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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 12, 2014 10:15:21 GMT -5
I disagree.. Game of Thrones in particular got a HUGE boost from the show. Not a day goes by on the train when I don't see someone reading one of the books from the series... it when from a critically acclaimed minor hit in a niche market to a national phenomenon. Walking dead has sold TONS of trades since the show hit. The first volume is still often towards the top of the list, and the new one always tops it.
Why can't Marvel do that with Iron Man, Guardians, etc? Seems like if they made an effort to get an accessible trade out there, and slapped RDJ on the cover, it'd sell.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 12, 2014 10:20:33 GMT -5
As far as trades and digitial 'counting'... I think Image certainly counts them... I think that's half the reason that pause for the trade, so they can see if sales warrant the series continuing
Given how many low tier titles from Marvel and DC get cancelled without a trade, or before it (Iron Patriot, the Movement, Morbius, Avengers Undercover, etc.) That makes me think they don't consider it. Perhaps DC does for Vertigo titles (which always sell more trades than Superhero fair).
It does often mystify me why DC and Marvel don't put out more older stuff.. the cost to prep something that already exists for printing can't be that high... seems like almost free money to me.
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Post by fanboystranger on Aug 12, 2014 10:33:25 GMT -5
It does often mystify me why DC and Marvel don't put out more older stuff.. the cost to prep something that already exists for printing can't be that high... seems like almost free money to me. Both put out a lot of older material that seems to go under the radar. For example, I've bought Matt Wagner's Demon mini, a bunch of John Ostrander books (Deadshot, Martian Manhunter, The Spectre with further volumes of the latter two out by the end of the year), Cinder and Ashe, Showcase Presents Jonah Hex, vol. 2, the Vertigo Jonah Hex minis in one volume, two new volumes of the Berger Animal Man series (completing Tom Veitch's run and starting Jamie Delano's), and the first two volumes of Grell's Green Arrow from DC over the past few months. I never thought I'd have a complete run of Roger Stern's Avengers run, the bulk of Englehart's WCA, or a collected Serpent Crown Affair from Marvel, but all are currently on my shelf.
At least part of the problem for DC is the higher royalty rates for reprints that were instituted in the late '70s when Jeanette Kahn reformed the practice to make it more in line with magazine publishing. This has held back a lot of reprints. Unless the creators agree to a revised royalty rate, the book may be cost prohibitive for what's expected to be a marginal seller.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 12, 2014 10:47:30 GMT -5
You might have something there... they do seem to focus on particular creators... maybe it has to do with royalties. Marvel (between the Essentials, Masterworks, and the new Epic collections) does decently.. there's a few gaps (notably the late Golden Age and the early Bronze age), but they're alot better then DC, IMO.
DC's archive seem alot less complete, and they ship most of the 50s... then there's very little post-crisis. The Ostrander stuff is nice (I got the Spectre one, in fact) but why put them out a year apart? When not monthly for 4 months, then move on to another series. If they did that, I'd surely get them all... having to wait until next February or whatever, I'm just as likely to forget about it, or get the singles from back issue bins instead.
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Post by fanboystranger on Aug 12, 2014 12:28:03 GMT -5
You might have something there... they do seem to focus on particular creators... maybe it has to do with royalties. Marvel (between the Essentials, Masterworks, and the new Epic collections) does decently.. there's a few gaps (notably the late Golden Age and the early Bronze age), but they're alot better then DC, IMO. DC's archive seem alot less complete, and they ship most of the 50s... then there's very little post-crisis. The Ostrander stuff is nice (I got the Spectre one, in fact) but why put them out a year apart? When not monthly for 4 months, then move on to another series. If they did that, I'd surely get them all... having to wait until next February or whatever, I'm just as likely to forget about it, or get the singles from back issue bins instead. The answer is to appease retailers. The chances of getting a particular collection is far higher if you have retailers requesting it. DC's policy is that they don't want to have retailers stuck with unsold stock. That's why they have the traditional 3+ month wait between the final issue of an arc and its collection, and will generally release older material either quarterly (as in the case of Hellblazer once the series ended; it was alternating current tpb, classic tpb quarterly for the past three years) or twice a year (in the case of Animal Man, the Ostrander material, the Grell GA, etc. (Again, it's still a quarterly release schedule for GA in one new, one classic Grell every three months; same with Animal Man until the final reprint of the Lemire series.) By giving a wide window between releases, you give the retailer the opportunity to adjust orders according to the demand for the previous collection. More than quarterly, I think you're oversaturating an already crowded market, especially when you factor in what Image and Dark Horse do with their tpbs. (The Mignola-verse tends to follow a similar pattern over BPRD, BPRD spin-offs/"year" (1948, etc), Abe Sapien, and Lobster Johnson generally releasing new collections twice a year, plus HB in Hell on Mignola's schedule and Baltimore.)
