Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959 
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Post by Crimebuster on Mar 23, 2017 8:18:42 GMT -5
Like some of you, I have very mixed feelings about Shooter's time as EIC. I think the average quality of the entire line went up, but at the cost of innovation and excitement. Marvel before him was like primordial ooze. Sometimes a miracle of life would happen, and the rest of the time, it's just a disgusting pile of goo. After Shooter took over and smoothed everything out, a lot of the really crappy and self-indulgent works disappeared. But so did the best surprises.
I also think his personal feuds were a major problem for the company in the end. Driving away top talent isn't a long term recipe for success. DC's reinvention was due in (large?) part because of the contributions of creators who had fled Marvel during Shooter's reign as EIC. When the geniuses have left and the mid level workers are what you have left, you're going to mostly get mid level work.
I think he was good for the company for the first handful of years, but overstayed his welcome.
Having said all that about him as an EIC... I'm a big fan of his writing on Avengers. Great stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 8:29:31 GMT -5
Whatever his flaws, I can't forget that it was Jim Shooter who gave me my shot at going pro back in '81. During that period, he was never less than kind, patient, and encouraging, even telling me at one point that I had the potential to be the next John Byrne. That I failed to live up to that potential wasn't his fault. My association with him ended by mid-1982, before his megalomaniacal tendencies began to affect the books, but in that time I came to respect Shooter's grasp of how the medium worked (even if I found his personal approach to storytelling too conservative for my taste). Much as I might criticize him, I will always have warm feelings for Jim. Cei-U! I summon the half-assed apologia! I have to admit that I'm not a fan of him, but reading this post and having him telling you that you've the potential of being the next John Byrne is incredible. I just find your comments of your feelings for Jim is stunned me and I have to admit that in my own judgment that he has problems of his own but yet recognize your own talent as an artist is amazing. Thanks for sharing this ... Kurt. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 23, 2017 9:00:58 GMT -5
Sure if your just a selfish consumer and only care about the finished product you see, then you would love Jim Shooter. Never mind how he drove away creators like Gene Colan and Roy Thomas. Never mind how he sided with Marvel management against Jack Kirby in returning his art. He got issues of Dazzler out in time and that's what counts for ones legacy. What goes around comes around. No one wants to hire him. It came to the point of him having to go back to what he did as a 14 year old and write Legion stories again. And for supreme irony, he got thrown out before he could finish his storyline. There's 2 sides to every story, Ish. Roy Thomas left because he wanted to manipulate Marvel comics into letting him write Conan while working for DC and the upper management didn't know that he had already signed with DC. I agree, there are at least two sides to every story - and I'd like to hear Roy Thomas's side of this one! |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 23, 2017 9:38:14 GMT -5
I think he was good for the company for the first handful of years, but overstayed his welcome. I would pretty much agree with that. So many great runs came out under his watch (though Byrne and maybe others would say that was coincidence.) But then when Secret Wars came things started to decline... Still later years would have me wishing he was back. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 23, 2017 9:51:28 GMT -5
There's 2 sides to every story, Ish. Roy Thomas left because he wanted to manipulate Marvel comics into letting him write Conan while working for DC and the upper management didn't know that he had already signed with DC. I agree, there are at least two sides to every story - and I'd like to hear Roy Thomas's side of this one! I think I read that in Alter Ego or Back Issue. As I recall, while the facts do coincide, the context makes a lot of difference. I don't exactly remember the details, but I seem to remember that at one point Jim thought Roy was fine with what he was proposing while to Roy there were major points still unresolved, particularly the Writer/Editor status. Roy definitely did not hold anyone hostage over his continuing to write Conan. When he got an exclusive contract with DC after quitting Marvel over the stalled negotiations, he had a clause added to it: he could still write Conan at Marvel if he wanted to. For reasons that might have been sound for businessmen but disastrous for the fans, Marvel refused. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 23, 2017 10:03:46 GMT -5
