shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Jul 7, 2017 10:48:45 GMT -5
..err, the site doesn't have a hat-tipping emoji, which I guess is fine since I don't usually wear a hat. Carry on. Well I've got my next To-Do project set for me
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Jul 7, 2017 11:02:40 GMT -5
Here you go, impulse Untitled It will only show up when you do a full reply and not a quick reply.
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Post by impulse on Jul 7, 2017 11:24:07 GMT -5
Ha! Thanks.
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 7, 2017 16:04:11 GMT -5
Grade: B+ It succeeded where it needed to and failed where it could afford to. I agree with most of your review until the end. It sounded to me like you were describing a terrible film, only to then see a positive grade. C- at best, I say. Competing with Origins: Wolverine for worst film of the entire franchise. And a huge, huge disappointment after Days of Future Past being so excellent. I had really looked forward to this film.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Jul 7, 2017 16:52:36 GMT -5
Grade: B+ It succeeded where it needed to and failed where it could afford to. I agree with most of your review until the end. It sounded to me like you were describing a terrible film, only to then see a positive grade. C- at best, I say. I think I made a clear case for what it did right and, besides that, I still found it visually appealing and saw potential in the characters. Days of Future Past was a far better film, but it didn't give us an X-Men team. This one did. Putting aside your comparing this film to that one, are you saying Last Stand isn't as bad as XO: Wolverine?? I absolutely agree that the quality dipped. Maybe it's Jane Goldman and Matthew Vaughn not being attached to this one, wheres they were a major part of the writing for First Class and Days of Future Past. But I wonder if your (and, really, most people's) utter contempt for the film stems from that disappointment more than from a fair analysis of the film in its own right. I'd still rather watch Apocalypse than any of the pre-First Class films.
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 7, 2017 22:10:20 GMT -5
I agree with most of your review until the end. It sounded to me like you were describing a terrible film, only to then see a positive grade. C- at best, I say. I think I made a clear case for what it did right and, besides that, I still found it visually appealing and saw potential in the characters. Days of Future Past was a far better film, but it didn't give us an X-Men team. This one did. Putting aside your comparing this film to that one, are you saying Last Stand isn't as bad as XO: Wolverine?? I absolutely agree that the quality dipped. Maybe it's Jane Goldman and Matthew Vaughn not being attached to this one, wheres they were a major part of the writing for First Class and Days of Future Past. But I wonder if your (and, really, most people's) utter contempt for the film stems from that disappointment more than from a fair analysis of the film in its own right. I'd still rather watch Apocalypse than any of the pre-First Class films. Last Stand is my #3 worst X-Men film, but I find it a head taller than this one. It had lots of great story points and character moments, but failed to make a cohesive whole out of them. Superhero movies live or die on their characters and character arcs. And that's where this one died. Storm's story alone is enough to condemn this film. EDIT to add: I missed your last comment. I think X-Men and X-Men 2 are great films, and X-Men 2 is one of the best superhero films ever. X-Men 2 is at least a 4.5 star film. This is at most a 2 star. X-Men 3 is a pretty poor film, but I rewatched both recently enough to be confident that Apocalypse is worse. EDIT again: I checked my film logs. I last watched X2 about a year ago and gave it 5 stars. I think that was too high. I previously watched it about a year before that and gave it 4. 5 stars. That seems about right. I gave X-Men 4.5 stars when I watched it last year about the same time and 4 stars when I previously watched it back in 2014. I go back and forth between the two ratings. It's all about how many points I want to dock it for the Statue of Liberty sequence. I gave 2 stars to both Apocalypse and Last Stand. I watched both together last March specifically to compare them and decide which was worse.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Jul 8, 2017 7:28:15 GMT -5
]Last Stand is my #3 worst X-Men film, but I find it a head taller than this one. It had lots of great story points and character moments, but failed to make a cohesive whole out of them. Superhero movies live or die on their characters and character arcs. And that's where this one died. Storm's story alone is enough to condemn this film. I guess I just don't see it. Storm was underused. So were all of the characters. I didn't see anything done with her that was bad, per se. There just wasn't enough there. But...why? But...why?
