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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 12:04:54 GMT -5
Against my better judgement, I allowed myself to be pulled into a discussion on whether a certain band can be correctly included under the "metal" umbrella. If you think comic book fans are the height of unnecessary hair-splitting pedantry, let me introduce you to metal elitists. Good grief. Talk about missing the point on purpose to argue distinctions no one cares about aside from three people online. Never mind that even technically, I was right. It's so puzzling that Lemmy discouraged the use of "metal" to describe Motorhead. When God himself can be wrong... But call it metal or don't. The important thing is to damage your eardrums with it.
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2020 12:51:30 GMT -5
The meaning of the term does seem to have shifted over the years, to the point where I'm not sure what it's supposed to indictate any more. I imagine that two of what used to be considered the Big 3 of heavy metal when I was growng up in the early 70s - Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple - would no longer be considered heavy metal by fans today, especially if they were hearing them for the first time. Much of Black Sabbath would still qualify, I assume.
I can understand Lemmy's POV - perhaps he didn't want his band associated with some of the other acts that were considered metal at the time, or maybe he just didn't like being pigeonholed under any classification.
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Post by impulse on Jul 28, 2020 14:00:40 GMT -5
It's so puzzling that Lemmy discouraged the use of "metal" to describe Motorhead. When God himself can be wrong... But call it metal or don't. The important thing is to damage your eardrums with it. Yeah, he always insisted they were a rock and roll band. There is definitely a lot of rock and roll in some of their stuff, but I find it very hard to label the totality of what they do as rock and roll. Even if not metal themselves, they were massively influential on what metal would become. While an over-simplification, Metallica basically got their start as the child of Diamond Head and Motorhead. The meaning of the term does seem to have shifted over the years, to the point where I'm not sure what it's supposed to indictate any more. I imagine that two of what used to be considered the Big 3 of heavy metal when I was growng up in the early 70s - Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple - would no longer be considered heavy metal by fans today, especially if they were hearing them for the first time. Much of Black Sabbath would still qualify, I assume. I can understand Lemmy's POV - perhaps he didn't want his band associated with some of the other acts that were considered metal at the time, or maybe he just didn't like being pigeonholed under any classification. Yeah, it has definitely grown and changed a lot since its origins of high-voltage electrified blues. I was using it in a very general umbrella catch-all shorthand term for the many, many (MANY) derivatives, fusions, evolutions and progressions that followed. The many variations and subsets of metal and rock have interbred and crossbred so many times over the years that it is VERY nitpicky trying to draw distinct lines, particularly when the more extreme sub-genres came around after picking up a punk/hardcore influence. Forget it after that. The differences are so nitpicky, and people act like it's this discrete and separate mathematical equation instead of a bunch of dudes coming up in the music scene together and borrowing influences from each other whether they know it or not.
If it's got heavy guitars, aggressive drums and ripping solos and sounds like someone in the band has heard of Sabbath, Maiden or Metallica before, I say welcome to the metal family. Yeah, the hair-splitting genre classifications can be a helpful discovery tool if you want to find bands that fit a very specific sound, but outside of that context, leave the gatekeeping elitism at the door. I feel like some people won't be happy until every album by every band has its own genre definition.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 28, 2020 14:56:44 GMT -5
Nazareth was my main metal love, before AC/DC seemed to take over the known world, no idea what they are categorized as now but they were bloody loud the way I played their 1973 record. Can't believe they weren't tempted to call in some bagpipes on this one. Stack Waddy is another early favorite for when one is in 'that mood'.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 28, 2020 15:25:07 GMT -5
Led Zeppelin are about as close as I can comfortably come to heavy metal and still enjoy it.
As a teenager, lots of my friends were into metal, but it never did anything for me. At that age, I was into 60s pop/rock, indie music and old blues records. Still, I absorbed a lot of 70s and 80s metal from my mates almost by osmosis and, as a result, I can talk metal bands with more authority than the absence of that type of music in my record collection might suggest.