Now, some retailers love this, and some don't. I know my LCS prefers this method to Marvel releasing the collection a week or two after the final issue of the arc since they aren't stuck with tons of backstock issues that will probably end up in the quarter bins.
Marvel, on the other hand, tends to release tpbs of current material as soon as the arc is over, has an irregular schedule for classic material (often flooding the market with specific titles when movies come out), and with a few exceptions, lets the material go out of out print after a year-end fire sale to clear inventory. That's why you see a lot of cheap Marvel trades in November and December each year-- Marvel sells them off to retailers at a severe discount just to get them out of their warehouses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 13:03:20 GMT -5
I disagree.. Game of Thrones in particular got a HUGE boost from the show. Not a day goes by on the train when I don't see someone reading one of the books from the series... it when from a critically acclaimed minor hit in a niche market to a national phenomenon. Walking dead has sold TONS of trades since the show hit. The first volume is still often towards the top of the list, and the new one always tops it. Why can't Marvel do that with Iron Man, Guardians, etc? Seems like if they made an effort to get an accessible trade out there, and slapped RDJ on the cover, it'd sell. I think it would require a bit more than that. I think there would have to be a lot less fanservice for them to get mass appeal. And a more linear and insulated plotline. No crossovers. The people would have to be able to have a starting point and be able to know everything that's going on. They aren't going to want to wiki anything. I think the Ultimate imprint was their chance to make a clean start for the new crowd, but they Marvelized that line as well, and it ended up being no different from their regular imprint. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 12, 2014 13:24:19 GMT -5
That's true (about crossovers and such), but that wouldn't be hard, either.. just for Iron Man, they did the 'Bad Blood' mini, the 'Legacy of the Mandarin', 'the Inevitable', and 'Hypervelocity'. All minis with a complete story, and while set in the Marvel universe, not really part of everything else. They also did a 'Iron Man Vs Whiplash' mini that was a pretty direct tie-in, but just didn't get marketed much.
Or they could take the actual Masterworks and/or Omnibus, and slap a Movie-inspired cover on it, with some sort of 'read the history from the very beginning' tagline. Add cheap paper and a low price point, and I don't see how it wouldn't be a winner... not for comic book stores, mind you, I'm talking B & N, Target, walmart, COstco, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 13:59:39 GMT -5
The same reason DKR is so successful but the Batman Chronicles aren't nearly as much. I believe the stories have to be rewritten for a different audience. I don't think the serialized stuff appeals to the masses as much as an OGN. Especially an OGN by top notch talent.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 14:28:35 GMT -5
I disagree.. Game of Thrones in particular got a HUGE boost from the show. Not a day goes by on the train when I don't see someone reading one of the books from the series... it when from a critically acclaimed minor hit in a niche market to a national phenomenon. Walking dead has sold TONS of trades since the show hit. The first volume is still often towards the top of the list, and the new one always tops it. Why can't Marvel do that with Iron Man, Guardians, etc? Seems like if they made an effort to get an accessible trade out there, and slapped RDJ on the cover, it'd sell. Alright let's look at it form another angle and assume the books you guys are saying are getting a boost are, here's the next question.... If I watch Walking Dead and then ask 100 people familiar with the Walking Dead comics where to start, how many answers will I get? If I watch A Game of Thrones and then ask 100 people familiar with the Martin books where to start, how many answers will I get? If I watch the Hunger Games of Harry Potter movies and ask 100 people familiar with the books where to start, how many different answers will I get? If I watch the Avengers movie and then ask 100 people familiar with the Avengers comic where to start reading how many answers will I get? It's not going to be 1 like the previous three examples. And how many of those recommendations will provide a reading experience comparable with the movie I saw? If I start with Lee/Kirby is it going to feel like the movie? If I start with Busiek will it have the same dynamic between characters I saw in the movie? If I start with Bendis will it have the same cast? If I start with the current series will I recognize any of the characters or plot points? Same with Batman. Iron Man. etc. etc. etc. The movie experience for these does not translate to the reading experience of the comics. It even