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Post by The Captain on Mar 24, 2017 11:01:35 GMT -5
I sometimes think I'm the only person around here who still enjoys modern comics. I like Fables, Fairest, the first couple Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel series, the first couple Matt Fraction-written Hawkeye series, Saga, Chew, Aquaman, Doctor Strange, Moon Knight, and Batman '66. I used to like Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Avengers, and Uncanny X-Men, up until about five years ago, at which point Marvel started doing everything in their power to ruin the characters I liked in the name of diversity and media attention and branding, all done to boost that stock price a couple of pennies per quarter so the Disney shareholders can feel good about their investment in Marvel's properties. I was actually excited about the first Sam Wilson as Cap series by Rick Remender, because I thought it was an interesting turn on the character. Having Sam, with a different perspective on what "America" needed from Captain America, carrying the shield should have been great, but it only lasted six issues, and then they turned the reins over to Nick Spencer. What Spencer has done is write one long love letter to liberal America, portraying anyone who is white, conservative, or business-oriented as evil and/or racist, taking what was an awesome concept about having a Captain America working for and understanding the needs of all Americans and turning it into nothing more than race-baiting "us against them" drivel. So he was Comic Cubed into a Hydra Agent? Okay, still glad I don't read Marvel anymore.  Fine. Whatever. I'm enjoying it, that's all I care about. What specifically are you enjoying about this storyline? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested in knowing, because I find it to be horrible, so hearing that someone else likes it makes me curious. My biggest complaint with it, outside of the fact that it is just dragging on and on with nothing ever actually happening so they can make the endgame this year's big summer event, is that it doesn't work as Marvel says it does. I'm expected to go back and look at every Cap story ever written and think that underneath every action, every sacrifice, every move Cap ever made, it was all because he was secretly an agent of Hydra? Now Marvel wants to say that knowing that doesn't invalidate those stories, it just adds depth to them, but that's the essence of a retcon, which is putting something there that wasn't there to begin with in order to make a current story make sense. They want us to to buy that the real reason Cap was opposing the Red Skull was because Cap was trying to take Hydra to its true potential and the Red Skull was perverting Hydra's vision, which apparently was that of repainting community centers, building playgrounds for children, and feeding and clothing the poor. Spencer is actually casting Hydra as the good guys, just trying to make the world better for everyone until that mean old Nazi Red Skull came along, which is just patently ridiculous. This story fails on so many levels, it isn't even funny. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 24, 2017 11:42:21 GMT -5
I sometimes think I'm the only person around here who still enjoys modern comics. I like Fables, Fairest, the first couple Kamala Khan Ms. Marvel series, the first couple Matt Fraction-written Hawkeye series, Saga, Chew, Aquaman, Doctor Strange, Moon Knight, and Batman '66. I used to like Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Avengers, and Uncanny X-Men, up until about five years ago, at which point Marvel started doing everything in their power to ruin the characters I liked in the name of diversity and media attention and branding, all done to boost that stock price a couple of pennies per quarter so the Disney shareholders can feel good about their investment in Marvel's properties. I was actually excited about the first Sam Wilson as Cap series by Rick Remender, because I thought it was an interesting turn on the character. Having Sam, with a different perspective on what "America" needed from Captain America, carrying the shield should have been great, but it only lasted six issues, and then they turned the reins over to Nick Spencer. What Spencer has done is write one long love letter to liberal America, portraying anyone who is white, conservative, or business-oriented as evil and/or racist, taking what was an awesome concept about having a Captain America working for and understanding the needs of all Americans and turning it into nothing more than race-baiting "us against them" drivel. Fine. Whatever. I'm enjoying it, that's all I care about. What specifically are you enjoying about this storyline? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested in knowing, because I find it to be horrible, so hearing that someone else likes it makes me curious. My biggest complaint with it, outside of the fact that it is just dragging on and on with nothing ever actually happening so they can make the endgame this year's big summer event, is that it doesn't work as Marvel says it does. I'm expected to go back and look at every Cap story ever written and think that underneath every action, every sacrifice, every move Cap ever made, it was all because he was secretly an agent of Hydra? Now Marvel wants to say that knowing that doesn't invalidate those stories, it just adds depth to them, but that's the essence of a retcon, which is putting something there that wasn't there to begin with in order to make a current story make sense. They want us to to buy that the real reason Cap was opposing the Red Skull was because Cap was trying to take Hydra to its true potential and the Red Skull was perverting Hydra's vision, which apparently was that of repainting community centers, building playgrounds for children, and feeding and clothing the poor. Spencer is actually casting Hydra as the good guys, just trying to make the world better for everyone until that mean old Nazi Red Skull came along, which is just patently ridiculous. This story fails on so many levels, it isn't even funny. Except that they aren't doing that at all, are they? There is no need to look back at those past stories beacuse we already know that the only reason Cap's past has changed is because of an external influence, and that before that was done in the wake of the Pleasant Hill event, those stories unfolded exactly as we saw them do previously. Why are you assuming they didn't? I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding, here. This is not about rewriting the past from the point of view of the readers, only from the point of view of the characters, and it's obviously not a permanent change to the status quo. I'm simply enjoying it as a current, self contained story, not trying to work out what hypothetical effect such a change would have had on several decades worth of past stories, because while that is a fun mental exercise, it's pretty obvious that until Kobik changed the timeline, none of it would have applied. . |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 24, 2017 15:58:50 GMT -5
