Søren
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I trademarked my name two years ago. Swore I'd kill any turniphead that tried to use it
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Post by Søren on Jan 16, 2018 17:01:11 GMT -5
Maybe needs to be that its ignored completely or have them age, its the parts of both that gets it confusing, to me anyway lol You'll find examples of both. There are "Superman got old" stories like Kingdom Come published the same year as "Superman is still young" stories. It's neither necessary nor possible to fit all of the stories into a single continuity without contradiction. It's collaborative fiction with hundreds (thousands?) of authors choosing and rejecting story elements from a buffet of concepts, according to the needs of the moment. Just keep reading, and you will figure out how it all works. If you are new to comics, then get recommendations as to which old stories are worth reading, and which are not worth your time. Its the seemingly infinite timelines and universes that is putting me off getting into DC or Marvel stuff. I don't know how the hell anyone new to the stories is meant to know what is going on with who or what is 'correct'. What wrong with liner times? People age. I accept superheroes might age slower, or if setting is futuristic tech might help that but to keep relaunching a character seems silly. I used to feel this way too, there is a large part of me that wants all that continuity and realism, "this happened in Cap 113 and I want it to still be true" kind of rubbish. However when I think of reading comics as a kid, there were plenty of 2nd or 3rd part stories I picked up. All it ever did was make me determined to get the earlier books. I "got" the story, I enjoyed what was in front of me, I moved on. Simple. Look at cartoons, I was watching Brave and Bold this morning. Bats gets to play with everyone in that show. So there is an episode with Kamandi. Kids dont go...duh who is this guy and which earth is he from and is that an alternate future story deriving from.... No,they go...hey cool story with the talking lions and Gorillas. They get the cool stuff and care less about all the mumbo-jumbo-continuity-crap. Maybe we should too, like a story arc for what it is and not sweat the How-to-tie-it-all-together rubbish im not new to comics, not counting kids comics, been reading for years now  Just guess im used to liner format. I only read 2000 AD, they seem more precious (not sure if correct word) with characters so less chance the history is messed around. For each year that passes, in general the characters age a year. or at least the timeline is consistant and new arcs set after the last ones. The stories have set length, generally always finish the same time with shorter stories that last just that Prog to fill if something finishes earlier then the others. Then when one set of characters story arcs end, new ones begin with new set from the 2000 AD world. This is kept track of too in the intro at start of the comic, so you know how many Progs are left in the current stories and what is coming next. There are also often ‘jumping on Progs’ so new readers can pick it up and not be lost in the middle of anything. Continuity is important I think. I realise some contradiction would happen, has happen in one my fav 2000 AD character stories (Bad Company) where lot meant to have died but brought back for a reboot. Just feel to constantly use it to alter and change things seems like lazy writing. But Marvel/DC has twice the history, I guess maybe it inevitable to have so many different timelines and universes Anyway, maybe I was an odd child, I very much care about mumbo-jumbo-continuity-crap and noticed when someone was in my cartoon that shouldn’t be lol |
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Pat T
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Post by Pat T on Jan 17, 2018 0:53:20 GMT -5
You'll find examples of both. There are "Superman got old" stories like Kingdom Come published the same year as "Superman is still young" stories. It's neither necessary nor possible to fit all of the stories into a single continuity without contradiction. It's collaborative fiction with hundreds (thousands?) of authors choosing and rejecting story elements from a buffet of concepts, according to the needs of the moment. Just keep reading, and you will figure out how it all works. If you are new to comics, then get recommendations as to which old stories are worth reading, and which are not worth your time. I used to feel this way too, there is a large part of me that wants all that continuity and realism, "this happened in Cap 113 and I want it to still be true" kind of rubbish. However when I think of reading comics as a kid, there were plenty of 2nd or 3rd part stories I picked up. All it ever did was make me determined to get the earlier books. I "got" the story, I enjoyed what was in front of me, I moved on. Simple. Look at cartoons, I was watching Brave and Bold this morning. Bats gets to play with everyone in that show. So there is an episode with Kamandi. Kids dont go...duh who is this guy and which earth is he from and is that an alternate future story deriving from.... No,they go...hey cool story with the talking lions and Gorillas. They get the cool stuff and care less about all the mumbo-jumbo-continuity-crap. Maybe we should too, like a story arc for what it is and not sweat the How-to-tie-it-all-together rubbish im not new to comics, not counting kids comics, been reading for years now Just guess im used to liner format. I only read 2000 AD, they seem more precious (not sure if correct word) with characters so less chance the history is messed around. For each year that passes, in general the characters age a year. or at least the timeline is consistant and new arcs set after the last ones. The stories have set length, generally always finish the same time with shorter stories that last just that Prog to fill if something finishes earlier then the others. Then when one set of characters story arcs end, new ones begin with new set from the 2000 AD world. This is kept track of too in the intro at start of the comic, so you know how many Progs are left in the current stories and what is coming next. There are also often ‘jumping on Progs’ so new readers can pick it up and not be lost in the middle of anything. Continuity is important I think. I realise some contradiction would happen, has happen in one my fav 2000 AD character stories (Bad Company) where lot meant to have died but brought back for a reboot. Just feel to constantly use it to alter and change things seems like lazy writing. But Marvel/DC has twice the history, I guess maybe it inevitable to have so many different timelines and universes Anyway, maybe I was an odd child, I very much care about mumbo-jumbo-continuity-crap and noticed when someone was in my cartoon that shouldn’t be lol But what gives one generation of reader the right to enjoy the best version of a character during the character's prime over somebody who happens to be born later? The Spider-Man I like is the same guy a brand new reader can read about. He's the one that became the icon. Why should a new reader be forced to see him as an old man or wait for a new one? |
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Pat T
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Post by Pat T on Jan 17, 2018 0:54:07 GMT -5
But what gives one generation of reader the right to enjoy the best version of a character during the character's prime
over somebody who happens to be born later? The Spider-Man I like is the same guy a brand new reader can read about.
