Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958 
|
Post by Crimebuster on Aug 8, 2017 11:24:36 GMT -5
Oh, I think I figured out some of my own confusion. I was thinking of ties in terms of numbers of votes cast, but since the votes each have a point value, the chances of there being actual ties is much less at the top of the chart anyway where it matters. So even if three people vote for X-Men as a whole and three vote for Dark Phoenix, one of them will have more points than the other based on the rankings, and will then absorb the lower total as well.
Man, that's a lot of math for shaxper to figure out!
I think it may result in a couple weird quirks, like a much longer saga being included as part of a shorter one, but I don't really have a problem with that. I recall from last time that each entry lists the specific votes, so for me personally, even if my vote for Mansion Siege were to be folded into a larger run like Stern's Avengers, since the listing would still specify what I actually voted for, I'm cool with it. I do think it's better in general to have a cleaner list instead of one where there are eight overlapping versions of the same story.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 8, 2017 14:40:40 GMT -5
Been a crazy day, and it isn't over yet, but I see there are some good questions out there, so I thought I'd drop in to address them: Is it possible that an honorable mention will place higher than one that placed at 10 ? Absolutely. It's a point system: So if "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" is one person's #11 and another person's #14, that's 15 points, whereas if Batman: Year Two appears on one person's #10 and nowhere else, it only gets 10 points. So, a couple questions about this, just to clarify in my confused mind. I think I understand, I just want to make sure I have this right. If someone votes for a long run, but more people vote for a shorter saga within that run, the longer run will be counted as a vote for the smaller run, is that correct? Example: shaxper votes for Chris Claremont's entire X-Men run. Two other people vote for the Dark Phoenix Saga. shaxper's vote will be counted as a vote for Dark Phoenix. Yes. And while no one's going to be completely happy about that, it's better than having both nominations sit at the bottom of the list and somewhat repeating each other when, combined, they score much higher. Theoretically, someone who loved the full run still thinks highly of the smaller run, and vice versa, even if it's not exactly what they would have voted for. It goes to whoever ranked either one the highest. Since their points count towards the run's ranking the most, they are seen as a majority shareholder. I could compute an aggregate instead, but that is A LOT of additional work. Yes. No. It's messier than that. If The Avengers #1-300 vote ranks higher, it also absorbs all other Avengers run nominations that occur within that range. SO we'll have some folks saying "I definitely don't see this all as one saga, and I hate such and such stretch, but I'm glad to see some great stories being represented so high on the list all the same." Best way I can figure to please everyone. While, in an ideal world that might be the best way to go, that's just too much tabulating. It's not a perfect system, but I think it is a fair one. There's also the question of what happens if say Chris voted for Avengers 1-300, someone else votes for the Mansion Siege and someone else votes for the Korvac Saga. Which of those other 2 votes does the 1-300 get absorbed into? Or does it count as 2 votes and go to both. -M I think it would go just to whichever of those other ones was ranked higher. but if it's the other way around, and Chris's is ranked higher - and all three have the same number of votes - then Chris's would absorb both of them. If I am reading the rule right! Correct  Oh, absolutely. I take no offence to your wanting to understand the rules of the event you've put so much work into. It's only fair, and it's why we have this thread. I think it would go just to whichever of those other ones was ranked higher. but if it's the other way around, and Chris's is ranked higher - and all three have the same number of votes - then Chris's would absorb both of them. If I am reading the rule right! By the way, none of this is in any way a criticism of the rules. I'm totally fine with the rules as they are, just seeking some clarity since these questions occurred to me this morning. My only concern is this...last time my vote for The Death of Thanos (Avengers Ann. 7/MTIO Annual 2) got folded in with The larger Thanos saga, which I get why it was done, but if I had known I was voting for the whole saga and not just those 2 issues, my ranking for it would have been significantly lower as there are parts of that larger saga I don't like as much and don't think stand up as well and make it a weaker overall story than just those 2 issues, and that would have affected the overall ranking of the the Saga because it likely moved it out of my top 10 and possibly out of my top 20. I vote for what I vote for, I am not voting for related or similar issues and if I were taking those similar/related issues into account it will likely affect how I rank what I want to vote for overall, and that affects the ranking of all the sagas because a few points can make a huge difference in the tallying. So I get why it's done for convenience sake, and I am not advocating a change, but it does affect the overall outcome oft he poll in many instances when people's votes are counted towards something they didn't actually vote for. -M You're correct, and this is a valid flaw in the system. I just don't see a better way around it. And, in the case of the Thanos Saga, I don't think there are two people in the entire world wide web who agree on exactly which issues to include and which issues not to include. It was such a mess last time around, and it will be again. Man, that's a lot of math for shaxper to figure out! I...am not looking forward to it. This was an absolute nightmare to compute last time and (though I'm very glad this is the case!) we have far more participants and nominations this time around. And I do note when some of the votes were for a significantly larger or smaller arc than what the final entry says. Hope this helps! Savvy thinking, folks. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 14:58:59 GMT -5
Like I said, I understand why it's like that, and appreciate the effort that goes into tallying the votes and compiling the results, and anything that makes that even a tad easier is cool with me. But understanding how it works better this time around affected how I approached my choices-pretty much any saga that could be absorbed into a larger whole saga was eliminated from consideration for the top 10 unless I rated the larger whole on equal footing with the part I selected or I had not read part of the larger whole but wanted to single out what I had read (as with Valerian). The sole exception for me was Ditko's Dr. Strange, which could be lumped with all of Dr. Strange or all of Strange Tales but it was unlikely and the series stands high enough in my estimation that it needed to be included. Several sagas that were in my list previously were not included this time on that basis. They may still appear in the honorable mentions but many not until after the 20th spot where their inclusion will not have a major affect on rankings with the point system in place.
