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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 23:13:41 GMT -5
While I do agree with much of what you say, I don't think comparing Asterix to Marvel and DC is unfair... Asterix is one single book, that comes out once every year or two (sometimes more)...even at $25 a pop (I have no idea what the actual price is), that's $125 million. call it every 2 years (which is a bit generous... this is the 7th book to be released since 2000) that's 60-65m per year... less than 2 months of diamond sales. Perhaps a better question is could Marvel and DC skip the 40-50 monthly titles, just do events.. maybe in OGNs, maybe not, and make just as much? Perhaps that niche market will spend it's 40-50m a month no matter what, so giving so much choice is just increasing costs needlessly. Just something that popped into my brain.... after all back in the day when sales were so much higher, there were alot few books, too. Perhaps printing 1 million copies each of 5 titles instead of 50k each of 50 titles would make more sense? Sure, fans would be in shock for a bit, but who cares if they still spend the money. And if there were only 5 marvel titles a month, would people be more likely to buy them all, just because they can? I am sure Asterix is not the only title the publisher puts out, and I am also sure the other volumes of Asterix are evergreen sellers bringing in revenue as well, so a new Asterix also means a spike in sales to other Asterix volumes, so it's not one new volume of Asterix vs. the entire Marvel & DC output in determining revenue. But then let's open the can of worms of creator compensation. The better Asterix sells, the more the creators get. They get an advance and a royalty, the way most book publishers compensate creators, but not comics, who get page rates and possibly royalties if and only if sales reach a certain level for creator participation. Creators have to be working on a monthly book to make ends meet because there is no income without page rates. Asterix creators (and others compensated on that model) get advances for upcoming books and a continual stream of royalties for past volumes they created that continue to sell so they can afford to take their time and create a single volume per year without having to go broke and give up their income. The way I see it, if comics are going to change, the way creators are cmpensated has to be one of the major changes to allow any new format or distribution model to be able to succeed. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 10, 2017 8:34:20 GMT -5
Right, but they had to start at some point, right? Perhaps if creators lowered their output, what they do put out would be better, and sell more, and result in more money overall.. especially for the art. Image is almost half down that road already... with the scheduled breaks between story lines to let the trades be there.
Dargaud, Asterix's publisher, has put out 100ish books so far this year, so 10 a month. That includes re-issuing old books. Clearly compensation works in some way for them, so there much be a system that works. It can't be only royalties/advances, because new properties don't get those.
Or they could try the Manga model... put on giant, cheap magazines with 10 stories each in them instead of single comics, then focus on trades. There certainly are other ways that are proven to work, for whatever reason, Marvel and DC are just not choosing them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 9:31:18 GMT -5
Right, but they had to start at some point, right? Perhaps if creators lowered their output, what they do put out would be better, and sell more, and result in more money overall.. especially for the art. Image is almost half down that road already... with the scheduled breaks between story lines to let the trades be there. Dargaud, Asterix's publisher, has put out 100ish books so far this year, so 10 a month. That includes re-issuing old books. Clearly compensation works in some way for them, so there much be a system that works. It can't be only royalties/advances, because new properties don't get those. Or they could try the Manga model... put on giant, cheap magazines with 10 stories each in them instead of single comics, then focus on trades. There certainly are other ways that are proven to work, for whatever reason, Marvel and DC are just not choosing them. When you work in a piecework system (which is what page rates are) who is willing to to lower output since it results in lower pay? The pay rate for comics isn't good and it's tough enough to make ends meet when you can crank out pages, so unless you are going to change compensation models for creators (which is unlikely since it works in Marvel & DC's favor right now), creators will have to maintain their level of output to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. If there is going to be a change in system, it needs ot be a fundamental change of the entire system, not just the output of the system. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 10, 2017 10:03:59 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They need to change the whole thing. Pay guys on sales like books instead of page rates... put them on salary.. something.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 10:09:56 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They need to change the whole thing. Pay guys on sales like books instead of page rates... put them on salary.. something. It's part of the reason why so many Image books go on hiatus. They don't even pay page rates, it's all back and deals, which can pay more, but writers can fill in the gaps with other work (even work for hire in a lot of cases), but artists, whose production rate is much slower than writers, cannot usually take on other gigs to pay the bills while working on an Image book. A lot of writers take it upon themselves to give the artists page rates int he interim, but not all can afford that. They also have to pay the other creatives (inkers, editors, letterers, colorists) out of pocket to produce the books, but again, the money only comes in on the back end. If they went to trade only, the wait on the back end would be even longer. I am not sure if I have any viable answers (I'm pretty sure I don't), but I am pretty sure the current model's window of viability is closing in many ways and things are not going to get better until changes are made. Things could linger and limp along surviving for a while for sure, but there are not going to get better. -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 21:25:44 GMT -5
So I had a thought while finishing rereading Reinventing Comics by Scott McCloud and after going through some old Choose Your Own Adventure Books that I include din the rpg stuff I sold off last weekend-what is there were a modern digital comic equivalent of the choose your own adventure books featuring characters like Spidey or Batman aimed at kids who want a more interactive experience. Not quite a video game, still a comic reading experience, but the app or comic pulls up the panels the move the story in the direction it goes based on the reader's choices. If Batman decides to follow clue A, the story goes to those panels, clue B, different panels instead, chooses to call in Nightwing for help it goes to a different outcome etc.