He's the one that became the icon. Why should a new reader be forced to see him as an old man or wait for a new one?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 1:45:58 GMT -5
But what gives one generation of reader the right to enjoy the best version of a character during the character's prime over somebody who happens to be born later? The Spider-Man I like is the same guy a brand new reader can read about. He's the one that became the icon. Why should a new reader be forced to see him as an old man or wait for a new one? With the availability of digital editions and trades, a brand new reader can read any era's version they want without the need to keep the character the same in perpetuity. However, for stories to ultimately be satisfying for most people, there has to be resolution, growth and change in the characters of the conflicts the characters face are meaningless and the characters themselves are cardboard puppets not best versions of the characters. If you want perpetual sameness then don't bother with trying to tell a continual story, if you want to tell continual stories they have to move forward and character shave to grow and change. If you never want say Spider-Man to grow up and change as he faces the challenges the stories present to him, that's fine but realize each story then is it's own thing without connections to the others because he can never grow or change from the events of a story if you are going to keep him perpetually the same. Archie managed it for decades but they weren't telling one continuous story bit a series of vignettes featuring a never changing set of characters. But if you want to tell a single continued story, the events of the stories have to affect the characters and they have to grow and change. You cannot then keep them the same of it becomes an exercise is pointlessness and futility. Essentially continued stories and lack of change are mutually exclusive if you plan to have any kind of satisfying experience for your readership. And if the theme of Spider-Man is with great power comes great responsibility, it is rendered meaningless unless we see Peter take responsibility, grow and change as he faces the challenges and obstacles he faces. If he doesn't, you've rendered the thematic core of your story meaningless and moot. And once that happens, all but the hardcore completists will grow tired and bored after a while and look elsewhere for more satisfying storytelling experiences...oh wait... -M |
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Post by berkley on Jan 17, 2018 3:19:26 GMT -5
I love the approach Rex Stout took in his Nero Wolfe series of detective novels, which I believe started in the early 30s and went on to the early 70s: he simply had Wolfe and narrator Archie Goodwin stay roughly he same age throughout, while acknowledging the changes in culture and history that went on all round them. One time he even had a character from a much earlier book re-appear as an older person, more or less the same age he would have been had he aged in real time, but Goodwin and Wolfe were implicitly the same age they had been when they first encountered the character way back when - and it worked! Not only for me personally, but, as far as I know, for everyone who's read the series - at least I've never read or heard of any complaints - and there's nothing else remotely fantastic or magical or unrealistic in any way about the series, beyond a few detective genre conventions, and not even many of those. Why it works is an interesting question, but probably this isn't the time or place to get into it.
I think this is exactly what they should do in comics, but in typical superhero comic culture fashion everyone's so obsessed with "continuity" and "canon" and everything "making sense" I doubt it would be accepted, or even considered.
