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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 3, 2017 20:02:59 GMT -5
And yeah, I'm a StraightWhiteDude myself. I'm just not one that thinks that every book and character on the shelves has to be aimed specifically at me, and that anything else is pandering. Because revolving your entire business model around a single demographic sure isn't pandering. t They shouldn't be pandering! Why aren't they pandering to Meeeeee!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 20:09:23 GMT -5
I'd make it so there were a bunch of already popular characters that could be made more appealing to people other than StraightWhiteDudes, then buy some sturdy earplugs to drown out the pissing and moaning about 'pandering' and 'SJWs'. I think that won't matter if they tell good stories...THATS the key. Doesn't matter if they tell good stories if they don't get the books into the hands of customers to read them. Getting them into the hands of customers is the key. A good story does nothing if no one reads it. Not sure what it's like in your area, but in our town that has a lot of lower income families, there's lots of people using the library as a place to get wifi, have access to computers, attending kids events like readalongs, crafts, movie showings, video game nights etc, all of which tie into pushing the content they have available to borrow geared towards those audiences. Now that may not be the case in more affluent areas where all that stuff is available to kids without leaving their house, but in these parts, the libraries get a lot of use for things like that and bring a lot of people through the doors because of it. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 3, 2017 21:31:06 GMT -5
I live in a mid side city (about 50,000) and we go to the library at least twice a week.... there's rarely more than a dozen others there if it's not an event of some sort, and I often recognize most of them. Sure, kid event lure up to 20-25 kids, but its the SAME 20-25 kids every time, from the same families.
I don't think it's particularly affluent here (quite the opposite), but I think people are much more likely to use their neighbors wi-fi, or hang out at Dunkin/Panera/Starbucks than go to the library.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 4, 2017 2:59:08 GMT -5
And yeah, I'm a StraightWhiteDude myself. I'm just not one that thinks that every book and character on the shelves has to be aimed specifically at me, and that anything else is pandering. Because revolving your entire business model around a single demographic sure isn't pandering. then we might become pals. i can't stand 'single demographic'. see below
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 4, 2017 2:59:57 GMT -5
At several points in my career, I’d done non anglo non Christian non Femaale characters, co-created for a ‘significant company.’ As in a publisher providing good - to - great page rates and an excellent royalty program, including profit participation for creating a character under certain [fair] conditions.
Some characters ‘back then’ were a ‘risk’. They did not fit ‘the consumer demographic’. Much of what I did risked my career, my rent, my food money. I had skin in the game, I had the biggest bull to be gored.
(bleeding cool is denied permission to use any of this in case they see it as lurkers here, btw, just as HeatWave is denied such rights, as I am non partisan.)
The ironies, politically-in-comics, between then and now, astound me (‘ ironies’ used properly, not ala the Hipster—dumb-arse misuse of the word).
I could be blacklisted for using my time/talent to champion non cis/white/hetero/anglo/male characters, and suffered a ‘Chuck Dixon verboten by Axel Alonso’ more than once. “Soft’- blacklisted for sticking up for female editors/Assistant editors (as they were titled then, vs. ‘Associate’ editors as they are now). Supporting by word, deed and art, African American creators, Female creators, and Queer creators.
Queer creators was the ‘big one’. I’d been tapped-on-tbhe-shoulder to do a Batman Project BEFORE the idiotic ‘collector-vs-reader’ comics-economic-crash of the 90’s. The royalties this would have garnered during that sales-period of Bats would mean I could have bought a HOUSE. Yet, sadly…
During a private ‘company get together’ (I won’t say ‘which’ company; it was one of the big 4), the person I related to most, and whose art I liked most, was a Queer Person, who seemed very sad, had been ‘sectioned off’, shunned. No-one was speaking to them, no-one complimenting them on their excellent work, work-ethic, the money they’d brought in for the company. Appalling. Disgusting.
And the person whom had ‘pink-ceilinged’ this creator was one of the head honcho’s in the room, at this get-together.
Sitting in clear-earshot of us. So, I made sure to sincerely compliment this fellow creator, be openly yet only platonically affectionate towards this fellow creator, in a Huck Finn to Tom Sawyer manner. Or, as we’d ‘learn later’, a Matt Smith Doctor Who to Captain Harkness manner. Or a non cis male to a non cis female manner, as we’d say today.
DID NOT GO OVER WELL.
Basically, a full-on blacklist, from folks whom no no longer ‘call the shots’ in comics ‘today’. If twitter and tumblr etc. had been extant/popular THEN, I’d have had no problem. But they weren’t extant, so all my skin in the game was flayed off, my bull was not only gored but murdered, and all cows in my paddock slaughtered and left to rot.