Sure if your just a selfish consumer and only care about the finished product you see, then you would love Jim Shooter. Never mind how he drove away creators like Gene Colan and Roy Thomas. Never mind how he sided with Marvel management against Jack Kirby in returning his art. He got issues of Dazzler out in time and that's what counts for ones legacy. What goes around comes around. No one wants to hire him. It came to the point of him having to go back to what he did as a 14 year old and write Legion stories again. And for supreme irony, he got thrown out before he could finish his storyline. There's 2 sides to every story, Ish. Roy Thomas left because he wanted to manipulate Marvel comics into letting him write Conan while working for DC and the upper management didn't know that he had already signed with DC. I was a boss for a while and it sometimes becomes a situation where you have to babysit people and force them to do what they are getting paid to do. Foe every prima dona that has a negative story about Shooter, there is one that has a good story of support and loyalty. Since when was Gene Colan a prima donna? |
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Post by String on Mar 23, 2017 10:23:17 GMT -5
Sure if your just a selfish consumer and only care about the finished product you see, then you would love Jim Shooter. Never mind how he drove away creators like Gene Colan and Roy Thomas. Never mind how he sided with Marvel management against Jack Kirby in returning his art. He got issues of Dazzler out in time and that's what counts for ones legacy. But...yeah, that is kind of all I care about, because it's the only part of Shooter's legacy that directly touched me. He might well have been an amateur human being and a total a**hole to work with, but there are a lot of a**holes in this world and, anyway, I didn't work with him. Can we not enjoy the fruits of creatives just because of their conduct towards the people they work with might be repugnant? If that's gonna be the case, then I need to stop listening to so much old blues music, because a lot of those guys were misogynistic, womanising criminals and/or murderers. Same goes for someone like Ike Turner: he was a king-sized a**hole and a much, much worse human being than Jim Shooter, but I still think he made great, great records in the 60s and 70s. The people Shooter may or may not have been crappy to at Marvel were still getting paid, however unpleasant working under him might've been -- it's not as if he was some kind of slaver, exploiting children in a sweatshop or something. He was just an a**hole boss (allegedly). There are a lot of them about! Let's get some perspective here. This ^ I can only comment on Shooter's legacy via the work produced by that legacy which I bought. I admit, I really got into comics as a kid during his tenure so yes, I can and probably do view this period of Marvel's history through rose-tinted glasses but for me, the work produced by Marvel during this time (with Bryne, Miller, Simonson, Michlenie, Stern, Claremont among others), was very good and provided the catalyst for my love and enjoyment of these characters that lasts to this very day. The Epic Comic line under Goodwin's direction provided early avenues for creator-owned work and lead to such classics as Alien Legion, Moonshadow, Sirius from Six, a new home for Dreadstar, Groo the Wanderer and dare I even say, Steelgrip Starkey. New Universe was an experiment ahead of it's time. Secret Wars may have been a heavy marketing venture but so were G.I. Joe, Transformers, and Rom, all of which were successes. As for Shooter's alleged treatment of creators, I cannot say. I was not witness to these events and frankly, after 30+ years, memories can swirl and/or fail. However, IMO, an EIC or anyone in a leadership position for that matter, their main responsibility is to make sure their employees are producing the best work they possibly can for which they are being paid. He/she is not there to be friends, he/she is not there to win any popularity contest, rather to ensure the continued success of the business. If Shooter ruffled feathers or worse in this case, then so be it. As a creator being paid for their work, he or she has two choices in such regards, either overlook or adapt to it or find another job, which some did over his tenure. It's a free enterprise system (supposedly), such is a creator's right if they feel they are being treated poorly or unfairly. But I don't see why they should feel that Shooter should have been obligated to be buddy-buddy with them all when in fact, his job was to see that the best work possible was being published under the Marvel brand. For me, Shooter gets an A. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 23, 2017 10:30:00 GMT -5
