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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 8, 2017 21:08:04 GMT -5
I wonder with all the actual problems we have in society, why elected officals feel they have to pander to such a degree that we're passing legislation about bathrooms and pronouns instead of, oh, you know, the budget, or healthcare.
I understand that some things are essentially free positive press, but it's just so far over the top.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 8, 2017 21:23:31 GMT -5
In respect to DanBintheUnderworld, I'd like to add something.
Harvey is a hero of mine.
He dressed as a clown, making people smile, and gave out balloons to people during a very hard economical time for 'people on the street', and he did this for everybody, regardless of sexual or racial identity.
something that sjw's have provably forgotten.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 8, 2017 21:26:19 GMT -5
I wonder with all the actual problems we have in society, why elected officals feel they have to pander to such a degree that we're passing legislation about bathrooms and pronouns instead of, oh, you know, the budget, or healthcare. I understand that some things are essentially free positive press, but it's just so far over the top. I get that, I respect that, but with respect, legislation, healthcare etc. are political disputes, and out of respect to the mods whom locked the political thread, I'm attempting to stay sociological, here. Since the mods here give us far more lee-way and patience than 'elsewhere'. But I enjoy your point, and in a politics thread, would agree.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 8, 2017 21:58:09 GMT -5
Sometimes, sociological concerns are presented as political concerns, because the sociological urge feeds the political action, or political statement, or political post.
Yet the sociological is-what-it-is, apart-and-separate from the political-expression.
The conflation of the sociological with the political, and the heated cortisol-fueled emotions posted afterwards, is part-and-parcel of why, IMO, many politics threads on many sites have to be locked. Though on some sites (not this one), they are merely locked (followed by even-handed people being banned) to 'tow-a-party-line'.
Confessor spoke of how maybe potential members here, female potential members, may not have joined due to the Sexy Covers thread...
The same can be said of many potential female (and non-cis) members not joining 'other comics boards' because they don't wish to be beholden to 'knee-jerk, over-the-top-to-get-attention, hyperbolic' pseudo-gender-politics-shenannigans.
And why, these days, people claiming to be 'inclusive' are actually 'divisive' and violent towards those attempting to me 'inclusive', and non-violent, anti-violence, as per Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr., and Harvey Milk.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 9, 2017 7:25:43 GMT -5
I wonder with all the actual problems we have in society, why elected officals feel they have to pander to such a degree that we're passing legislation about bathrooms and pronouns instead of, oh, you know, the budget, or healthcare. I understand that some things are essentially free positive press, but it's just so far over the top. Politics is like magic: it's mostly about misdirection. When people argue about toilets, they're not discussing the budget deficit, trade imbalance, environmental degradation, income inequality or political corruption.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 9, 2017 7:54:12 GMT -5
Bill C-16 is mostly a redundant law that states we can not discriminate against people based on their gender identity ("redundant" because discimination in any form was already pretty much covered). But many Liberal MPs are seeing an opportunity to look oh-so tolerant and inclusive with it, so they're making impassioned speeches about how their abjectly ignorant eyes have been opened by activist groups. The day somebody actually gets charged for refusing to use the pronoun "Xvzze" instead of "he", "she" or "they" is the day I finally vote for the Conservatives. There's a bloody limit to imposing rightspeak to a society. (And while I realize that this is not the Politics thread, I'd like to say that this kind of unnecessary and over the top legislation is precisely what sends middle-of-the-fence voters to the right). just you wait. kidding (i hope). I wouldn't have problem with it all if the list of pronouns were not so abstruse, bordering on arcane, then made purposefully-difficult for people older than millenials to find/learn/ accept-or-reject. Setting people up for 'getting in trouble' on this issue is like make making all complaints about people getting screwed on old-age pensions only possible via web-sites/digital communication vs. the landline phones, when so many people with old-age pensions suffer hands that can't handle the manual-demands of digital communication. I have no problem with referring to people as "Mxyzptlk", as you aptly put, if they do so desire. I think it's just basic politeness to call people by the name or pronoun