I still ‘came back’ though, after being blacklisted for that, and the racial thing, and the Matriarchal-Feminist thing. Because I had artistic WORK ETHIC. In fact I later did - via standing up for my principles YET backing that up with art-grunt work ethic - the best ‘score’ of my comics career. Because a ‘top five’ writer gave a ##@!!!, and saw what I’d been doing (not ‘tried to do’) for a long, long time. And scored me 2 gigs. Which made money for ‘The Man’.
this meant, for any retailer reading this thread, i made money for YOU. including the times when i’d be asked to do a signing-session and tell people asking for a sketch, yet buying nothing from the shop-in-question, ‘buy $5 worth of stuff from the shop, show me the receipt, and I’ll give you the sketch for 50% off. If you buy $15 worth of stuff, the sketch is free’.
that worked. every time.
Ironically, considering what i’ve been paid to do after being a ‘proto-sjw’ and after being ’soft-blacklisted’ several times for supporting non anglo-hetero-male stuff and non anglo-hetero-male creators/editors/staff, i made made $ for myself off sales via purchases from Slam Bradley and Spike-X, most likely.
So now we live in the tweety-twitter-twatter age, but retailers can still make use of what i’ve said above in a PRAGMATIC fashion.
It can be done in a new, ‘digital-native respecting the potential new/young consumer’ demographic.
ASSUMING retailers are willing to be as flexible as publishers and creators have been demanded to be since twitter decided it’s blah-blah mattered more than sales. And work with creators in that regard, which hasn’t really been the case up til now, from creators’ points of view. we can discuss that later, below.
and this thread was/is about sales, new sales, new customers, not ‘blah blah’. people whom PAY for comics don’t give a #@@!!! about ‘blah blah’.
and in closing, this thread is about economics, not self-appointed quasi-political-pundrity. the later has seemed to be proven to LOWER sales and scare off people under the age of 25.
as one of my /godmothers always said, after escaping one of the worst concentration camps to become one ofe the best/successful Hungarian Jewish Survivor Manhattan lawyers in the past 50 years,
‘Be careful of the question you ask, because you never have a say over the context of the answer. merely smile honestly if anyone sincerely answers, as that is a gift.’.
my Asian godmothers were MORE direct.
and none of them tolerated becoming, as said by non anglo-hetero’s ‘today’, a ‘purse-puppy’.
consider THEIR side of the street, instead of merely ‘milk-shaking’ a tweet pretending-to.
i can relate to that being a half-crip (and we’ll discuss that later, too)
the new customers will respect this, and pony-up the purchase $$.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 4, 2017 3:25:59 GMT -5
a bit more.
to retailers, how much has bleeding cool ever helped your 'bottom' line, vs Mike Baron?
whom has been, apparently, 'soft-blacklisted' alongside C. Dixon. I've not met mr. Dixon so i won't speak of him. I will speak of mr. Baron, whom has received much love on this site, because i've hung out with him (including at my home at one time), at cons, and more, in person and by phone, and as a sufferer of racist ##@!!, sexist !#$Z$!! etc., i can tell you it is unfair, stupid, short-sighted etc., that he has been sidelined by the uindustry after making SO much $$ for the industry, for retailers and has so many non male, non 'haytah' fans across the gobe.
he (when we spoke) was truly egalitarian, truly anti racist, et al. his MANNER of speaking was misinterpreted as his 'content'. Mike began as a journo, in the 'tell it like it is' days.
he's been RACHETED.
And many non anglo's have souht out his work and love his work, and want non anglo characters to have the guts of the Badger, Nexus, Judah Maccabee, etc. ALL the characters put skin in the game to combat 'ism's. racism, queer-hate-ism, age-ism, and in nexus, species-ism.
i don't see many retailers backing him up on this, despite makking money on selling his ##@!!! product.
BE CONSISTANT. YOUNG potential fans were the ones whom coined the term 'authenticity-movement'.
if you retailers fail to be as authentic as Mike B., you have no right to bitch about sales or 'soft-sell' the question of this thread as something it's not, if you don't openly state you appreciate Mike re what he did to pen-things-up in the 80s to 1993 or so.
walk the walk while takling the talk.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 4, 2017 4:12:10 GMT -5
And yeah, I'm a StraightWhiteDude myself. I'm just not one that thinks that every book and character on the shelves has to be aimed specifically at me, and that anything else is pandering. Because revolving your entire business model around a single demographic sure isn't pandering. i respect this very much. your honesty is greatly appreciated, and when applied in a pragmatic manner, serves to improve comicsin general. and as a credit to you, from your sharing of your purchases, in other threads, you back up your politics with 'hard dollars'.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 4, 2017 8:40:11 GMT -5
btw, dear retailers:
if the 'new' customers you wish to gain and cultivate only want belgian chocolate truffles, and all you have in your store is @$#!!y carob slices, they ain't gonna buy that carob.
they came for CHOCOLATE. 80% cacao DARK chocolate, NEVER hippie-arse carob.
no matter how you offer the carob, sing the praises of the carob, offer the carob for free alongside a movie ticket, NOBODY GIVES A @#@!! ABOUT CAROB.