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2020 17:38:30 GMT -5
I would consider Queen's 2nd album to be metal and if I remember, both of their 1st two albums were reviewed that way - as the arrival on the scene of a new rival to Zeppelin, etc. Uriah Heep is another band I used to like back then that were called metal but probably wouldn't be so considered now. And I've always thought Bowie's Man Who Sold the World a very heavy-sounding album, almost metal in spirit, if that makes any sense.
I missed out on the next wave of metal bands - Iron maiden, Judas priest, etc - but from the little I've hearrd I'm pretty sure I would have liked a lot of it, so I'm not really sure how it passed me by at the time. I do plan to go back and listent to more of that stuff one of these days.
Once it gets into the thrash stuff with the growling vocals and more emphasis on speed and rythmn to the detriment of melody, I lose interest. The hair metal bands of the 80s - Motley Crue, etc - also leave me cold. So my tastes in this vein are pretty well-defined.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 28, 2020 19:23:29 GMT -5
I still think Soundgarden might be metal, and when you aren't sure it probably means it's got something more than some formula going for 'em right there! Those hair salon victims just before Gun N' Roses could really be pretty funny. There was a chain in Seattle named 'rock hair' or something like that promising those styles in the pages of the music papers... thank goodness for Nirvana I would say, except then there were boutiques with brand new jeans with holes made in the knees and designer flannel shirts for $80. How can Quiet Riot covering Come On Feel The Noize be 'metal' yet Slade who did it originally aren't, they are 'only' glam? This is the clue that you may be talking to kids with group identity nonsense going on over music fans. Anyway, Steppenwolf, a '60s hippie band, coined the term 'heavy metal' in their Born To Be Wild. I wonder how many true metal heads would claim they or Jimi Hendrix are not metal? If 'it' wouldn't exist without them? If i have to care about being cool that would make me uncool... I'll listen to Tony Orlando or Mama cass if I feel like it! Or how about Pat Boone?
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Post by Confessor on Jul 28, 2020 19:34:15 GMT -5
I think it's interesting how heavy metal essentially evolved out of '60s acid rock, with bands like the Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, and Iron Butterfly among others being obvious antecedents to the genre. I love all of those bands and their ilk, but, as I say, metal itself leaves me cold.
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 28, 2020 19:40:57 GMT -5
I think it's interesting how heavy metal essentially evolved out of '60s acid rock, with bands like the Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, and Iron Butterfly among others being obvious antecedents to the genre. I love all of those bands and their ilk, but, as I say, metal itself leaves me cold. Metal seems more like cocaine/alcohol rock.
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2020 20:52:19 GMT -5
Were there ever any music magazines devoted specifically to heavy metal? I'm sure there must be a few now, in the age of genre compartmentalisation, but when did they first appear and what were the first ones?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 28, 2020 21:04:53 GMT -5
Were there ever any music magazines devoted specifically to heavy metal? I'm sure there must be a few now, in the age of genre compartmentalisation, but when did they first appear and what were the first ones? Hit Parader switched from being a general music magazine to focusing on hard rock/ heavy metal in the early 80s. Circus also had a heavy focus on metal and hair bands in the 80s. I’m sure there have been others.
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Post by berkley on Jul 28, 2020 22:09:25 GMT -5
Were there ever any music magazines devoted specifically to heavy metal? I'm sure there must be a few now, in the age of genre compartmentalisation, but when did they first appear and what were the first ones? Hit Parader switched from being a general music magazine to focusing on hard rock/ heavy metal in the early 80s. Circus also had a heavy focus on metal and hair bands in the 80s. I’m sure there have been others. I read Circus a lot in the early to mid 70s when my older brother used to buy it regularly, but had long fallen out of the habit by the 80s. I'm trying to thnk back but I don't remember reading much music press in the 80s, probably because I wasn't buying any records at the time apart from the odd used LP. The 80s were kind of a dead zone for me as far as pop music goes, it was only when I got a job in the 90s and started buying cds that I began to catch up on some stuff, a process that continues to this day, as my knowledge of the period is still very patchy.