happens to some properties in the same medium. A lot of fans of the new Doctor Who do not like classic Who. It has a different feel, a different tone, and a different sensibility that doesn't translate to fans of the new show. The same happens with fans of the movie who might be inclined to experiment with the comic experience. It is not the same as the movie experience. It doesn't have the same feel, in fact it feels like something completely different. Most will not even be willing to experiment, and many who do wil find something so different it doesn't appeal to them the way the movie did. The movies have managed to make the super-hero story compact, streamlined and accessible, with a beginning, middle and END. Another story may follow that features the same characters, but it too will have a beginning, middle, and END. That is not the same experience one gets when venturing into the four color pages of comic books. Comics and movies are different storytelling mediums and require different tool sets and sensibilities to make and to experience. This is not a bad thing. Comics are a unique medium, one that can do things no other medium can, but the movie going experience does not make one a comic reader just because the characters and plots are familiar. Movies and television are a passive experience. You sit and the story comes to you. It's pace and flow are out of your control. Comics are an active experience. You have to figure out the flow of the story and where the eye goes next. Do you read front to back (western) or back to front (Japanese)? Sometimes you open up 2 pages/spread of comic and you are supposed to read one entirely and then the other. Other times the story flows left to right over both pages before you move down? Never mind if the artist/writer tries some funky panel layout that does neither. How does the inexperienced reader know what to do? How do they know when to slow down and take things in on the page and when to speed things up? There's no music cues from the soundtrack to tell them when suspense is being built and a reveal is coming, or a lull in the music to indicate the dialogue is the important thing in this scene like there is in movies and television. Is it an accessible reading experience? Do they have the tool set to enjoy the experience enough to come back? Is it worth the time, money, and EFFORT they have to invest to experience the story that way? Maybe guided view going panel by panel on Comixology could help with that, but what if it's an older comic not designed with panel to panel but page to page story telling in mind? What about the movie going experience prepares a consumer for what they will find if they pick up a comic book or trade and try to read it? What in the comic makes it an enjoyable experience for them if they are a movie or television fan and will make them want to come back for more? Most people know how to read prose (though results of reading comprehension assessments may make us doubt how well they can). Reading comics is a different experience, especially with modern comics where narration is at a minimum and the visual storytelling can vary in quality and differs form the visual storytelling methods of movies and TV which people are more familiar with. It's not just slap a photo cover on it and people will buy it and love it. There is a much bigger divide there that comics aren't addressing and won't translate into an enjoyable experience for the masses until it does. There are and will be people who experience comics and love the experience. But it is mostly a learned experience not an intuitive one. It's easier to experience these stories and characters in other mediums now, and that is not a surefire sign people will come to comics, it could also be a sign people who like the characters but not the medium could abandon it for the easier storytelling experience. There are fans of the medium. There are fans of the characters. Sometimes fans of the character only put up with the medium because it was the only way to get stories of their favorite characters... It's a challenge to get people to buy the books (niche market, only sold in destination shops, etc, etc.), it's an even bigger challenge to provide an entertainment experience that has ease of use, accessibility, and value for the cost. Comics are not that good on any of those three things, and until they are, you won't see success of the movies translate into much of a surge in sales of comics or trades. There might be some initial sampling, but if that sampling doesn't build a returning customer base, it's a hollow success. All those trades and comics on the shelves of Half Price Books, used bookstores, thrift stores, etc. have to come from somewhere, and a good chunk have come from non-comic readers who sampled stuff after seeing movies or television shows and decided it wasn't for them. It's not a coincidence it it easier to find Vol 1, 2, 3 rather than higher volumes of series on the shelves in those places. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 16:20:18 GMT -5