-M
|
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 8, 2017 15:55:34 GMT -5
I must confess I'm not sure I feel about how this is turning out. It feels quite all over the place, with best vs nostalgia, self contained stories, full runs, ongoing runs, story arcs, the honorable mentions bonus points... I just feel it got out of hand, but hey, c'est la vie |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 16:19:22 GMT -5
I must confess I'm not sure I feel about how this is turning out. It feels quite all over the place, with best vs nostalgia, self contained stories, full runs, ongoing runs, story arcs, the honorable mentions bonus points... I just feel it got out of hand, but hey, c'est la vie Eh it's not a best of list it's the top 100 according to the votes of the membership of the site, each of whom is going to have their own criteria. If it were a best of list, my votes might be different, if it were purely favorites, my list might be different, but I went with a these are the sagas I think you should read criteria with an additional caveat that they had to have a single vision behind them (either editorial, authorial or artistic) and should be able to stand up on their own if you read nothing else by that creator or form that series. The classic component requiring material to be 10 years old also factored a bit in shaping my list. But that's my list. I'm different than anyone else here and I don't speak for anyone else here. Others choose their top 10 based on how they want to. The net result is a list of what the membership here decides are the top 10 by the way they rank these books. It doesn't represent the best of comics, it represents what the folks here chose in our own peculiar manner. No more. No less. Is it biased or skewed? Sure, but every list is, especially those by folks claiming to objectively pick the best of something because they fail to acknowledge their bias in trying to be objective. It is what it is and it plays out how it plays out. It is no more and no less than that. -M |
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958
|
Post by Crimebuster on Aug 8, 2017 16:39:26 GMT -5
That's the great thing about the word "top." It means something a little different to everyone. For me, it's kind of a combination of best and favorite. There are great stories that leave me kind of cold, and stories that are favorites of mine that I recognize as being objectively bad. But top, for me, has to combine the two. It can't just be good or enjoyable, it needs to be both.
That's just me, though. Everyone's free to come up with their own definition of top. And the more people who participate, the more representative the list will be. As it is, I think it's going to be a pretty good representation of the flavor of the boards!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 16:59:58 GMT -5
I must confess I'm not sure I feel about how this is turning out. It feels quite all over the place, with best vs nostalgia, self contained stories, full runs, ongoing runs, story arcs, the honorable mentions bonus points... I just feel it got out of hand, but hey, c'est la vie The best part of it is that it is informal. That way you can read what others pick/recommend. If it were more formal I think many of us would pick more similar stuff. I know I liked being able to pick different stuff for my list. |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 8, 2017 19:45:09 GMT -5
That's the great thing about the word "top." It means something a little different to everyone. For me, it's kind of a combination of best and favorite. There are great stories that leave me kind of cold, and stories that are favorites of mine that I recognize as being objectively bad. But top, for me, has to combine the two. It can't just be good or enjoyable, it needs to be both. That's just me, though. Everyone's free to come up with their own definition of top. And the more people who participate, the more representative the list will be. As it is, I think it's going to be a pretty good representation of the flavor of the boards! I suspect otherwise. I think it will end up looking as the same usual list, with a lot of nostalgia which is for me problematic as if I'm honest with myself, I can't recommend the stuf I' mostly nostalgic about to a stranger, as it's bound to be an underwhelming experience for him or her. Plus, all those whole decade long runs on a title (as if Claremont had any idea where he was going when he started), I don't know, I just expected something very different with this topic. I thought the "Saga" format would allow us to showcase more personnal choices instead of the same old sacred cows. But again, that's me |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 19:49:59 GMT -5
That's the great thing about the word "top." It means something a little different to everyone. For me, it's kind of a combination of best and favorite. There are great stories that leave me kind of cold, and stories that are favorites of mine that I recognize as being objectively bad. But top, for me, has to combine the two. It can't just be good or enjoyable, it needs to be both. That's just me, though. Everyone's free to come up with their own definition of top. And the more people who participate, the more representative the list will be. As it is, I think it's going to be a pretty good representation of the flavor of the boards! I suspect otherwise. I think it will end up looking as the same usual list, with a lot of nostalgia which is for me problematic as if I'm honest with myself, I can't recommend the stuf I' mostly nostalgic about to a stranger, as it's bound to be an underwhelming experience for him or her. Plus, all those whole decade long runs on a title (as if Claremont had any idea where he was going when he started), I don't know, I just expected something very different with this topic. I thought the "Saga" format would allow us to showcase more personnal choices instead of the same old sacred cows. But again, that's me For a lot of people here, those sacred cows are personal choices for them because it is their comic experience. Not that this makes it better or worse, but it's what they love about comics and they have deeply personal connections to it, nostalgic or otherwise. I like some of that stuff but my tastes run in other directions too, but I respect the choices here make even when I disagree or dislike the material because it is personal choices for them. They're not choosing things because everyone else likes them or it's waht expected to be chosen, they are choosing them because they like them. -M |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 8, 2017 19:57:00 GMT -5
