the high point of his output. I seem to recall thinking it should have stopped sooner than it did and finding the twist to be just too much to enjoy. I should give it another chance. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 28, 2015 11:29:46 GMT -5
Too bad the rest of Kevin Smith's output in entertainment wasn't the same caliber. Them's fightin' words! Kidding, though I thoroughly enjoyed Dogma, and while I didn't enjoy it as much at the time, I recently rewatched Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was hilarious. I appreciate simplistic dick and fart jokes more now in my thirties than I did in my early 20s trying to be "serious" I guess. Clerks 2 was surprisingly, good, too, and I didn't realize at the time that Zack and Miri make a Porno was a Smith movie, and that was excellent. I think Kevin Smith has made only 1.5 good movies: Clerks and about 50% of Clerks 2.  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 28, 2015 14:31:52 GMT -5
Them's fightin' words! Kidding, though I thoroughly enjoyed Dogma, and while I didn't enjoy it as much at the time, I recently rewatched Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was hilarious. I appreciate simplistic dick and fart jokes more now in my thirties than I did in my early 20s trying to be "serious" I guess. Clerks 2 was surprisingly, good, too, and I didn't realize at the time that Zack and Miri make a Porno was a Smith movie, and that was excellent. I think Kevin Smith has made only 1.5 good movies: Clerks and about 50% of Clerks 2. Chasing Amy and Dogma were entertaining. |
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 29, 2015 8:35:13 GMT -5
I liked both Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and Dogma
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 29, 2015 9:28:02 GMT -5
Sorry for your loss, Cei-U. I missed this when it was first posted. (I've pretty much been focusing on my review thread. Need to get back to browsing the forum more.)
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 29, 2015 9:32:00 GMT -5
Kevin Smith is a very odd character for me. On one hand, I want to like him, and I genuinely enjoyed Clerks, Chasing Amy and Dogma, but on the other hand he comes off as the poster-boy for everything that's wrong with fanboy culture. Some of the crap I've heard him say is too low-brow and witless for most degenerate frat-boy's, much less a "professional" filmmaker and writer.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jul 29, 2015 9:38:38 GMT -5
...too low-brow and witless for most degenerate frat-boy's... Please forgive me for editing your post, but this captures quite well my feelings towards what I've seen from Mr. Smith. |
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