they want me to use. What ruffles my feather is the legal obligation to get a pronoun right, associated with the "hate crime" label if I fail to do so. I perused the statements of our Liberal MPs on the issue (that's the Liberal party, not necessarily all MPs leaning left). I was honestly dismayed by their shameless pandering to an interest group, certainly, but mostly by their use of the term "transphobic" applied to those who voted against bill C-16. As the Will Farell meme says, "boy, that escalated quickly". The whole issue has created the concept of an entire spectrum of gender identities, one that is now essentially dissociated from an individual's sex. The matter is psychologically interesting, but in parallel to serious studies on the matter we also have what is clearly a fad; a fad that claims just about anything can be described as a gender identity (hence the very amusing joke about the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter being a valid one). I find it deplorable that going beyond the self-evident position that discrimination against anyone based on anything else than their actions should be illegal, my government seems to adopt that fad whole-heartedly, wrapping itself in a big mantle of virtue with a maple leaf on it. It is not transphobia to think that the mandatory adoption of umpteen different pronouns to reflect the umpteen different self-attributed new genders in that spectrum is both unmanageable and a source of irritation in the rest of the population. A spectrum is usually defined by its extremes and sometimes by its middle; the English language already has pronouns to cover these possibilities: "she-they-he". Any other pronoun added to the lot should be handled not by the legal system, but just like any other grammatical addition, by common use. "Ms." is not a term that was imposed; it was introduced, and people either used it or not, depending on the wishes of individual. It was not (or I suppose it was not, I haven't checked) deemed a sexist crime to call a woman "Mrs." or "Miss" before she corrected us to say "Ms." It would be grotesque if using "he" to describe a person with a beard became a crime. It would just generate anger toward the population the law is meant to protect.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 9, 2017 8:02:11 GMT -5
That's certainly true, RR!
To get back to Sociology...
I hate the term 'snowflake' as a insult (no matter the political persuasion), but the underlying trend it underlines is perhaps more scary. I feel like the current generation of children, who were raised with 'everyone is special' and 'participation awards' and being practically banned from actual difficult competition are going to have a great deal of trouble functioning in the real world. Clearly, you can abuse a kid without realizing it by pushing too hard, or cause real harm by parents living vicariously through their kids, but in doing so, have we gone to far in the other direction?
You don't get a particpation award if you're company loses a client, or fails to close a contract, you get laid off. And some people just aren't that special, but grasp far beyond any logical means because they've been told they are.
I think some of the social issues like the pronoun thing we have today even might stem from that... it's definitely 'hip' today to be LBQT-whatever... my high school daughter identities lesbian right now (though she's not actually had any sort of reliationship) and a far higher % of kids she hangs with do the same than did even 10 years ago when I little sister was in school.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 9, 2017 10:28:18 GMT -5
I agree, Wildfire, and seeing my kids graduate from the modern school system I can see how the best of intentions (to protect children from unpleasantness) completely backfired by turning a lot of them into constant victims. It also taught them, much to my chagrin, that self-reliance is something to be frowned upon.
Anecdote time, even if anecdotes don't prove anything.
A dozen years ago, a friend's kid, the sweetest little boy you can imagine, was in something like second of third grade. As in every school in the province (and, I imagine, the country), the school was plastered with posters extolling the virtue of discussion and negociation in the resolution of conflicts. (Whoever came up with those messages never faced a schoolyard bully, I am sure).
So, getting back to the kid. One of his own buddies was called a bad name and a shouting match ensued. My friend's kid took the side of his pal and when shoved he shoved back, causing his opponent to (get this...) fall on his rump. That's when a teacher intervened, but since we live in the XXI century the teacher didn't just bellow "hey, kids! break that up immediately!" The teacher took my friend's kid to the principal's office, where he didn't get a lecture on how it's wrong to push another kid so that he falls on his butt; no, he got an official letter, to be signed by the parents, warning that if his antisocial behaviour did not cease immediately, he would be subjected to disciplinary measures that could go as fas as his being thrown out of school.