There is a cost to produce additional pages, but it creates the possibility of multiple reads and different outcomes making it an entertainment experience that lasts longer than 10 minutes like a standard comic does. It would be a way to build comic literacy in younger readers, offer an interactive experience using the characters, making it a different product than a traditional comic yet still a comic reading (and comic buying) experience. Now these wouldn't be instead of traditional comics, but in addition to. A new way to reach out to audiences to expose them to comics and get them reading comics even if they normally wouldn't.
Not sure it would work, not sure of the cost of development, not sure if anyone besides me thinks it might be a good idea, but it was a thought of an area that comics could explore to find new audiences.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 10, 2017 22:16:34 GMT -5
I think it would have to be more animated sort of thing, but maybe if the cost of production could make them reasonable.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 22:18:22 GMT -5
I think it would have to be more animated sort of thing, but maybe if the cost of production could make them reasonable. Animating it negates the teaching comics literacy aspect and introducing non-comics fans to reading comics fans though, which is the point of the outreach. If you are going to animate and add sound, it's not comics, it's a cartoon really or a film. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 10, 2017 23:23:25 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe. I'm picturing a bit of a hybrid, where you read a couple comic pages, make a choice, then something happens... maybe a mini game, maybe just a 'cut scene', then you get to the next couple pages of story.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 12, 2017 15:34:16 GMT -5
You're describing the interactive comic books Tom Hanks' Josh proposes in "Big."
Cei-U! Penny Marshall: ahead of the curve!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 12, 2017 21:41:20 GMT -5
You're describing the interactive comic books Tom Hanks' Josh proposes in "Big." Cei-U! Penny Marshall: ahead of the curve! Really? Neat! I surprised no one has tried it, then... that was a pretty popular movie (though not one I've seen)... maybe I should!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 23:31:46 GMT -5
A case study, Jim Zub's Wayward series from ImageIn his blog, Jim Zub analyzes sales data and things that have lead to the growth of readership for the book despite declining single issue sales. It's only 1 book and Jim Zub does emphasize the caveat that you shouldn't take this to be reflective of the industry as a whole, but it does offer some insight how books can grow despite not selling well in the direct market as a single issue floppy. -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2017 0:30:29 GMT -5
Some new numbers to look at, form ICv2's Presentation at NYCC here. Bleeding Cool has an article on it hereLots of demographics, the big one, 67% of all comic buyers are male, but a full third now are female, so much for the girls don't buy comics garbage we hear all the time. However, in comic book stories that number rises to 72% of the purchases being male while only 28% are female. The second big revelation-sales in comic book shops are flat and/or shrinking depending on the type of product, but sales in the book trade are growing, and if the trend continues at the current rate book trade sales will overtake comic shop sales within 3 years i.e. more comics will be sold outside Diamond's distribution network than within it. The third big revelation, 57% of all comics are bought by 13-29 year olds, so the audience is getting younger overall. However, less than half of the comics sold in comic book shops (47%) are bought by 13-29 year olds, so comic shop audiences are older and not bringing in as much of the youth market or younger readers, which also doesn't bode well moving forward as the comic shop audience continues to age out. More demographics from the ICv2 presentation... and finally they do a demographic breakdown between super-hero purchasers and manga purchasers... Some interesting data there that should be food for thought for publishers (and creators) moving forward as they look for growth in the industry so they can increase sales and revenues from publishing. -M
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Post by drewbie on Oct 22, 2017 12:15:41 GMT -5
If publishers want to reach new fans and expand sales, they need to do two things.