And you are continuing to prove my point for me. This is what I meant about judging based on no information. Because this is not not what the story is saying. Marvel are not actually claiming that Cap was a lifetime Hydra agent-until a few months ago, when his personal history was rewritten by a villain using a Cosmic Cube, something which the characters are unaware of but which the readers have known since day one because we basically saw it happen. There is no retcon, all past stories are still pefectly valid from our POV, nobody is trying to tell the readership "Cap was actualy this all along", and it's fairly obvious it's a storyline with a definite ending in mind. But a horde of outraged readers who haven't actually read the book in years have picked up on a headline and decided "Marvel have retconned Cap! The bastards!" Despite the fact that, unlike DC, Marvel actually aren't known for doing that kind of thing. I was actually trying to avoid spoilering the story, but since it appears I'm the only one reading and enjoying it anyway, what the hell... That's actually the precise definition of a retcon, IMO... changing the past that we know happened and substituting something else. That's exactly what they did with Tony Stark during the Crossing (only the culprit was Time Travel rather than the Cosmic Cube). There's always an explanation, taht's what makes it a retcon and not a mistake. The nature of the business these days is such that no change is lasting... they have to protect the IP. All the more reason to disregard things you don't like. You're certainly allowed to like it, no one is saying otherwise. Clearly, someone's reading it, or it wouldn't be getting published. I was just commenting that it's exactly the sort of story that I disregard in my 'head canon' of a character. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 24, 2017 16:11:59 GMT -5
And you are continuing to prove my point for me. This is what I meant about judging based on no information. Because this is not not what the story is saying. Marvel are not actually claiming that Cap was a lifetime Hydra agent-until a few months ago, when his personal history was rewritten by a villain using a Cosmic Cube, something which the characters are unaware of but which the readers have known since day one because we basically saw it happen. There is no retcon, all past stories are still pefectly valid from our POV, nobody is trying to tell the readership "Cap was actualy this all along", and it's fairly obvious it's a storyline with a definite ending in mind. But a horde of outraged readers who haven't actually read the book in years have picked up on a headline and decided "Marvel have retconned Cap! The bastards!" Despite the fact that, unlike DC, Marvel actually aren't known for doing that kind of thing. I was actually trying to avoid spoilering the story, but since it appears I'm the only one reading and enjoying it anyway, what the hell... That's actually the precise definition of a retcon, IMO... changing the past that we know happened and substituting something else. That's exactly what they did with Tony Stark during the Crossing (only the culprit was Time Travel rather than the Cosmic Cube). There's always an explanation, taht's what makes it a retcon and not a mistake. The nature of the business these days is such that no change is lasting... they have to protect the IP. All the more reason to disregard things you don't like. You're certainly allowed to like it, no one is saying otherwise. Clearly, someone's reading it, or it wouldn't be getting published. I was just commenting that it's exactly the sort of story that I disregard in my 'head canon' of a character. But this isn't a change that was ever even intended to be lasting, it's just a finite story, no different to the Nomad storyline in the 70s, the John Walker as Cap story in the eighties or the death of Cap story after Civil War! What's so wrong with that? |
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Post by chadwilliam on Mar 24, 2017 18:25:50 GMT -5
I can't help but wince whenever a story tries to convince me that the Earth 2 Superman or Earth 2 Batman are supposed to be the same guys introduced in Action 1 and Detective 27 respectively. Really? The same squinty eyed guy who wrapped machine guns around a bunch of bad guys necks seconds before chucking them one by one out a window is doomed to become the slipper wearing, newspaper reading guy living a mundane, squeaky clean life in the pages of Superman Family? Should Batman's tombstone really read 'Killed by some guy named Jensen or something like that to get the All-Star Super Squad off their asses'?
It also doesn't help that in recent years, the Earth 2 Superman became a character to trot out every time DC wanted to take a swipe at the Siegel family. "You're claiming that the Superman from Action 1 should belong to you? Well here he is, going crazy in Infinite Crisis wanting to destroy the universe and being beaten to death by a little kid - Enjoy!" He didn't go crazy or want to destroy the universe. In Infinite Crisis he did - I'm referring to the whole 'destroy the current Earth and replace it with Earth 2' motivation of his throughout the series. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 24, 2017 19:08:54 GMT -5
That's actually the precise definition of a retcon, IMO... changing the past that we know happened and substituting something else. That's exactly what they did with Tony Stark during the Crossing (only the culprit was Time Travel rather than the Cosmic Cube). There's always an explanation, taht's what makes it a retcon and not a mistake. The nature of the business these days is such that no change is lasting... they have to protect the IP. All the more reason to disregard things you don't like. You're certainly allowed to like it, no one is saying otherwise. Clearly, someone's reading it, or it wouldn't be getting published. I was just commenting that it's exactly the sort of story that I disregard in my 'head canon' of a character. But this isn't a change that was ever even intended to be lasting, it's just a finite story, no different to the Nomad storyline in the 70s, the John Walker as Cap story in the eighties or the death of Cap story after Civil War! What's so wrong with that? Those stories all made sense... Cap being evil for 60 years doesn't. It's fine they have a reason for it, doesn't make it a better idea. Also, Pleasant Hill was a pretty terrible event (which I did read most of) that was the last straw for me for Marvel events... I was already mostly done with them... just ocassionally grabbing the last issue of them or tie ins to see if anything interesting happens.. now I'm consciously avoiding them. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Mar 24, 2017 19:28:38 GMT -5
If you had read these characters for decades as I have and seen them go through all these pretzel-bending, plastic surgery tinkerings including deaths, rebirths, face changes to resemble the movie actor and other retcon renovations were NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME yada yada....you finally realize that no, it's not the same character you once enjoyed reading. So I don't read them
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