No joke. That really happened. To the sweetest kid imaginable, who just tried to stand by a friend against a very low-level aggression. I swear, it's as if Stalin was in charge, but a Stalin wearing pink goggles and a carebear shirt.
This is also the kind of school where kids aren't allowed to chase after each other in the schoolyard, or play king of the mountain in winter. Cops and robbers is also forbidden. It's considered "violent".
What are we teaching kids? We're not protecting them from the deep, deep trauma of being thrown off a snowbank. We're not protecting them from the fact that violence does exist in the world. We're not even protecting them from bullies, because bullies will always find a way; if they can't pick on you openly, they'll do it discreetly, and you're not allowed to defend yourself. What we are telling children, however, is that the system is rigged against them, and that any attempt to stand for themselves will be met with punishment. (Oh, I'm sorry... punishment doesn't exist anymore, as it's a bad word... I meant "consequence". Singular, even, just so it's more ridiculous).
I remember the schoolyard of fourty years ago. There were bullies back then, too. Fights were usually broken up by a teacher, and both parties were brought to the school's principal who would give an ineffectual sermon. The sermon was part of a ritual, but didn't really matter; what really mattered was that after the initial (and usually disastrous) first fight, we'd quickly learn to get over the humiliation, learn to stand for ourselves, and learn to take a punch. I never saw a bully continue picking on someone who fought back; bullies prefer easy victims.
Does that mean we should let the little savages have a go at each other? No, that's not what I mean; but instead of trying to pretend that the world is not a hard and often cruel place, we should teach them how to defend themselves... and ideally how to stand up for those who aren't as strong as they are. Teaching martial arts to kids, I was always very happy to see the shy and quiet ones gain confidence, and learn not only to hit (which is easy) but to take a hit without feeling emotionally wrecked. Likewise, the few bullies who learn discipline and self-control are a source of great satisfaction.
Not that I want the victims of bullies to go all ninja on their persecutors either! But the self-confidence that comes with having been in a fight, even a controlled one with rules and everything, makes one better able to handle the emotional stress of being picked upon. Usually it means one can meet insult with insult, or with assured dignity if one is really sure of oneself. No need for actual violence, but as Ghandi said, you can't claim to be non-violent if you can't defend yourself at all.
It doesn't work with everyone, but it is my firm convinction that exposing kids to unpleasantness in a controlled environment will do much more for their development than keeping them wrapped in cotton and then release them into a Big World that has no intention of respecting their "specialness" and inner beauty of whatever.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 9, 2017 22:17:37 GMT -5
thanks, guys. The problem with ‘snowflake’ as a term is that it was not coined by ‘venomous conservatives’. It was coined by Happy Shiny People long before that, in the New Age blah blah of 1980’s California where it was first said to emotionally disenfranchised housewives, sick of/bored-to-death-by their hubbies. Then, after that snake-oil worked, it was quickly spread like chickenpox by half-arsed ‘hack’ teachers, and people ‘lecturing to’ grade-schoolers/primary-schoolers and their ‘educators’. I remember it well, and I remember going off on it like Truman Capote* after 4 or 5 Cosmopolitans too many. I recall the bullpuckey so clearly, from the snake-oil-purveyors [xey]: ’like a snowflake, everyone is unique, and a piece of art like Mother Nature’s Winter, and together, snowflakes can be separate, yet, linked together, to form snow. And from snow, we can make igloos, and glorious sculptures…’I kid you not. The problem was when they had no ‘real’ answers to direct/fair questions (such as my own): me: What about how snowflakes melt the moment you touch them? Not exactly STURDY. What about how fragile snowflakes are? Is that a fair paradigm to force upon people behind the 8 ball who need more stability in appreciation of what they are? And why the focus on “beautiful” when you’re blathering about ‘acceptance’? Harvey Milk fought creatively to be accepted, but he FOUGHT. And he often wasn’t sickly-sweet about it. What about people like Harvey?’ xey (the purveyors of snowflake snake-oil): ‘I don’t know what you mean’.me: Uhhhh, I think you do, but let’s call it like it is, it won’t “sell stuff” for you or get you a grant. or a speaking engagement pin PBS/NPR. So… What about my butch-top female pals? what about the “hailstones”? vs “snowflakes”? Hailstones are sturdy. Surviving great falls from high distances landing on hot hard ground. More resistant to temperature fluctuation. Able to smash in a car-window. Easier to draw, by the way,by znyone whom learns to draw, and if captured in paint by an artist with work-ethic, BEAUTIFUL. What about them?’ xey: ‘That’s not what we’re here today to talk about.’me: ‘You mean “promote”. and gain benefit from. I get it. but I also GET IT.’. So, yeah, the current use of ‘snowflake’ is ###@!!!, but the initial use, the pathetically-intended use, was far more pernicious, conniving, and worse, in general. *Tru has been a hero for me and an Icon to me since the ‘use your goddamn PRONOUNS!’ scene in Murder by Death, btw.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 9, 2017 23:06:16 GMT -5
That's certainly true, RR! To get back to Sociology... I hate the term 'snowflake' as a insult (no matter the political persuasion), but the underlying trend it underlines is perhaps more scary. I feel like the current generation of children, who were raised with 'everyone is special' and 'participation awards' and being practically banned from actual difficult competition are going to have a great deal of trouble functioning in the real world. Clearly, you can abuse a kid without realizing it by pushing too hard, or cause real harm by parents living vicariously through their kids, but in doing so, have we gone to far in the other direction? You don't get a particpation award if you're company loses a client, or fails to close a contract, you get laid off. And some people just aren't that special, but grasp far beyond any logical means because they've been told they are. I think some of the social issues like the pronoun thing we have today even might stem from that... it's definitely 'hip' today to be LBQT-whatever... my high school daughter identities lesbian right now (though she's not actually had any sort of reliationship) and a far higher % of kids she hangs with do the same than did even 10 years ago when I little sister was in school. In as much as it's the right-wing insult de jure and in as much as they habitually whine and cry like nobody's business I love throwing it in their face. As to the bulk of your post...I find t to be stereotyping of the highest order. And like most stereotypes, I find it pretty inaccurate. First, the current generation of children didn't ask for the participation ribbons, trophies, etc. If they are, in fact, actually getting them in extremis. So if we're going to put blame, let's put blame on the parents who gave them out in the first place. Boomers and X'ers, step right up for your shaming. You decided to give out the "awards" so you could feel better about little Johnny and Janie. I really see no signs that the current generation are any more prone to believing they're special than any other generation. In many ways it's the opposite because they, by and large, recognize that previous generations have screwed up the economy and the environment to a point where they're going to suffer. These are the exact same complaints that your parents and grandparents had about the kids nowadays with their long hair and their bell-bottom trousers and their Moby Grape. The Boomers have, by and large, become Grandpa Simpson and the X'ers are doing their best to follow along. It's maybe possible that it's not actually "hip" to be LGBetc. but that people can actually express their true self without, as much, fear of being shunned, beaten and killed.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 9, 2017 23:31:03 GMT -5
agree/ disagree, point by point.
