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Post by tarkintino on Jun 19, 2017 20:38:44 GMT -5
I'm in but I have to issue a warning: not too fond of his stab at 2001: A Space Odyssey....
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2017 20:47:49 GMT -5
I'm in but I have to issue a warning: not too fond of his stab at 2001: A Space Odyssey.... The Treasury Edition adaptation was problematic, but the series was full of Kirby goodness.
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Post by String on Jun 20, 2017 17:46:37 GMT -5
Another interesting topic to review. I've read the first few issues of 2001, a far cry indeed from the movie but over brimming with creativity. In some ways, the Eternals rank higher with me than the New Gods. Though I've never read any of his latter run on Cap.
I'm perplexed though by your description on Black Panther (which sadly I have yet to read as well). I don't think returning T'Challa back to his sci-fi roots is necessarily a bad idea, especially since it was Kirby himself who helped establish that foundation. Shifting the focus like that shouldn't take anything away from McGregor's work, it simply shows the dynamic expanse of his character to broach such wide genres and themes (although I can imagine the reader shock as you mentioned but was having Kirby back enough to allay those qualms?)
Either way, looking forward to this.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 21, 2017 3:21:06 GMT -5
As a kid, I had no interest whatsoever in McGregor's version of the Panther, but I absolutely loved the Kirby series-it was packed with wild ideas and fascinating characters (I still love Mr. Little). I thought his return to Cap was fantastic, too, the first Arnim Zola story remains a favourite to this day. I wasn't that keen on the Eternals, I have to admit; the first three issues or so hooked me, but for some reason after that my interest tailed off. And I never saw the point of Devil Dinosaur.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 21, 2017 6:16:50 GMT -5
As a kid, I had no interest whatsoever in McGregor's version of te Panther, but I absolutely loved the Kirby series-it was packed with wild ideas and fascinating characters (I still love Mr. Little). I thought his return to Cap was fantastic, too, the first Arnim Zola story remains a favourite to this day. I wasn't that keen on the Eternals, I have to admit; the first three issues or so hooked me, but for soe reason after that my interest tailed off. And I never saw the point of Devil Dinosaur. Reading your assessment, I feel I should rename myself ortermagrnit! I appear to be the bizarro version of you when it comes to these titles! I found the Kirby Panther so bad I had to force myself to read it to the end. After McGregor's dealing with politics and responsibility, racism, emotional dependence and more themes rarely explored in comics, the Panther's new Saturday morning cartoon adventures felt like a huge step backwards rather than a breath of fresh air. Kind of like what had happened with Captain America, although in that case the tone wasn't so Bugs Bunny-like. The Eternals was where Kirby truly shined in that period; that's where his world building ability truly manifested itself. Von Daniken and Kirby went together like peanut butter and chocolate. Sheer awesomeness! Devil Dinosaur was lighter, but unlike what happened in Black Panther it didn't interrupt a deep and complex storyline so I could more easily enjoy it for what it was. 2001 had nice graphics but had a repetitive formula... and the introduction of aliens was a very bad move, IMO. It felt as if Kirby understood why the mysterious, quasi-mystical nature of 2001 was appealing, but didn't know what to do with it exactly (since he hadn't created it, unlike what was happening in The Eternals, which dealt with a similar theme of cosmic evolution). Issue after issue, 2001 read like an alternate version of the film rather than a continuation. Not uninteresting, and even rather intriguing at first, but starting to sound a little hollow after a while.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2017 8:08:36 GMT -5
I agree somewhat, early in that series Kirby struggled with making the movie concept work in comic. I am not as negative about it as you, but I concede your point. But, as the series went on, Kirby used it a springboard for new ideas as he left the movie behind, finally giving birth to Mr. Machine, aka Machine Man. Which was a late Kirby gem.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 21, 2017 11:35:06 GMT -5
I'm in. I've read some of the Black Panther, all of The Eternals, and a good chunk of Captain America and Machine Man. I'm interested in 2001 (Machine Man's first appearance!) and Devil Dinosaur, too.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 21, 2017 15:02:13 GMT -5
As a kid, I had no interest whatsoever in McGregor's version of the Panther, but I absolutely loved the Kirby series-it was packed with wild ideas and fascinating characters (I still love Mr. Little). I thought his return to Cap was fantastic, too, the first Arnim Zola story remains a favourite to this day. I wasn't that keen on the Eternals, I have to admit; the first three issues or so hooked me, but for some reason after that my interest tailed off. And I never saw the point of Devil Dinosaur. Yeah, for most folks it was just too jarring of a change to suddenly go from McGregor and Graham to Kirby on Black Panther. For those of us readers who knew the history of the Panther's beginnings from Stan and Jack in the FF it was fun seeing his version again. To anybody new it would be rather shocking.These days with sudden cancellations or changes in directions there might not be as strong of a negativity but in the 70's with less communication and forewarning such a different approach was highly unusual. And i was hooked immediately on Eternals, thinking it a better comic than New God's perhaps for not having experienced New God's as it came out but finding it as back issues with an issue here or there and with Eternals i was finding each issue brand new as it came out. Plus visually Eternals was bright and colorful emphasizing positive attitudes where as New Gods is dark and foreboding with more focus upon negatives.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 21, 2017 15:23:06 GMT -5
In 1975, at Marvelcon 75, during a Fantastic Four panel, Stan Lee announced that Kirby was coming back! Fans were buzzing at the thought of Kirby returning to the company that he helped lift from the brink of extinction into the market leader. I was in the room when Stan made that announcement. I recall it being a "Keynote address" rather than an FF panel, but it was certainly electrifying! Well, that was a wikipedia source; so, you know...