I suspect otherwise. I think it will end up looking as the same usual list, with a lot of nostalgia which is for me problematic as if I'm honest with myself, I can't recommend the stuf I' mostly nostalgic about to a stranger, as it's bound to be an underwhelming experience for him or her. Plus, all those whole decade long runs on a title (as if Claremont had any idea where he was going when he started), I don't know, I just expected something very different with this topic. I thought the "Saga" format would allow us to showcase more personnal choices instead of the same old sacred cows. But again, that's me For a lot of people here, those sacred cows are personal choices for them because it is their comic experience. Not that this makes it better or worse, but it's what they love about comics and they have deeply personal connections to it, nostalgic or otherwise. I like some of that stuff but my tastes run in other directions too, but I respect the choices here make even when I disagree or dislike the material because it is personal choices for them. They're not choosing things because everyone else likes them or it's waht expected to be chosen, they are choosing them because they like them. -M Did I say otherwise? I respect them as well, I just happen to find them off topic in that specific case. I just imagined with such a title this would be a more surprising topic, and I find myself already aware of every single entry, which I honestly didn't expect, my bad. If it had been called "my favorite runs/stories", I would have had completely different expectations, that's all. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 8, 2017 20:51:03 GMT -5
For a lot of people here, those sacred cows are personal choices for them because it is their comic experience. Not that this makes it better or worse, but it's what they love about comics and they have deeply personal connections to it, nostalgic or otherwise. I like some of that stuff but my tastes run in other directions too, but I respect the choices here make even when I disagree or dislike the material because it is personal choices for them. They're not choosing things because everyone else likes them or it's waht expected to be chosen, they are choosing them because they like them. -M Did I say otherwise? I respect them as well, I just happen to find them off topic in that specific case. I just imagined with such a title this would be a more surprising topic, and I find myself already aware of every single entry, which I honestly didn't expect, my bad. If it had been called "my favorite runs/stories", I would have had completely different expectations, that's all. If you know of a community with a more diverse, well-rounded series of tastes in classic comics, please pass me the link. While I'm familiar with most works mentioned thus far, it's because I've made it my business to know great works over the years. If our top ten was largely unfamiliar to me, I'd strongly suspect something had gone wrong. I for one am enjoying every moment of this event. If you're not, why not move on instead of repeatedly nay-saying it to anyone who will listen? |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 8, 2017 21:17:45 GMT -5
Did I say otherwise? I respect them as well, I just happen to find them off topic in that specific case. I just imagined with such a title this would be a more surprising topic, and I find myself already aware of every single entry, which I honestly didn't expect, my bad. If it had been called "my favorite runs/stories", I would have had completely different expectations, that's all. If you know of a community with a more diverse, well-rounded series of tastes in classic comics, please pass me the link. While I'm familiar with most works mentioned thus far, it's because I've made it my business to know great works over the years. If our top ten was largely unfamiliar to me, I'd strongly suspect something had gone wrong. I for one am enjoying every moment of this event. If you're not, why not move on instead of repeatedly nay-saying it to anyone who will listen? The top ten might be unfamiliar to me , but it might make me seek out those stories that I've never read. Because of the last Saga survey, I ended up buying New Frontier, Cerebus and Usagi Yojimbo, which I never read one page of prior to then. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 8, 2017 21:20:57 GMT -5
The top ten might be unfamiliar to me , but it might make me seek out those stories that I've never read. Because of the last Saga survey, I ended up buying New Frontier, Cerebus and Usagi Yojimbo, which I never read one page of prior to then. Most of my current To Read list is still made up of stuff I saw listed in 2014. No, there should be works on the list you haven't read that you now feel enticed to seek out, but if the list is made up almost entirely of obscure stuff you've never even heard of before, I'd say something went wrong. And if you've already read everything on this list, good for you. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 8, 2017 21:34:14 GMT -5
Ha, you know by now that I have a thing against animal characters. It was a stretch for me to get a book about an aardvark...
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 8, 2017 21:35:14 GMT -5
Ha, you know by now that I have a thing against animal characters. It was a stretch for me to get a book about an aardvark... ...And yet you liked Usagi Yojimbo. 1 out of 2 ain't bad By the way, loving the irony that the example I used to answer your questions this morning ended up being your selection for today. |
|