The first is offer newsprint editions. Alterna Comics recently started printing their comics on newsprint, which is 1/3 the cost of the nice glossy papers used by most publishers. They pass this savings on to customers and price most of their books at $2. Some are as low as $1. One dollar. For a full size comic with all-new content. In 2017. That's almost unbelievable. This wouldn't be appropriate for every book and artist, but it would certainly increase sales of all-ages books like My Little Pony and Ninja Turtles. There's no reason those should be $4 because parents won't pay that on a regular basis. Newsprint may not offer the same color quality, but the goal is to pull in young readers who will stick with the medium and eventually graduate to content that deserves a better presentation.
The second thing they should do is emphasize licensed properties that are popular in other media. Cartoons and video game tie-ins will attract new readers who are already fans of the concept. See Dark Horse's success with the Avatar The Last Airbender books for one example. Not all of the new readers will cross-over to reading comic-original properties, but the percentage who do will be non-zero. When I was a boy, I got into comics through Archie's TMNT Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog. As a college student, I got back into them through Transformers. Licensed properties will draw in new readers. It's the retailer's job to tell the new readers that if they like this, then they should try that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 13:03:45 GMT -5
If publishers want to reach new fans and expand sales, they need to do two things. The first is offer newsprint editions. Alterna Comics recently started printing their comics on newsprint, which is 1/3 the cost of the nice glossy papers used by most publishers. They pass this savings on to customers and price most of their books at $2. Some are as low as $1. One dollar. For a full size comic with all-new content. In 2017. That's almost unbelievable. This wouldn't be appropriate for every book and artist, but it would certainly increase sales of all-ages books like My Little Pony and Ninja Turtles. There's no reason those should be $4 because parents won't pay that on a regular basis. Newsprint may not offer the same color quality, but the goal is to pull in young readers who will stick with the medium and eventually graduate to content that deserves a better presentation. The second thing they should do is emphasize licensed properties that are popular in other media. Cartoons and video game tie-ins will attract new readers who are already fans of the concept. See Dark Horse's success with the Avatar The Last Airbender books for one example. Not all of the new readers will cross-over to reading comic-original properties, but the percentage who do will be non-zero. When I was a boy, I got into comics through Archie's TMNT Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog. As a college student, I got back into them through Transformers. Licensed properties will draw in new readers. It's the retailer's job to tell the new readers that if they like this, then they should try that. I am not sure how Alterna is doing it. When were were self-publishing, were were looking to do a coloring book on "cheap" newsprint, and we found that prices for newsprint were now 2-3 times regular paper and there was only enough being made for the newspapers because no one else was ordering it so production had been scales way back. Also, most of the presses capable of handling newsprint had been dismantled except for those producing the newspapers and 90% of all printers can no longer produce newsprint because the infrastructure is no long in place to do so. We were told, if you are lucky, you can find a printer somewhere who might be able to fit ina small print run or two between newspaper printing to keep the presses going, but you will have to wait for an opening in their schedule, they won't make a slot for you because it's not worth their time, and it will cost you more than you want to charge a customer for your product to get it printed and shipped from wherever it is being printed. Obviously Alterna found a printing shop with the infrastructure and made some kind of deal that is working for them, but I don't think a large scale switch back to newsprint is possible unless someone is willing to pony up serious cash to invest in rebuilding the infrastructure for that type of printing industry. That kind of financial investment means that it would have to be recouped in the prices charged for products so there might not be the reduction is product msrp people are expecting if done on a large scale. Plus, most current comic readers have no connection with newsprint, never bought comics on newsprint, and might reject such a product seeing it as a downgrade in product quality that makes the product more unappealing. If you are looking for future growth you have to consider the desire of future customers, not past customers who are aging out of target demographics and dying off. As to your second point, only a tiny fraction of fans of properties in one media are willing to follow it into other media, and those that are are usually already fans of the second media. Prose novels of licensed products only attract fans of the property who already bu and read prose novels, they don't often attract new readers who don't buy books. The same is