|
Post by MDG on Aug 30, 2018 14:29:37 GMT -5
It always amazes me how long it took the comic book industry to "mature."
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Aug 30, 2018 14:31:10 GMT -5
It always amazes me how long it took the comic book industry to "mature." I think DC was more orderly. They dressed like Mad Men too.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 30, 2018 14:38:22 GMT -5
It always amazes me how long it took the comic book industry to "mature." Now...if only comic book "fans" would mature.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 30, 2018 15:48:42 GMT -5
This is the Marvel Bulletin in the comic books dated August 1987. Given Plagirl's actual readership vs its alleged readership, I wouldn't crow too much about being one of their 50 Most Eligible Bachelors, in the less-than mature comic environment. I still recall when Shawn Michaels, of the WWF, found out who bought most of the issue of Playgirl he appeared in were, he soon downplayed the appearance and regretted it Reading about the vouchering and the editorial involvement of the actual books doesn't surprise me much and I tend to think Shooter is probably telling most of the truth here. I have trouble believing he was completely oblivious to it before becoming EIC; but, it's possible. Shooter is correct that there was a big gap of management between Roy's reign and his. At the same time, I think the structure that was in place made the chaos inevitable, as there were too many books for one person to edit. The later system of editors, who reported to the EIC worked far better and did keep the books on deadline. Reading these, Shooter is most definitely the "hero of his own story"
|
|
|
Post by Rob Allen on Aug 30, 2018 16:02:19 GMT -5
Tony Isabella's side of the Ghost Rider story, from his blog:
posted 9/9/2011: "I’m told he [Shooter] also claims he was not the driving force behind the rewriting of my final issue of Ghost Rider, that he was acting under orders from the then-current Marvel editor-in-chief Marv Wolfman. This despite Shooter himself telling me at the time that my story offended him and that was why he was rewriting it. This jibes with the memories of other Marvel staffers at the time, who have also told me the issue was ready to go to the printers when Shooter abruptly pulled it back.
Marv Wolfman was one of three editors who approved of my two-year-long Ghost Rider storyline. He and I have talked on occasion about those years and seem to agree that we all made mistakes in handling our various positions of authority. Unless and until Marv himself tells me otherwise, Shooter gets the blame for undoing a two-year storyline in another writer’s book."
posted 1/24/2016: "Without mentioning yours truly by name, Shooter characterizes me as “a Christian {who was] writing Christian comics instead of super-hero comics.” This is undoubtedly a reference to his tampering with the ending of my two-year run on Ghost Rider, a story designed to remove the supernatural elements from the title and make it more of a super-hero title. Shooter has been trying to either justify that action of his or blame it on someone else for years. He comes up short both ways. Read my earlier blog for the details.
I wrote super-hero comics, as anyone familiar with my Marvel work in the 1970s can attest. Heck, I added super-villains to the Living Mummy strip and made other super-villains Hydra department heads in Daredevil. Some of those moves might not have been the best ideas, but I think they are proof of my super-hero leanings.
As for whether or not I was a Christian...I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith, but hadn’t been a practicing Catholic since before I moved to New York to work for Marvel Comics. I did take a run at a more evangelical Christianity, but I found it as wanting as I did the Roman Catholic faith. In any case, my adding of a Jesus Christ figure to Ghost Rider had nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It had everything to do with believing there should be some sort of supernatural opposition to Satan and all the Satan-like figures in the Marvel Universe and my recognizing people of faith were seldom represented in our comics. Diversity includes a broad spectrum of human beings. Comic books should represent that."