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Post by berkley on Jun 21, 2017 16:11:48 GMT -5
You know, it never occurred to me before but the obvious solution to the Kirby vs McGregor Black Panther problem would have been to run two the separate series concurrently. After all, they had two or three different Spider-Man books going, each of which was supposed to have a different focus, so why not the Panther?
That question's easy to answer, of course: the Panther wasn't nearly as popular as S-M and the characterisation of S-M was much the same in all his different series. But I still think it would have been an excellent way of handling the situation. This is a case where an over-riding concern with continuity or shared universe consistency would get in the way of doing the right thing. And aother instance of why it would be better for readers, creators, and basically everyone except Marvel, Inc if these characters were all in the public domain.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 21, 2017 16:38:46 GMT -5
Eternals #1 When Jack Kirby came back to Marvel, one of his more imaginative series, carrying on the themes of the 4th World, was The Eternals. However, it was originally intended to have a different title: Ironically, when DC relaunched the New Gods, after Kirby's departure (with Gerry Conway), they titled it Return of the New Gods, on the covers. Fortuitously, the title change (forced by Marvel's legal department, over fears of infringement) worked better, as The Eternals is the kind of title that grabs your attention and stirs your imagination. The series itself was inspired by Erich Von Daniken's bestselling "non-fiction" book, Chariots of the Gods. I use quotation marks because the book is filled with a lot of massive leaps in logic, poor science, and bad archeology. However, it presents an imaginative idea of alien visitors who set up advanced cities in different sites, around the globe; especially, Latin America. Jack Kirby was intrigued by the idea and decided to create a comic where the ancient Incas and other races had been the products of experiments by a group of advanced aliens, The Celestials. These giant armored "gods" came down to Earth, in the pre-historic past, and set about messing with the inhabitants. The end result were two advanced races, the god-like Eternals, and the monstrous Deviants. We learn that these beings were the inspirations for myths, through the centuries. We also learn that they are still around, and that the Celestials are coming back! The issue opens with explorers entering a secret chamber, in the Andes... The scope and wonder of this chamber lets Kirby go to town, as we see figures of immense size, who bring to mind astronauts, thematically. The mysterious young blond man, Ike, seems to know all about it, while the expert, Dr Damian, seems like a babe in the woods. Ike is able to unlock the secrets of the place with ease, while Dr Damian and his daughter, Margo, treat Ike's theories of all human history related to this find with some amusement. Meanwhile, a military jet encounters a strange phenomena and the pilot is forced to eject. We learn that the source is a weapon of a race of weird creatures, who call themselves Deviants. The Deviants were created by the alien Celestials; but, their DNA is unstable and each generation differs from the previous. In times past, the Deviants were all but destroyed in a scourge and they fear the return of the Celestials. Kro, a warrior of the Deviants is dispatched to prevent Ike and the humans from activating the beacon that will bring back the Celestials. Meanwhile, Ike recounts the original visit of the Celestials and how they altered evolution, creating the Deviants, Homo Sapiens, and the Eternals. The Eternals went to dwell in mountainous regions, apart from humans, and became known as gods to the under-developed humans. The Deviants often came in conflict with the humans, and formed the legends of monsters in human lore. We see that the Deviant city is in the remains of the lost continent Lemuria. Kro and his troops arrive, via underwater passage, in the Inca chamber and launch an attack on the explorers. Ike reveals the scope of his powers as he unleashes tremendous energy to fight off the Deviants. The battle is interrupted by a tremendous sound as we see a massive ship arrive. The Celestials have returned! Kirby hits the ground running and the book awes and astounds from page one. The images of the Inca chamber, with the giant space gods is an amazing piece of art and it grabbed my attention, in an era where I thought Kirby's art was too blocky and weird (I was young and stupid; what can I say?) The stuff that put me off on some of his other comics worked so well, here. Kirby's art , by the time of the 4th World, had progressed to mythical power and scope and he brings that to bear, here. His love of sci-fi is on hand, as we see that our myths are the product of encounters with the experiments of awe-inspiring alien