but at least we're not 'platforming' here.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 10, 2017 0:45:17 GMT -5
That's certainly true, RR! To get back to Sociology... In as much as it's the right-wing insult de jure and in as much as they habitually whine and cry like nobody's business I love throwing it in their face. As to the bulk of your post... I find t to be stereotyping of the highest order. And like most stereotypes, I find it pretty inaccurate. First, the current generation of children didn't ask for the participation ribbons, trophies, etc. If they are, in fact, actually getting them in extremis. So if we're going to put blame, let's put blame on the parents who gave them out in the first place. Boomers and X'ers, step right up for your shaming. You decided to give out the "awards" so you could feel better about little Johnny and Janie. I really see no signs that the current generation are any more prone to believing they're special than any other generation. In many ways it's the opposite because they, by and large, recognize that previous generations have screwed up the economy and the environment to a point where they're going to suffer. These are the exact same complaints that your parents and grandparents had about the kids nowadays with their long hair and their bell-bottom trousers and their Moby Grape. The Boomers have, by and large, become Grandpa Simpson and the X'ers are doing their best to follow along. It's maybe possible that it's not actually "hip" to be LGBetc. but that people can actually express their true self without, as much, fear of being shunned, beaten and killed. 1: yes, but that's not how 'snowflake' began. just like other such descriptives began differently and either 'evolved' or 'devolved' ['queer', as a term, evolved]. 2: i refer you to the term 'twink' which has been used by queer pundits in arguments for AND against queer marriage by noteworthy queerfolk of non anglo derivation such as Ben Law/Benjamin Law 3: the people whom put Felarca into the position she holds now. more later.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 10, 2017 1:14:05 GMT -5
I wonder with all the actual problems we have in society, why elected officals feel they have to pander to such a degree that we're passing legislation about bathrooms and pronouns instead of, oh, you know, the budget, or healthcare. I understand that some things are essentially free positive press, but it's just so far over the top. Politics is like magic: it's mostly about misdirection. When people argue about toilets, they're not discussing the budget deficit, trade imbalance, environmental degradation, income inequality or political corruption. which is why i prefer sociology, where you have to back your 'faeces' up. and take a personal risk. at least in part. unless you're a BAMN Community College 'professor' claiming to be Marxist then smashing an innocent person's head with a bike-lock. ON CAMERA. for Felarca.
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Post by Confessor on Jul 10, 2017 2:18:32 GMT -5
I really see no signs that the current generation are any more prone to believing they're special than any other generation. In many ways it's the opposite because they, by and large, recognize that previous generations have screwed up the economy and the environment to a point where they're going to suffer. I deal or interact with so-called Millennials on a fairly regular basis as part of my job hosting open mic nights and I agree that, based on my experience with that age group in that setting, there's little or no evidence that they're really any different to my generation (X'ers) when we were their age. However, my wife works in the London office of a really big civil engineering company -- an American company actually -- and they have speacially trained personnel, whose job it is to ease Millenials into the workplace because their expectations of working life are so completely out of whack with reality. My wife works in HR and she says that the unrealistic expectations of this age group is a very real challenge for her department. Talking to her, it doesn't appear that this is unique to her company either, but something that is becoming increasingly common in large multinational companies. So, I think there must be something in the notion that Millenials have been spoilt, overly pampered and molly coddled throughout their schooling, to the point where they're quite unprepared for adult life. Especially if large multinationals are spending money on staff whose job it is to deal with them when they first enter the workplace.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 10, 2017 5:05:55 GMT -5
I really see no signs that the current generation are any more prone to believing they're special than any other generation. In many ways it's the opposite because they, by and large, recognize that previous generations have screwed up the economy and the environment to a point where they're going to suffer. I deal or interact with so-called Millennials on a fairly regular basis as part of my job hosting open mic nights and I agree that, based on my experience with that age group in that setting, there's little or no evidence that they're really any different to my generation (X'ers) when we were their age. However, my wife works in the London office of a really big civil engineering company -- an American company actually -- and they have speacially trained personnel, whose job it is to ease Millenials into the workplace because their expectations of working life are so completely out of whack with reality. My wife works in HR and she says that the unrealistic expectations of this age group is a very real challenge for her department. Talking to her, it doesn't appear that this is unique to her company either, but something that is becoming increasingly common in large multinational companies. So, I think there must be something in the notion that Millenials have been spoilt, overly pampered and molly coddled throughout their schooling, to the point where they're quite unprepared for adult life. Especially if large multinationals are spending money on staff whose job it is to deal with them when they first enter the workplace. "How do I see myself as fitting with your company? Well, I'd like to make 200,000 a year, have a nice house in the country, have a flexible schedule to accomodate my other activities and a lot of vacation time because I want to live while I'm young and not waste it all behind a desk like you. I also want to marry the boss's daughter and become a senior V.P. within five years and retire by the age of forty-five."
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