|
|
Post by hondobrode on Aug 14, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5
Where was that, Trebor ? Not sure I've seen it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 14, 2014 13:06:52 GMT -5
Maybe I should have been nicer. There really aren't many guys who are better in terms of pure design skills - That's a really damned impressive drawing and he's even better when he has panels to play with. I'm not talking about BAD artists here - It'll mostly be Perez type guys who are really good in some areas and really limited in others. Try to imagine him drawing noir, and how terrible that would be. After seeing the first few pages of Sachs and Violens and the first few pages of Who Is Donna Troy, I'd love to see Perez try his hand on actual noir. Looking at his Crossgen Chronicles stuff, more straight-up fantasy stuff too. But I think Perez the artist isn't the same as Perez the brand. Perez the brand gets hired to draw big giant group shots, and he draws them better than everyone else in the history of humanity. That old adage Garcia-Lopez said about how everyone in a group shot should be in the middle of doing something, Perez is the one who adheres to it the most. But that's his brand -- it became the thing he was known for and it perpetuated. He can do a bunch of other stuff when he's motivated (he's on the record as his work being really really unsatisfactory and slow when he's not), but that's not why people buy his work, and ultimately, not what people write for him. I was thinking about that last night - Maybe I blame the editors? I'm sure he started out being really happy to do superhero team books, and now he's kind of pigeon-holed so that's the only thing that he ever gets offered. And it's really hard for me to tell how good someone is if I've only seen their work in one genre - which means my "best artists" list is going to be strongly (and unfairly) prejudiced towards folks who mostly worked pre-1970. If I'd only seen Kirby's superhero stuff from the '60s I'd have a lot less respect for him, but since I know he can do westerns, romances, funny animals and memoir I'll cheerfully rate him as one of the best of the best. And just as an aside - This is totally a personal thing, but as I get older I lean more and more towards elegant simplicity, and I find stuff with a gajillion little lines in it tough to read. Does Perez ever do anything that isn't cluttered? I really do like his design sensibilities. |
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Aug 14, 2014 13:08:07 GMT -5
As much as I love the Byrne/Austin era on X-Men, I think I like his pencils with Karl Kesel's inks even more. I am thoroughly convinced that Karl Kesel's inks make everything better. Air is even better when you're reading a Kesel inked comic. (Or Kesel written, for that matter.) |
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 14, 2014 13:15:03 GMT -5
Byrne I don't really like or dislike, I do find him pretty inconsistent, though. Ramos I agree with the other comments... when he gets too carried away with his 'style' it gets bad, but he can be good at times... I liked Crimson (though perhaps I'd like it less now.. it was pretty 90s, if I recall. Byrne strikes me as artist with no huge weaknesses - He's good at pure drawing, he can do both cartoony and illustrative, he's got good storytelling flow and a solid sense of design. I'm just not sure that he's that great at any one thing, ever. Ramos.. man I just don't have much of an opinion about either way - which I admit is strange because it's so distinctive. I really liked him on Impulse, and I did like Crimson. Too bad he didn't put out his teen vampire book a decade later, and then build a house out of money. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 13:25:36 GMT -5
As much as I love the Byrne/Austin era on X-Men, I think I like his pencils with Karl Kesel's inks even more. I am thoroughly convinced that Karl Kesel's inks make everything better. Air is even better when you're reading a Kesel inked comic. (Or Kesel written, for that matter.) Every time I see Kesel's name I mourn the premature loss of Section Zero! One of my favorite comics that bnever got a chance to really take hold. -M |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 13:26:09 GMT -5
Despite comics being a visual medium I still prefer a strong writer > great art. I am more forgiving of a great story with "weak" art than a crappy story with amazing art.
Having said that artists that I am lukewarm about are those who have gotten sloppier with time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 14, 2014 13:34:12 GMT -5
Despite comics being a visual medium I still prefer a strong writer > great art. I am more forgiving of a great story with "weak" art than a crappy story with amazing art. Having said that artists that I am lukewarm about are those who have gotten sloppier with time. I'm completely the opposite - The writer decides what happens to Batman, but the artist defines and determines the tone and physicallity of the fictional world - Essentially doing most of the directing, acting, and all of the cinematography. (Unless the book is written by Alan Moore.) |
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Aug 14, 2014 13:53:45 GMT -5
I am thoroughly convinced that Karl Kesel's inks make everything better. Air is even better when you're reading a Kesel inked comic. (Or Kesel written, for that matter.) Every time I see Kesel's name I mourn the premature loss of Section Zero! One of my favorite comics that bnever got a chance to really take hold. -M Me, too. That was such a good book.
