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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 20:49:24 GMT -5
Has the practice of performers selecting their material from a supply provided by specialist songwriters who don't perform themselves made a come back in modern pop? I didn't know that ever went out of style. I think it's a combination of both for a lot of pop stars. They write some songs, their producer writes some songs, the studio acquires some songs for them. I'm not sure there's any pop stars who don't write any of their own songs currently, but there certainly could be. |
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Daryl
Junior Member
Not NOT Brand Echh
Posts: 72 
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Post by Daryl on Aug 27, 2014 20:58:58 GMT -5
From what I've seen, songwriting credits are sometimes up to seven people deep, including the credited prod cer, songwriting ringer and maybe the artist themselves. There's been some controversy in recent years over artists like Beyonce and Avril Lavigne maybe getting songwriting credits they don't deserve. I think Taylor Swift is known to be a primary songwriting force on her material.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 27, 2014 21:09:40 GMT -5
The idea that somehow Sinatra is not a real musician is so far beyond the pale that I'm utterly speechless.
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Post by Dizzy D on Aug 28, 2014 7:15:25 GMT -5
I love this version, and its one of those covers that I think it far superior to the original. You're not alone in that, Trent Raznor has been quoted to say that the sing isn't his anymore. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 8:54:38 GMT -5
The idea that somehow Sinatra is not a real musician is so far beyond the pale that I'm utterly speechless. Yeah, he was a musician. Artie Simek was a comics creator. Most people wouldn't put Simek (not denigrating him or letterers in general; I'm just pulling a name & job out of the air) on the same level as Jack Kirby or Pat Boyette (who not only drew & wrote but also lettered & colored ... hell, if he'd lived in Derby, Conn., rather than Texas, he probably would've run Charlton's presses for them, too), but YMMV. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 28, 2014 9:37:14 GMT -5
Sinatra was one of the finest singers of the 20th century, an excellent performer and entertainer, a pretty good actor, a fabulous swinging rat packer. But if you consider him a musician then you'll have to include Britney Spears, Davy Jones of the Monkees and Alvin of the Chipmunks. They all never created music or could actually play it on a professional level (Well, Davy Jones did play a mean tambourine)
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2014 9:43:30 GMT -5
The idea that somehow Sinatra is not a real musician is so far beyond the pale that I'm utterly speechless. Yeah, he was a musician. Artie Simek was a comics creator. Most people wouldn't put Simek (not denigrating him or letterers in general; I'm just pulling a name & job out of the air) on the same level as Jack Kirby or Pat Boyette (who not only drew & wrote but also lettered & colored ... hell, if he'd lived in Derby, Conn., rather than Texas, he probably would've run Charlton's presses for them, too), but YMMV. Except Sinatra was one of the most important musicians of the 20th Century. And it is simply ludicrous to try to argue otherwise. This "argument" somehow makes Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Etta James, and an enormous list of others unimportant non-musicians because they were "just vocalists." I'll take any of them over the real musicians who are writing shit songs and playing two and a half chords poorly. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 9:43:52 GMT -5
In point of fact, Merriam-Webster does define a musician as a person who writes, sings, or plays music.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2014 9:45:40 GMT -5
Sinatra was one of the finest singers of the 20th century, an excellent performer and entertainer, a pretty good actor, a fabulous swinging rat packer. But if you consider him a musician then you'll have to include Britney Spears, Davy Jones of the Monkees and Alvin of the Chipmunks. They all never created music or could actually play it on a professional level (Well, Davy Jones did play a mean tambourine) This is almost as sad as yesterday's Taco Bell paragraph. The idea that vocal interpretation of a song is not an act of creation is simply mind-boggling. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 9:46:55 GMT -5
Yeah, he was a musician. Artie Simek was a comics creator. Most people wouldn't put Simek (not denigrating him or letterers in general; I'm just pulling a name & job out of the air) on the same level as Jack Kirby or Pat Boyette (who not only drew & wrote but also lettered & colored ... hell, if he'd lived in Derby, Conn., rather than Texas, he probably would've run Charlton's presses for them, too), but YMMV. Except Sinatra was one of the most important musicians of the 20th Century. And it is simply ludicrous to try to argue otherwise. This "argument" somehow makes Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Etta James, and an enormous list of others unimportant non-musicians because they were "just vocalists." I'll take any of them over the real musicians who are writing shit songs and playing two and a half chords poorly. No doubt. But what about the real musicians who are writing good songs & playing 2 1/2 (or however many) chords well? Does, say, Bill Monroe have to take a backseat to Frank Sinatra because he didn't have the latter's pipes? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2014 9:53:04 GMT -5