true of comics. Licensed properties attract comics readers who like the property, but in the current market they rarely attract readers new to comics. Plus licensed comics are less profitable because you have to pay licensing fees so you have to sell more of them to make as much revenue as a lesser selling non-licensed title, unless you skimp on talent costs, and then the product's quality isn't going to keep any new readers it might attract. I think a major issue, perhaps even an elephant in the room is the lack of comics literacy among younger potential readers. Comics literacy is a different skill set than general literacy, one that only comes form experience and interacting with comics. Our generation encountered comics in newspapers, and often had comics from a very young age, and learned how to decipher the words and images coherently. Left to right, top to bottom, how the story flowed form panel to panel, page to page. We take it for granted. Younger potential readers, i.e.e the likely source of any new customers for comics, do not encounter comics young any more. Comics strips are no longer a prominent feature as print newspapers are not a ubiquitous part of people's lives and the Sunday funnies are not appointment entertainment. Comic books are not encounters to be read unless you go looking for them. How many barber shops and doctor's offices have comics in the waiting area for kids to read like they did in our youth. Unless potential readers are exposed to comics to gain the facility needed to make reading them an enjoyable experience (i.e. comics literacy), no change to the products themselves are going to have an impact on sales or attract those readers. Webcomics and digital comics can serve the literacy training ground function the way newspaper strips did, but again they need to be in places were non-comic fans will discover them even when they are not looking for them specifically. That's the key piece of the puzzle that's missing. People aren't going to come to comics unless they want to come to comics, and that desire isn't going to spontaneously manifest itself in people unless they encounter comics in other places than destination comic shops or destination sites on the web. It's not Field of Dreams, people won't come if you build it, because they won't know about it or care about it because they don;t know or care (or even think) about comics because they never encounter them and gain the fundamentals needed to enjoy them. WE need to stop taking these things for granted and assuming life today is the same as it was when we encountered comics and people will come into it the same way we did. The world's a different place, people have different experiences now that shape them differently than we were shaped by our experiences with comics, and until we find a way to get comics into the experiences they have (and encountering comic characters in other media such as media and television has shown us over the last 17 years that it's not going to do it, mostly because watching Spider-Man is not the same as reading a comic story with Spider-Man and doesn't prepare you or give you the skill needed to be able to read a Spider-Man comic story let alone enjoy it), they are not going to come to comics whether they are on newsprint or digital, cost $10 each or are free, are serialized or offer a complete story in one go. No one is going to seek them out unless they have a reason to seek them out, not seek out the characters, not seek out properties they are familiar with, but seek out actual comics. And until you can get comics in places where the people will encounter them and discover them and see the appeal of them first hand thorough their own experience of them in whatever format or package, people are not going to become new readers of comics. So to paraphrase David Petersen, creator of Mouseguard, at this year's Ringo awards-how many people have you turned on to comics this week? This Year? This decade? It doesn't need to be super-heroes or Marvel and DC. Oh your son likes dinosaurs? Have you ever seen this (fill in name of comics) about Dinosaurs?(he suggested a book on the rivalries in the early days of paleontology whose name escapes me right now). Oh, you like samurai-have you ever seen (fill in the blank comic). Oh, you like horror, have you tried this...? Or whatever thing they like, then follow up with something like I can lend you a copy or hey the library has a copy you can check out of this for free, or I can send you a link for it form Amazon, or recommend a shop where you can get it (but the last one is probably a better second step after they read and like something than a first step) or whatever. That's how comics will get new readers in this day and age. Not formats. Not pricing. Not digital or newsprint, but people who love comics introducing comics to people who are unfamiliar with comics. And don't try to shove your favorites on them, introduce them to things they already like that happen to be in comics format. It's the personal relationship and trust of the people, not the product, that will get them to try it, but you want them to have a positive experience with what you introduce them to or they will never take another recommendation for comics from you again. Remember it's not about you, it's about them and finding something that works for them even if it doesn't work for you the same way. -M
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