That is an excellent point, and better illustrates what I've been trying to say all along. But the fact that it works with Walking Dead and DKR means it is possible. It's not "comics" that isn't good at that, it's Marvel and DC comics. Maybe Marvel and DC could create a new line of OGN's featuring the popular movie characters, retelling origins and classic stories in a more insulated fashion. Endcaps at bookstores, write ups in the book review section of the papers, front page promos on Amazon and B&N online. Coupons in every DVD and Blu Ray sold. I think the urge to make them all cross over with each other and reboot everything ten volumes in would be too great for the current suits at either company though.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 12, 2014 17:29:18 GMT -5
DC isn't actually too bad at this. They sold vast numbers of Dark Knight Returns, Year One, and the Joker OGN when Batman II (Or was it Batman VII?) was in theaters. And Watchmen generated huge, huge, huge sales.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 17:48:28 GMT -5
I agree, but I think they should have come up with a few more stand alone OGN's to achieve that sort of mainstream appeal some time in the past 20 years. I see they have given it a little effort, when I got back into comics the Joker HC was one of the first things I bought. But I think a couple things like that a year would probably be ideal, and featuring more than just Batman. Why not a Flash one, a Wonder Woman one? Not all will be classics, but a fraction of them probably will be if they give the right talent a crack at it, then when the movie comes out they have something the crowds may pick up off an endcap at Barnes & Noble.
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Post by fanboystranger on Aug 12, 2014 18:15:03 GMT -5
I agree, but I think they should have come up with a few more stand alone OGN's to achieve that sort of mainstream appeal some time in the past 20 years. I see they have given it a little effort, when I got back into comics the Joker HC was one of the first things I bought. But I think a couple things like that a year would probably be ideal, and featuring more than just Batman. Why not a Flash one, a Wonder Woman one? Not all will be classics, but a fraction of them probably will be if they give the right talent a crack at it, then when the movie comes out they have something the crowds may pick up off an endcap at Barnes & Noble. That is the idea behind DC's Earth One and Marvel's Season One OGNs, none of which have been all that impressive. I know we're getting Jeff Lemire's Teen Titans: Earth One OGN in a few months, and there's that Morrison Wonder Woman project with Yanick Pacquette that may be Wonder Woman: Earth One. |
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Post by hondobrode on Aug 12, 2014 20:47:03 GMT -5
I've read that many non-DC readers jumped on, while very few DC readers were lost. Also, the numbers are skewed because what we get are Diamond numbers. That still doesn't include non-Diamond distribution, or digital, which particularly for DC has been a win with their weeklies and digital first series like Batman '66. But the 2011 numbers don't include that either. We're still comparing apples to apples here. And since digital numbers are very hard to come by (as are all alternative distribution numbers actually), this is still the best gauge we have for growth within the industry. I don't think it's accurate, when digital is growing so rapidly, and we don't have exact numbers there, though we do know that Comixology, the leading platform, is skyrocketing in sales. Some things to also consider : the price of comics has gone up so much, and I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure it's outpaced inflation over the last 20 years to be sure, when the cover price has doubled. By doing that, of course units sold are going to go down, but there's more gross profit per issue. Also, in the past when Marvel and DC weren't consider IP farms, they had to sink or swim purely on publishing profits whereas now they are maintained at much lower thresholds to keep the properties alive and viable. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 21:14:29 GMT -5
Units sold haven't gone down though. Not in the past handful of years since the reboot though.
I agree, the revenue from Comixology could be larger than any of us imagine. Comixology isn't releasing those numbers though. I've read estimates on digital sales as a whole, but issue per issue itemization, company vs company growth comparisons, that kind of thing isn't available. Not yet anyway. Eventually it's going to be exactly the kind of thing shareholders will want to know. Probably retailers too. Also, according to a recent article I read, the publisher share of Comixology sales is 15%. You'd have to know how many sales are full price and how many are discounted to factor in money made.
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