You can't improve sales or make new sales off of 'carob-arse-pseudo-comics'.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 6, 2017 8:49:17 GMT -5
here's a thought upon Reaching new fans and expanding sales: retailors could back Mike Baron up, when it's hard, not 'easy'. his storytelling is beloved by all generations. but we're not gonna talk about THAT, are we?
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 6, 2017 9:31:02 GMT -5
1.) give up up on the floppy/monthly size/format. the battle is lost. manga won. forget hail hydra, hail manga-size, which fits in a purse, or a cargo-shorts sized pocket. 2.) ditch the talking-heads ‘wahhhhhhh, muh feeeeelings’ soap opera garbage. young folks still love Fast and the Furiously-braindead, they couldn’t give a #@@$@@!! about wannabe ‘death of a Salesman’ or The Cherry Orchard. put actual movement, DRAWN (not traced and digitally/badly coloured) MOVEMENT, KINETIC movement, back into comics. 3.) can/ditch the twitter garbage from all sides. it makes money for twit-er, it does not generate new purchases from new/young potential customers. 4.) if you wanna make a career outta milkshakes, or slagging milkshakes, open a baskin-robbins franchise. ice cream ain’t comics. 5.) get product drawn by people whom are competitive, not just another set of tumblr-monkeys and deviant-art.net dilettantes, the hiring of which have corresponded with dropping sales; the drops have naught to do with pandering or any ideology, As i've stated in a previous post. comics are/always will be economic goods bought by dint of their visual appeal. most young folks don't give a #@@!!! about garbage with no effort 'created' in the name of #Z$!! seen at 'conceptual or fine art' galleries, so they ain't gonna buy pieces of printed paper which look the way yoko ono's 'singing' sounds. 1) Floppies are indeed a lost battle, but I'm not sure it's about the pocket format, as over here in Europe, regular european format stil fares very well in the global audiences. But indeed, with the amount of available entertainment within reach of young audiences, it is ludicrous to think anyone but old fans with habits would ever pay 4$ for 22 pages, barely a chapter of a story. 32 pages is the bare minimum. Which brings me to your 5) 5) I strongly disagree with that : when I got into comics in my teens, story was the only reason I got interested in US comics. All the early books I bought and loved, I can honestly say I struggled with the art, smoe I even found ugly. But the story was competitive enough to make me favor it instead of the ones in other mediums, and I found myself not alone at that time (golden age of Vertigo). So these, days, Marvel and DC think that great artists (Jae Lee, Ribic, Opena, Yu, etc) can justify 4 or 5$ for 20-22 pages. No it doesn't! Not in the floppy format, and certainly not for kids. I mean, ifthe comic book market lived in a vaccum, then it certainly would, but it doesn't. The fact that one of the most popular artist amongst youth in the comic world used to be Rob Liefield shows you that good art or bad art has nothing to do with sustainability of the medium : it's a combo of story, price, and now format. 2) When did it ever leave? There's always good and bad artists, you just seem to be ranting about bad ones there, but who wouldn't If you aim to get new young readers in, Scott Pilgrim proves you right on that point plus the first one. 3) Debatable. I'm pretty sure that Social media will be crucial in bringing young readers in, because that is where they are.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 6, 2017 9:40:55 GMT -5
1.) give up up on the floppy/monthly size/format. the battle is lost. manga won. forget hail hydra, hail manga-size, which fits in a purse, or a cargo-shorts sized pocket. 2.) ditch the talking-heads ‘wahhhhhhh, muh feeeeelings’ soap opera garbage. young folks still love Fast and the Furiously-braindead, they couldn’t give a #@@$@@!! about wannabe ‘death of a Salesman’ or The Cherry Orchard. put actual movement, DRAWN (not traced and digitally/badly coloured) MOVEMENT, KINETIC movement, back into comics. 3.) can/ditch the twitter garbage from all sides. it makes money for twit-er, it does not generate new purchases from new/young potential customers. 4.) if you wanna make a career outta milkshakes, or slagging milkshakes, open a baskin-robbins franchise. ice cream ain’t comics. 5.) get product drawn by people whom are competitive, not just another set of tumblr-monkeys and deviant-art.net dilettantes, the hiring of which have corresponded with dropping sales; the drops have naught to do with pandering or any ideology, As i've stated in a previous post. comics are/always will be economic goods bought by dint of their visual appeal. most young folks don't give a #@@!!! about garbage with no effort 'created' in the name of #Z$!! seen at 'conceptual or fine art' galleries, so they ain't gonna buy pieces of printed paper which look the way yoko ono's 'singing' sounds. 