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Aug 31, 2018 10:01:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Sept 20, 2018 11:34:22 GMT -5
Shooter describes his role in writing the origin of ROM, Spaceknight:
A reader rebutted Shooter:
Shooter responded:
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 20, 2018 18:18:45 GMT -5
Lot of left-handed compliments for Mantlo. Mantlo was not one of the giants of comic book writers; but, he put together some solid stories and he seemed to excel at breathing life into these licensed properties. Both ROM and Micronauts were cult hits and the fact that they were reliable sales, as the Direct Market grew in importance, is a key reason why they kept going for so long, when more high profile licenses petered out more quickly. Rom had 75 issues, micronauts 59 and another 20 of the New Voyages. By contrast, Tarzan lasted 29 issues at Marvel and the very high profile Indian Jones had 34 issues, at the height of Marvel being able to sell just about anything to the Direct Market and with people like John byrne involved.
Mantlo wasn't going to create an Elektra Saga or Moonshadows; but, he crafted plenty of good stories and probably could have done as good if not better job than Shooter did, on Secret Wars (which was hardly earthshattering).
I'm never quite sure what to believe in these stories from Shooter. He's been caught out in several factual problems, in past and many reek of ego and personality conflicts, of which he seems to be the center. As they say, if you have problems with that many different people, the problem probably lies with you. Being the boss doesn't make you many friends; but, Archie Goodwin seemed to emerge with reputation intact. Then again, everyone respected Archie because he was a better storyteller than them, yet spent his energies encouraging people and helping them improve a story, not just make changes.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,220
|
Post by Confessor on Sept 21, 2018 0:34:12 GMT -5
I'm never quite sure what to believe in these stories from Shooter. He's been caught out in several factual problems, in past and many reek of ego and personality conflicts, of which he seems to be the center. As they say, if you have problems with that many different people, the problem probably lies with you. Being the boss doesn't make you many friends; but, Archie Goodwin seemed to emerge with reputation intact. Then again, everyone respected Archie because he was a better storyteller than them, yet spent his energies encouraging people and helping them improve a story, not just make changes. This paragraph neatly summarises how I feel about Shooter's comments every time I visit this thread. Though I find his comments fascinating, ultimately I take them with a pinch of salt in terms of their accuracy -- although I'm sure he's absolutely right some of the time. I also think we have to accept at this point that Shooter himself probably isn't a very nice guy and certainly lacks people skills, given all the animosity that was (and still is) directed towards him from many of those who worked under him.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 21, 2018 6:33:52 GMT -5
A agree to a certain extent. I believe most of that he says but if he was rough in his dealings with the creators, he loses whatever good he did for them.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Sept 21, 2018 10:23:39 GMT -5
More from Shooter about ROM, Mantlo, etc:
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Sept 21, 2018 10:41:00 GMT -5
Interesting. I think Shooter is probably being accurate here. I can remember several issues from the earlier 70s by Bill in which the stories didn't make much sense; the Modred issues of Marvel Chillers, an MTIO issue with the Scarecrow, that four-part MTU story with Doctor Doom during the Salem witch trials... But once he got on his long-running titles (I'm surprised Shooter didn't mention Hulk) he did get much better.
|
|
|
Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 21, 2018 16:29:30 GMT -5
Shooter describes his role in writing the origin of ROM, Spaceknight: That would have been Mike Nasser, now Michael Netzer.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Sept 22, 2018 5:13:48 GMT -5
Then, as we were coming down to the wire, I had another artist, name withheld for reasons that will become obvious take a shot. What he did, overnight, was completely wrong. I told him we wanted a Day the Earth Stood Still, eerie, terrifying tableau. What he did, described in his own words, thus, was: “…the townspeople admiring the magnificent robot,” in a picturesque, tranquil setting. He also drew himself, as Jesus Christ, complete with halo, Neal Adams as Moses, complete with halo, and Neal’s family prominently among the “townspeople.” Prominently featured in the background was a church. Those were strange days for him. Later, he got better. He did some work for me at DEFIANT, as I recall. Brilliant artist, good man.
I would love to see that page, if it still exists.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 22, 2018 5:28:33 GMT -5
I would love to see that page, if it still exists. Voilà!
(I can make out Jesus and the church, I'm not really sure which of those figures is supposed to be Neal Adams as Moses, though.)
|
|