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Post by spoon on Jul 8, 2017 8:27:33 GMT -5
But seriously, I really liked the casting for Jean, Scott, and Xavier, and Rogue was fine. James Marsden did absolutely nothing with the role beyond throw shade at Wolverine, Anna Paquin just wasn't Roque (though that's the fault of casting and writing, not of the actor herself), and I truly don't think Famke Janssen can act. Patrick Stewart was good enough, but I think he got the role more for being bald and professor-like than for being Professor Xavier-like. I did love Ian McKellan as Magneto. Yes, Anna Paquin's portrayal has little to do with the comic book character. All the vitality was sapped out of her. A big part of her character is the contrast between outward bravado and inward vulnerability. They just dumped the bravado part. But I agree that it seems like a writing problem. Paquin can't act out what isn't in the script. The irony for me regarding Patrick Stewart a Professor X is that if Stewart had just acting like Jean-Luc Picard it would have been closer to Prof. X he portrayed in the original trilogy. Xavier can be a demanding teacher at times. But Stewart just played him as a sweet, nice guy. Ian McKellan gives the closest performance to his comic book counterpart in the original trilogy.
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Post by spoon on Jul 8, 2017 8:31:16 GMT -5
I think I made a clear case for what it did right and, besides that, I still found it visually appealing and saw potential in the characters. Days of Future Past was a far better film, but it didn't give us an X-Men team. This one did. Putting aside your comparing this film to that one, are you saying Last Stand isn't as bad as XO: Wolverine?? I absolutely agree that the quality dipped. Maybe it's Jane Goldman and Matthew Vaughn not being attached to this one, wheres they were a major part of the writing for First Class and Days of Future Past. But I wonder if your (and, really, most people's) utter contempt for the film stems from that disappointment more than from a fair analysis of the film in its own right. I'd still rather watch Apocalypse than any of the pre-First Class films. Last Stand is my #3 worst X-Men film, but I find it a head taller than this one. It had lots of great story points and character moments, but failed to make a cohesive whole out of them. Superhero movies live or die on their characters and character arcs. And that's where this one died. Storm's story alone is enough to condemn this film. EDIT to add: I missed your last comment. I think X-Men and X-Men 2 are great films, and X-Men 2 is one of the best superhero films ever. X-Men 2 is at least a 4.5 star film. This is at most a 2 star. X-Men 3 is a pretty poor film, but I rewatched both recently enough to be confident that Apocalypse is worse. EDIT again: I checked my film logs. I last watched X2 about a year ago and gave it 5 stars. I think that was too high. I previously watched it about a year before that and gave it 4. 5 stars. That seems about right. I gave X-Men 4.5 stars when I watched it last year about the same time and 4 stars when I previously watched it back in 2014. I go back and forth between the two ratings. It's all about how many points I want to dock it for the Statue of Liberty sequence. I gave 2 stars to both Apocalypse and Last Stand. I watched both together last March specifically to compare them and decide which was worse. Apocalypse was a drop-off from Days of Future Past, but I liked it. Apocalypse was just too overstuffed to give various characters proper focus. It needed less action in exchange for more character moments with the new students. I wish the deleted scenes from the DVD had made their way into the finished film. I can't watched Last Stand to compare it to Apocalypse, because I'm not that much of a masochist.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 8, 2017 9:48:57 GMT -5
Yes, Anna Paquin's portrayal has little to do with the comic book character. Thank goodness! I'd never been able to stand the comic's Rogue, but I loved Paquin's sweet, vulnerable Marie. As I've said elsewhere, I enjoy the X-Men movies (particularly the first two) more than I ever did the comic books. Cei-U! I summon the preferred alternative!
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 8, 2017 15:38:43 GMT -5
I think I said it all in my lead-in. Why did Storm join Apocalypse? Why did she betray him? Why did she join the X-Men? Why did they invite her to join the team and not throw her in prison? Magneto they at least give a decent character arc to. It may be the one redeeming point of the movie. It's not fleshed out enough, doesn't have enough time to breathe, but at least there are plausible motivations presented. And Fassbender is a good enough actor that you can see the characterization in his face even if the script is thin. Psylocke and Angel's character arcs don't make much more sense, but they at least don't do very much, so it leaves us with less questions than Storm's. At least they're not invited to join the X-Men. The rest of the X-Men have no character arcs to mention. But you pointed this all out. There are no character arcs. I'm not even sure anything up on screen qualifies as a story. The closest things there are to stories come from Magneto and Storm. And Magneto's is thinly developed. And Storm's is nonsensical. The rest of the characters are mostly wallpaper.