Except Sinatra was one of the most important musicians of the 20th Century. And it is simply ludicrous to try to argue otherwise. This "argument" somehow makes Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Etta James, and an enormous list of others unimportant non-musicians because they were "just vocalists." I'll take any of them over the real musicians who are writing shit songs and playing two and a half chords poorly. No doubt. But what about the real musicians who are writing good songs & playing 2 1/2 (or however many) chords well? Does, say, Bill Monroe have to take a backseat to Frank Sinatra because he didn't have the latter's pipes? I'm not aware it's a zero sum game. If we recognize Sinatra as a brilliant musician we have to denigrate Monroe because he doesn't sing as well. Bill Monroe arguably created a genre of music. He certainly was instrumental in codifying it. But even Willie Nelson, who is one of the great song-writers of the century has played a TON of songs written by other people. And his greatest creation was brought to life by Patsy Cline. Who as we know wasn't a real musician in the way that say Taylor Swift is. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 28, 2014 10:08:38 GMT -5
Yeah, he was a musician. Artie Simek was a comics creator. Most people wouldn't put Simek (not denigrating him or letterers in general; I'm just pulling a name & job out of the air) on the same level as Jack Kirby or Pat Boyette (who not only drew & wrote but also lettered & colored ... hell, if he'd lived in Derby, Conn., rather than Texas, he probably would've run Charlton's presses for them, too), but YMMV. Except Sinatra was one of the most important musicians of the 20th Century. And it is simply ludicrous to try to argue otherwise. This "argument" somehow makes Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Etta James, and an enormous list of others unimportant non-musicians because they were "just vocalists." I'll take any of them over the real musicians who are writing shit songs and playing two and a half chords poorly. Aretha Franklin plays piano and wrote many of her most famous songs Billie Holiday was also a song-writer. Amongst her creations was God Bless The Child Etta James wrote many songs including the lyrics to I'd Rather Go Blind Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra were fantastic vocalists.They both depended on others for the music piece.Nothing wrong with that because they excelled in what thay did. But my singing in the shower does not make me a musician no matter how well I do it |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 10:17:12 GMT -5
No doubt. But what about the real musicians who are writing good songs & playing 2 1/2 (or however many) chords well? Does, say, Bill Monroe have to take a backseat to Frank Sinatra because he didn't have the latter's pipes? I'm not aware it's a zero sum game. If we recognize Sinatra as a brilliant musician we have to denigrate Monroe because he doesn't sing as well. Bill Monroe arguably created a genre of music. He certainly was instrumental in codifying it. But even Willie Nelson, who is one of the great song-writers of the century has played a TON of songs written by other people. And his greatest creation was brought to life by Patsy Cline. Who as we know wasn't a real musician in the way that say Taylor Swift is. No, of course it's not a zero-sum game. This is purely an intellectual (for lack of a better adjective) exercise. Would you say that Bill Monroe was, in totality, a more impressive musician than Frank Sinatra, considering all the former brought to the table that the latter didn't? As someone who's never played anything but the radio & the stereo, I'm pretty impressed by people who can play an instrument; if they add songwriting & vocals to that, I'm even more impressed. |
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Daryl
Junior Member
Not NOT Brand Echh
Posts: 72
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Post by Daryl on Aug 28, 2014 10:23:26 GMT -5
Voice really is an instrument in and of itself. The ability to hit the notes to begin with, hold them, vibrato, pronunciation, clarity, phrasing, it all goes together.
I learned to play guitar and I am fair to middling on that. I tried to learn how to sing. Can't do it except within a very limited one octave range, and even then, I lack so much in the other areas, there isn't anything about it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2014 10:34:02 GMT -5
I'm not aware it's a zero sum game. If we recognize Sinatra as a brilliant musician we have to denigrate Monroe because he doesn't sing as well. Bill Monroe arguably created a genre of music. He certainly was instrumental in codifying it. But even Willie Nelson, who is one of the great song-writers of the century has played a TON of songs written by other people. And his greatest creation was brought to life by Patsy Cline. Who as we know wasn't a real musician in the way that say Taylor Swift is. No, of course it's not a zero-sum game. This is purely an intellectual (for lack of a better adjective) exercise. Would you say that Bill Monroe was, in totality, a more impressive musician than Frank Sinatra, considering all the former brought to the table that the latter didn't? As someone who's never played anything but the radio & the stereo, I'm pretty impressed by people who can play an instrument; if they add songwriting & vocals to that, I'm even more impressed. I'd certainly say he's a more complete musician than Sinatra. He certainly isn't as good of a singer or an entertainer. I think part of the problem is that everyone thinks "well singing isn't a talent. I can sing." Maybe. But nobody wants to listen to you. My wife can sing, but it made my children cry. Pretty much anyone can write a song too. And given the quality of 90% of what is on the radio, they can do it as well as all those "real musicians" out there. This honestly smacks of the horrendously sad and elitist "real fan" and "real gamer" phenomenon. |
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