beings. Kirby is cagey, though, as he doesn't yet reveal the Celestials, leaving us to wonder what they look like. That wonder makes us want to come back for the next issue. Kirby really captures the style of pre-Columbian Native American art and sculpture, though maybe a bit more Aztec than Inca. His blocky style really blends well with those images, giving us a slightly skewed, but no less fascinating design aesthetic. The series was intended to be a stand-alone and there is nothing here that says this takes place in the known Marvel Universe. At this point, Kirby is in control and unveiling his new creation, which makes it exciting. The characters are a bit thin; but, it is the opening story; so, Kirby is more concerned with grabbing our attention and setting up this new world. We will get more character as the series develops. Right now, we just bask in awe of Kirby's cosmic wonder. As for the material itself, it is familiar territory, for Kirby. He dabbled in alien manipulation of evolution with the Kree and Inhumans, in the Fantastic Four, as well as space gods, with Thor and the 4th World. However, the dynamic here is a bit different, especially with the Deviants thrown in. They are supposed to be the villains; yet, Kirby actually makes them a bit sympathetic. They were created flawed and then punished by their fathers. They fear their return, with good reason. They act out of self-preservation. As we will see, this depth goes even further, as Kro will prove to be a complex character, and other Deviants will show that even monsters have souls. As a side note, marvel had already dabbled in Von Daniken, in Marvel Preview (magazine) #1
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2017 21:38:40 GMT -5
Too bad that there wasn't an Image Comics or Dark Horse for creator owned. Kirby could have developed this without interference. Of course like much of Kirby's work, his ideas become intrigal to the bigger Univere.
GOTG 2 is has a big chunk of Kirby. Ego, Celestials, etc...
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Post by berkley on Jun 21, 2017 21:57:41 GMT -5
Too bad that there wasn't an Image Comics or Dark Horse for creator owned. Kirby could have developed this without interference. Of course like much of Kirby's work, his ideas become intrigal to the bigger Univere. GOTG 2 is has a big chunk of Kirby. Ego, Celestials, etc... I sympathise with the wish that he could have kept control of his creations and written them for as long as he wanted to, though who knows if he could have afforded to work as an independent. Of course, if he'd been compensated for all his earlier MU creations maybe that would have freed him to focus on his new ideas in the 70s. GotG2 has some characters they call Ego and Celestials but they bear little resemblance to Kirby's creations beyond the names. Probably just as well - I enjoy those movies for the light entertainment they are, but I don't think the film-makers have it in them to bring Kirby's ideas or even his unique visual style to the screen.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 21, 2017 22:37:36 GMT -5
Too bad that there wasn't an Image Comics or Dark Horse for creator owned. Kirby could have developed this without interference. Of course like much of Kirby's work, his ideas become intrigal to the bigger Univere. GOTG 2 is has a big chunk of Kirby. Ego, Celestials, etc... Well, Simon & Kirby tried to go it alone and ran smack into the 50s hysteria. I think the only place where Jack would have gotten the freedom to develop his work, without interference, was Europe, with something like Metal Hurlant. In the US, maybe if he had had a patron like Hugh Heffner; but, even Harvey Kurtzman didn't get that much mileage out of that relationship. Warren had the right mindset; but, didn't put the money behind it that Kirby's vision would have really needed. Jack's stuff cries out for color, no matter how great it looks in black & white. Thing is, it took the market a long time to catch up to Kirby's visions. I think if he had been compensated better at Marvel (and given the security he wanted, for his family) and turned loose, he could have produced that material unfettered. The problem would have been in the marketing of it, which is something DC and Marvel lacked. Really, if the Kirby of the 60s and early 70s had had the backing of the DC management of the 80s, and the resources of Warner Communications, he could have had something massive and been compensated far better (though probably not equitably).
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 22, 2017 1:05:42 GMT -5
I'm in but I have to issue a warning: not too fond of his stab at 2001: A Space Odyssey.... I have the Treasury but don't remember anything from it. At one time I had some of the issues. When I finally get the collection straightened out, I'll know. Based on what everyone has said, I'm down with it. There's no such thing as "bad" Kirby.
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