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 8, 2017 15:52:24 GMT -5
Last Stand had plenty to dislike, but, unlike X-Men Apocalypse, it had moments and ideas that redeem it. - The idea that Secretary of Mutant Affairs is a cabinet position is a good one. The idea that it would be Beast was great. And Kelsey Grammar performed the role superbly.
- Storm's mood affecting the weather is a nice character moment.
- Professor X talking about Storm as the person who might take his place is a great character moment for both of them.
- "Since when did we become a disease?"
- "Is it cowardice to save oneself from persecution?"
- "They can't cure us. You wanna know why? Because there's nothing to cure. Nothing's wrong with you." This is double-edged. Out of context, it's a good line, a good argument against the cure, and with some obvious application to real-life issues like attempts to cure homosexuality. In context, it's spoken by a weather goddess to a girl who can't be touched. And perhaps shows a bit of a flaw in Storm's thinking. It's at the very least an interesting moment.
- The idea of a group of mutant activists meeting is great.
- The idea of mutants getting tattoos as a sign of identity is good. While also nicely rebutted by Magneto: "No needle shall ever touch my skin again."
- Pyro's wrist lighter is cool
- Good use of Leech
- The major deaths so early in the film were pretty cool and unexpected twists. Superhero filmmaking is mostly a pretty conservative genre, and Cyclops' and Professor X's deaths were exceptions to that.
- The idea that Professor X's meddling with Jean's mind created the Phoenix persona. He tried to play god because he feared her power and just made things worse. Good ethical dilemma.
- Ellen Page was awesome as Kitty Pryde
- The date between Iceman and Kitty Pryde was cute.
- "Charles Xavier did more for mutants than you can ever know. My one regret is that he had to die for our dream to live."
- "If you're with us then be with us."
- "They wish to cure us, but I say to you, we are the cure."
- The scene where Angel saves his father is a good character moment.
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 8, 2017 16:17:45 GMT -5
But I wonder if your (and, really, most people's) utter contempt for the film stems from that disappointment more than from a fair analysis of the film in its own right. I guess I didn't really respond to this point. I assure you it's a fair analysis. I viewed it as second time when it came to HBO just to give it one. Note that Last Stand suffers an even worse disappointment factor, coming off the heels of two of the best superhero films ever. By the time Apocalypse had come out, I'd learned to be wary of the erratic X-franchise, jumping as it does from heights to depths and back again. The only thing I haven't given a fair analysis is Origins: Wolverine, having seen it once in the theatre and never again. I'll rewatch it one day to solidify where in the bottom 3 it ranks. For the moment, I'm happy to call it the worst of the franchise. Your other point I didn't really respond to is: I consider that a fairly neutral statement regarding the quality of the films. It seems a mere statement of fact concerning them. Akin to: "Days of Future Past was a far better film, but it wasn't set in the 1980s. This was." Or: "Days of Future Past was a far better film, but it didn't have Psylocke in it. This did."
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Post by coke & comics on Jul 8, 2017 16:26:31 GMT -5
Side note to all this discussion:
What I think could have fixed Storm's ending: Show Xavier trying to decide what to do with her and then recognizing her as one of the people Logan had told him to invite to the X-Men. So he decides to trust in Logan and take her in to try to reform her.
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Post by impulse on Jul 8, 2017 16:33:19 GMT -5
But I wonder if your (and, really, most people's) utter contempt for the film stems from that disappointment more than from a fair analysis of the film in its own right. Speaking for myself only, yes, my opinion is on the film itself and not in relation to Days of Future Past. Sure, following a good movie with a turd makes the disappointment a little worse, but Apocalypse earns its turd rating well enough on its own. I was already prepared for a dumb fun action movie, but it didn't even pull that off. I need a LITTLE story and character to care about what's happening on screen. The original John Wick did this excellently - just enough plot to enjoy watching Keanu Reeves justifiably kill bad guys for two hours. There was just not enough story or motivation in Apocalypse to care, and good effects and action set pieces are a dime a dozen these days and are not enough to carry a movie themselves. I agree with a lot of what you've said, and I'm surprised at how many good things were in The Last Stand. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it since I originally saw it, but maybe I should. It feels like a good concept poorly executed whereas Apocalypse was a lot of spit shine on a whole lotta nothing.
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