1) Floppies are indeed a lost battle, but I'm not sure it's about the pocket format, as over here in Europe, regular european format stil fares very well in the global audiences. But indeed, with the amount of available entertainment within reach of young audiences, it is ludicrous to think anyone but old fans with habits would ever pay 4$ for 22 pages, barely a chapter of a story. 32 pages is the bare minimum. Which brings me to your 5) 5) I strongly disagree with that : when I got into comics in my teens, story was the only reason I got interested in US comics. All the early books I bought and loved, I can honestly say I struggled with the art, smoe I even found ugly. But the story was competitive enough to make me favor it instead of the ones in other mediums, and I found myself not alone at that time (golden age of Vertigo). So these, days, Marvel and DC think that great artists (Jae Lee, Ribic, Opena, Yu, etc) can justify 4 or 5$ for 20-22 pages. No it doesn't! Not in the floppy format, and certainly not for kids. I mean, ifthe comic book market lived in a vaccum, then it certainly would, but it doesn't. The fact that one of the most popular artist amongst youth in the comic world used to be Rob Liefield shows you that good art or bad art has nothing to do with sustainability of the medium : it's a combo of story, price, and now format. 2) When did it ever leave? There's always good and bad artists, you just seem to be ranting about bad ones there, but who wouldn't If you aim to get new young readers in, Scott Pilgrim proves you right on that point plus the first one. 3) Debatable. I'm pretty sure that Social media will be crucial in bringing young readers in, because that is where they are. i'll go into reply to all your counterpoints later (and thank you for them!), but my initial response, emotionally and as a freelancer of 'the same vintage as yourself', is: 'yeah, but we're old'. so we must put our feelings aside and look at what the young want. millenials want product better than they can make themselves. 'smashed avocado sandwiches' at cafes. over-priced lattes, etc. comics are no different. also, bear in mind that with nn USA markets, i utterly agree with you, but this site's members are over 90% usa based, so my comments above pertained to the yank-market, specifically, as i felt that the OP's question pertained to the yank-market, specifically. usa creators should really look at euro markets though, when moon girl is selling under 9,000 in the usa.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 6, 2017 9:47:34 GMT -5
here's a thought upon Reaching new fans and expanding sales: retailors could back Mike Baron up, when it's hard, not 'easy'. his storytelling is beloved by all generations. But is he? More seriously, I think that the industry should favor cartoonists as well, at least if it truly wants to get new reader in. Think about it : everytime you want to successfuly get someone interested in comics from a young age, you give them, Jeff Smith, Will Eisner, Carl Barks, Tezuka, Kyle Baker, Hergé, now maybe Paul Pope or Darwyn Cooke. Forget about the superhero movies and their supposed crossover appeal : young readers want honest and strong voices, not something you get in superhero work for hire (wit the odd exception of Scott McCloud and Mark Millar Superman Adventures and a handfull other books barely promoted by the big two even back then). I read comics because it witheld stuff I couldn't find elsewhere (still can't find on TV or on the silver screen anything that ressembles Wrightson's Swamp Thing, Gaiman's Sandman, Jeff Smith's epic and funny Bone, or Delano's Hellblazer (the TV show was an abject failure, so why do you want to make the comic closer to it than the original run?!)), so bring it!
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 6, 2017 9:50:39 GMT -5
yes, mike's tales are beloved that way; even millenials track his stuff down on he other stuff, i grok you, but again, what you say applies if we're looking globally, not usa-domestically.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Aug 6, 2017 10:13:54 GMT -5
yes, mike's tales are beloved that way; even millenials track his stuff down on he other stuff, i grok you, but again, what you say applies if we're looking globally, not usa-domestically. I'm pretty sure my point about about cartoonists stands even in the US, but you might be right.
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Post by LovesGilKane on Aug 7, 2017 3:01:49 GMT -5
btw, any retailors here who can show me proof of backing up Baron? after making $$ from his work?
if the answer is 'no', this thread should be canned. full stop. walk-the-walk.
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