The pop music press is a huge topic in itself that could probably do with its own thread but I suppose it fits in with the purpose of this one as described by Ish in his first post. Circus was fun but a bit light-weight, with glossy paper and lots of nice colour photos. When I did read the occasional issue of, say, Rolling Stone the difference in quality was obvious: longer, more thoughtful articles and interviews, broader range of subjects, more in-depth treatment of them etc. I was also impressed by individual issues of mags like Creem and Crawdaddy when I had one to read.
The British music press was almost completely unknown to me until the UK punk scene took off in the late 70s, and even then it was more from hearing about it than seeing issues on the stands.I regret not having had access to some of that stuff at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 8:42:57 GMT -5
My favorite Peter Green / Fleetwood Mac work is their collaboration with Otis Spann, The Biggest Thing Since Colossus.
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Post by impulse on Jul 29, 2020 9:43:00 GMT -5
Even though a lot of those bands initially called metal might not be still be largely considered metal in the modern sense, a lot of them are still credited for prototyping it and bleeding over the edge from rock into metal now and then. Queen specifically arguably laid down the first thrash song, or at least the prototype. Stone Cold Crazy and IMO parts of Brighton Rock on the Sheer Heart Attack album. Others credited for prototyping metal were Scorpions, Deep Purple as mentioned, Uriah Heep among others. I read a saying I liked that summed it up. "While you could argue whether the first metal song was written before Black Sabbath's debut, you could not argue it came after." Confessor, not to push you into something you don't care about, but you might enjoy digging a little into the thrash bands. Not the run of the mill, but the upper echelon combined that aggression and fast rhythm with complex music as well, specifically toward the late 80s when they took a more progressive swing. Neoclassical interludes, soaring melodies and harmonies, exotic scales. If nothing else, the albums Master of Puppets by Metallica and Rust in Peace by Megadeth are arguably among the best metal albums written and showcase the height of musicality and technicality in that aggressive setting, minus the grows and shouting and methed out riffage. More like Iron Maiden with a sneer instead of an opera singer. Also, isn't interesting how many different takes and understandings on what qualifies as metal there are and have been over the years? It just shows how relative, imprecise and subjective it is, and I once again look down on people trying to mathematically separate all the different permutations into separate and exclusive rigid categories. Who is metal depends on who you ask and when you ask them, and they are no more right than you are.
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Post by Confessor on Jul 29, 2020 10:34:57 GMT -5
Confessor, not to push you into something you don't care about, but you might enjoy digging a little into the thrash bands. Not the run of the mill, but the upper echelon combined that aggression and fast rhythm with complex music as well, specifically toward the late 80s when they took a more progressive swing. Neoclassical interludes, soaring melodies and harmonies, exotic scales. If nothing else, the albums Master of Puppets by Metallica and Rust in Peace by Megadeth are arguably among the best metal albums written and showcase the height of musicality and technicality in that aggressive setting, minus the grows and shouting and methed out riffage. More like Iron Maiden with a sneer instead of an opera singer. Thanks for the suggestion, but, actually, I know Metallica's Master of Puppets album, although I haven't likely heard it in some 30 odd years. That was a big album with a lot of my "metaler" friends back when I was in my teens. I had to look up Megadeth's Rust in Peace and I don't think I have ever heard that one...or, if I did, I don't remeber it. That said, my mates definitely did listen to Megadeth and I know some of their music. The cover of the Peace Sells... but Who's Buying? album definitely looks familiar. When we were all together, sitting around listening to the likes of Metallica or Iron Maiden or Judas Priest, I'd always be trying to slip on bits of Depeche Mode or the Smiths or Bob Dylan. Actually, some of my "metaler" friends did end up quite getting into Depeche Mode, which is nice. And they all loved the Beatles as well, surprisingly.
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