I get annoyed every time that Marvel gives us a Kesel fill-in run on Fantastic Four, then pulls him for a new direction that rarely works. Quit teasing us, and just give us Karl Kesel on FF fulltime!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 15:46:55 GMT -5
I get annoyed every time that Marvel gives us a Kesel fill-in run on Fantastic Four, then pulls him for a new direction that rarely works. Quit teasing us, and just give us Karl Kesel on FF fulltime!
Kesel is one of my favorites. I have been patiently waiting for Marvel to realize he would write an amazing classic run on FF... |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 18:55:04 GMT -5
Despite comics being a visual medium I still prefer a strong writer > great art. I am more forgiving of a great story with "weak" art than a crappy story with amazing art. Having said that artists that I am lukewarm about are those who have gotten sloppier with time. I'm fine with art that doesn't stand out or strike me as particularly good, but if it's art I think is actually bad I have a hard time dealing with it. |
|
|
|
Post by comicscube on Aug 14, 2014 20:34:17 GMT -5
I was thinking about that last night - Maybe I blame the editors? I'm sure he started out being really happy to do superhero team books, and now he's kind of pigeon-holed so that's the only thing that he ever gets offered. And it's really hard for me to tell how good someone is if I've only seen their work in one genre - which means my "best artists" list is going to be strongly (and unfairly) prejudiced towards folks who mostly worked pre-1970. If I'd only seen Kirby's superhero stuff from the '60s I'd have a lot less respect for him, but since I know he can do westerns, romances, funny animals and memoir I'll cheerfully rate him as one of the best of the best. And just as an aside - This is totally a personal thing, but as I get older I lean more and more towards elegant simplicity, and I find stuff with a gajillion little lines in it tough to read. Does Perez ever do anything that isn't cluttered? I really do like his design sensibilities. Perez started out as a guy with a lot to prove (Neal Adams said he would never make it as a Marvel artist, but he could maybe get to DC), and he wasn't very well off, so he didn't have formal training, so when he would sneak in Eisneresque stuff, again to prove his chops, he didn't realize they were Eisner effects, or whatever. A lot of this is his own fault. Like I said, he's on the record as not being able to do work properly if he's not feeling motivated. When he was working on Ultraverse stuff for four times the page rate, he was working four times as slow (so it was a wash), just because he couldn't get over drawing Prime and Prototype instead of Superman and Iron Man. I think he's gotten significantly more cartoony in the last 10 years, but he's still more detailed than most. I think a lot of it is Scott Kolins, his usual inker. I've gotten more appreciative of the minimal lines thing too, myself, but I'm still in the mood for detail work a lot of the time. |
|
|
|
Post by comicscube on Aug 14, 2014 20:36:56 GMT -5
Despite comics being a visual medium I still prefer a strong writer > great art. I am more forgiving of a great story with "weak" art than a crappy story with amazing art. Having said that artists that I am lukewarm about are those who have gotten sloppier with time. I'm completely the opposite - The writer decides what happens to Batman, but the artist defines and determines the tone and physicallity of the fictional world - Essentially doing most of the directing, acting, and all of the cinematography. (Unless the book is written by Alan Moore.) I'm the same way. The artist determines a whole lot of the storytelling. Even when it's written by Alan Moore, the artist has to determine if he's gonna go with Moore's direction or veer off elsewhere (and Moore himself works really closely with his artists on the ideas anyway). In general I will take a standard plot with excellent storytelling over a super-excellent plot with substandard storytelling that wouldn't highlight it anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 14, 2014 20:50:21 GMT -5
Byrne I don't really like or dislike, I do find him pretty inconsistent, though. Ramos I agree with the other comments... when he gets too carried away with his 'style' it gets bad, but he can be good at times... I liked Crimson (though perhaps I'd like it less now.. it was pretty 90s, if I recall. Byrne strikes me as artist with no huge weaknesses - He's good at pure drawing, he can do both cartoony and illustrative, he's got good storytelling flow and a solid sense of design. I'm just not sure that he's that great at any one thing, ever. I think Byrne is truly great at depicting action. I'm not sure I've ever seen an artist do so many clever things with powers and big fight scenes. |
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 14, 2014 21:07:13 GMT -5
As much as I love the Byrne/Austin era on X-Men, I think I like his pencils with Karl Kesel's inks even more. I am thoroughly convinced that Karl Kesel's inks make everything better. Air is even better when you're reading a Kesel inked comic. (Or Kesel written, for that matter.) I agree. He's one of those guys that for the life of me I can't understand why he isn't more of a fan favorite. I think he added the perfect touches to Byrne's art on stuff like Legends and the issues of Superman that he did with Byrne. |
|
|
|
Post by hondobrode on Aug 15, 2014 11:37:54 GMT -5
Kesel is awesome. FF, DD, Challengers of the Fantastic, Superboy...
I too lament the death of Section Zero.
and add my vote to giving him the FF
|
|