Sure if your just a selfish consumer and only care about the finished product you see, then you would love Jim Shooter. Never mind how he drove away creators like Gene Colan and Roy Thomas. Never mind how he sided with Marvel management against Jack Kirby in returning his art. He got issues of Dazzler out in time and that's what counts for ones legacy. But...yeah, that is kind of all I care about, because it's the only part of Shooter's legacy that directly touched me. He might well have been an amateur human being and a total a**hole to work with, but there are a lot of a**holes in this world and, anyway, I didn't work with him. Can we not enjoy the fruits of creatives just because of their conduct towards the people they work with might be repugnant? If that's gonna be the case, then I need to stop listening to so much old blues music, because a lot of those guys were misogynistic, womanising criminals and/or murderers. Same goes for someone like Ike Turner: he was a king-sized a**hole and a much, much worse human being than Jim Shooter, but I still think he made great, great records in the 60s and 70s. The people Shooter may or may not have been crappy to at Marvel were still getting paid, however unpleasant working under him might've been -- it's not as if he was some kind of slaver, exploiting children in a sweatshop or something. He was just an a**hole boss (allegedly). There are a lot of them about! Let's get some perspective here. I tend to agree. Aside from anything else, these are people working a comparatively small industry where a lot of creators know each other, and factionalism and clashes of personality do tend to arise. Getting outraged on behalf of someone you don't know when you may only be hearing half the story seems a bit pointless to me. I know a few people in the British comics industry; one of them has been vilified for years by a very vocal faction, but has always seemed to me to be a decent guy who bears no resemblance to the person much of fandom now thinks he is. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 23, 2017 10:41:09 GMT -5
There's 2 sides to every story, Ish. Roy Thomas left because he wanted to manipulate Marvel comics into letting him write Conan while working for DC and the upper management didn't know that he had already signed with DC. I was a boss for a while and it sometimes becomes a situation where you have to babysit people and force them to do what they are getting paid to do. Foe every prima dona that has a negative story about Shooter, there is one that has a good story of support and loyalty.Since when was Gene Colan a prima donna? First you equate people being negative to Shooter as prima donnas and then you think a 50% employee satisfaction rate is something to be proud of. And Shooter's biggest supporter in his first few years as EIC, John Byrne, also left Marvel cursing Jim on the way out.Jim Shooter's blog is a self-serving propaganda piece extolling his own virtues. He couldn't say it better himself. Wait..he did say it about himself |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 23, 2017 10:44:28 GMT -5
I never said that Colan was a prima dona. It's just possible that he was just phoning his work in and needed a change. He did great stuff at DC.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 23, 2017 10:45:58 GMT -5
Since when was Gene Colan a prima donna? First you equate people being negative to Shooter as prima donnas and then you think a 50% employee satisfaction rate is something to be proud of. And Shooter's biggest supporter in his first few years as EIC, John Byrne, also left Marvel cursing Jim on the way out.Jim Shooter's blog is a self-serving propaganda piece extolling his own virtues. He couldn't say it better himself. Wait..he did say it about himself Maybe, but I haven't heard or read if any of the people written about refute what he said. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 23, 2017 10:56:16 GMT -5
First you equate people being negative to Shooter as prima donnas and then you think a 50% employee satisfaction rate is something to be proud of. And Shooter's biggest supporter in his first few years as EIC, John Byrne, also left Marvel cursing Jim on the way out.Jim Shooter's blog is a self-serving propaganda piece extolling his own virtues. He couldn't say it better himself. Wait..he did say it about himself Maybe, but I haven't heard or read if any of the people written about refute what he said. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 23, 2017 11:18:44 GMT -5
I guess you choose to ignore the responses in Tony's very blog backing up Shooters claims. Sorry, I choose to believe the accomplished Shootwr over a minor league writer like Isabella.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 23, 2017 11:19:27 GMT -5
First you equate people being negative to Shooter as prima donnas and then you think a 50% employee satisfaction rate is something to be proud of. And Shooter's biggest supporter in his first few years as EIC, John Byrne, also left Marvel cursing Jim on the way out.Jim Shooter's blog is a self-serving propaganda piece extolling his own virtues. He couldn't say it better himself. Wait..he did say it about himself Maybe, but I haven't heard or read if any of the people written about refute what he said. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 23, 2017 11:26:58 GMT -5
First you equate people being negative to Shooter as prima donnas and then you think a 50% employee satisfaction rate is something to be proud of. And Shooter's biggest supporter in his first few years as EIC, John Byrne, also left Marvel cursing Jim on the way out.Jim Shooter's blog is a self-serving propaganda piece extolling his own virtues. He couldn't say it better himself. Wait..he did say it about himself Maybe, but I haven't heard or read if any of the people written about refute what he said. |
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