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Søren
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I trademarked my name two years ago. Swore I'd kill any turniphead that tried to use it
Posts: 321
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Post by Søren on Jan 17, 2018 4:31:53 GMT -5
Pat T were you trying to quote me? I was born in the 90s. Accepted that I missed a lot of my favourite characters history first time as my comic reading only start in 2000s. But bonus is I can buy the reprinted graphic novel collection. I can see how they grow and how event change them. I love that. I like Dredd is older, feeling age at times, and more grumpy if that is possible lol and that past events effect him now. Age opens more stories rarther then going over the same things. But if it all written is ultimately didn't happen or was a dream in a alternative universe then what the point in writing it ? I really don't mind some lack of continuity or world aging around characters but see it seems to much in things like Marvel. Like the writers write something, write themself into a corner, don't know what to do so hit the big deus ex machina button and say it never happened. That's boring to me and bit insulting to good characters.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 17, 2018 11:13:46 GMT -5
But if it all written is ultimately didn't happen or was a dream in a alternative universe then what the point in writing it ? To tell a good story. They're all imaginary stories. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jan 17, 2018 12:21:19 GMT -5
I love the approach Rex Stout took in his Nero Wolfe series of detective novels, which I believe started in the early 30s and went on to the early 70s: he simply had Wolfe and narrator Archie Goodwin stay roughly he same age throughout, while acknowledging the changes in culture and history that went on all round them. One time he even had a character from a much earlier book re-appear as an older person, more or less the same age he would have been had he aged in real time, but Goodwin and Wolfe were implicitly the same age they had been when they first encountered the character way back when - and it worked! Not only for me personally, but, as far as I know, for everyone who's read the series - at least I've never read or heard of any complaints - and not that there's nothing else remotely fantastic or magical or unrealistic in any way about the series, beyond a few detective genre conventions, and not even many of those. Why it works is an interesting question, but probably this isn't the time or place to get into it. I think this is exactly what they should do in comics, but in typical superhero comic culture fashion everyone's so obsessed with "continuity" and "canon" and everything "making sense" I doubt it would be accepted, or even considered. Bob Haney adopted the same approach in at least one issue of Brave and the Bold where Batman teamed up with Sgt Rock. Flashing back to 1944, we see an adult Bruce Wayne speak with Churchill in London. The comic cuts back to present day 1969 and sure enough, Wayne is as young as ever. There's no reference to magic elixirs, alternate Earths, time spent in limbo; just the acceptance of the idea that if there are comics from 1944 with Batman in them, then it stands to reason that Batman was around in 1944. Honestly, I think I'd prefer this approach to a sliding timeline. "Look, we know this doesn't make sense but we hope you'll appreciate the sense that the Batman you're reading about now is the same guy he's always been" works better for me than "Sure this is technically DC's 18th version of Batman after all the reboots we've done over the past 30 years, but at least it explains why he's still so young. Of course, don't get too attached since we'll be replacing him in time too". |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 17, 2018 12:40:57 GMT -5
I love the approach Rex Stout took in his Nero Wolfe series of detective novels, which I believe started in the early 30s and went on to the early 70s: he simply had Wolfe and narrator Archie Goodwin stay roughly he same age throughout, while acknowledging the changes in culture and history that went on all round them. One time he even had a character from a much earlier book re-appear as an older person, more or less the same age he would have been had he aged in real time, but Goodwin and Wolfe were implicitly the same age they had been when they first encountered the character way back when - and it worked! Not only for me personally, but, as far as I know, for everyone who's read the series - at least I've never read or heard of any complaints - and not that there's nothing else remotely fantastic or magical or unrealistic in any way about the series, beyond a few detective genre conventions, and not even many of those. Why it works is an interesting question, but probably this isn't the time or place to get into it. I think this is exactly what they should do in comics, but in typical superhero comic culture fashion everyone's so obsessed with "continuity" and "canon" and everything "making sense" I doubt it would be accepted, or even considered. Bob Haney adopted the same approach in at least one issue of Brave and the Bold where Batman teamed up with Sgt Rock. Flashing back to 1944, we see an adult Bruce Wayne speak with Churchill in London. The comic cuts back to present day 1969 and sure enough, Wayne is as young as ever. There's no reference to magic elixirs, alternate Earths, time spent in limbo; just the acceptance of the idea that if there are comics from 1944 with Batman in them, then it stands to reason that Batman was around in 1944. Honestly, I think I'd prefer this approach to a sliding timeline. "Look, we know this doesn't make sense but we hope you'll appreciate the sense that the Batman you're reading about now is the same guy he's always been" works better for me than "Sure this is technically DC's 18th version of Batman after all the reboots we've done over the past 30 years, but at least it explains why he's still so young. Of course, don't get too attached since we'll be replacing him in time too". Of course it doesn't make sense. They're funnybooks. Super-hero books, in particular, are inherently ridiculous. Just roll with it. |
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Søren
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I trademarked my name two years ago. Swore I'd kill any turniphead that tried to use it
Posts: 321
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Post by Søren on Jan 17, 2018 13:21:14 GMT -5
But if it all written is ultimately didn't happen or was a dream in a alternative universe then what the point in writing it ? To tell a good story. They're all imaginary stories. I feel bit cheated if put lot of time and money to read and buy a story only to at the end find none of it is relevant to anything, and it all be disregarded by the next comic and never reference again. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 17, 2018 13:24:35 GMT -5
To tell a good story. They're all imaginary stories. I feel bit cheated if put lot of time and money to read and buy a story only to at the end find none of it is relevant to anything, and it all be disregarded by the next comic and never reference again. Do you have the same problem with novels? With movies? I'm not being facetious. I'm honestly curious. I'm at a point where I could give two tugs of a dead dog's c@$& about continuity. I just want someone to tell good stories. |
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Post by rberman on Jan 17, 2018 13:28:39 GMT -5
To tell a good story. They're all imaginary stories. I feel bit cheated if put lot of time and money to read and buy a story only to at the end find none of it is relevant to anything, and it all be disregarded by the next comic and never reference again. Some comic books are built on inter-issue continuity, and some are not. Neither is superior; there are pros and cons to each. Some people will prefer one more than the other. |
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Søren
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I trademarked my name two years ago. Swore I'd kill any turniphead that tried to use it
Posts: 321
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Post by Søren on Jan 17, 2018 13:31:15 GMT -5
I feel bit cheated if put lot of time and money to read and buy a story only to at the end find none of it is relevant to anything, and it all be disregarded by the next comic and never reference again. Do you have the same problem with novels? With movies? I'm not being facetious. I'm honestly curious. I'm at a point where I could give two tugs of a dead dog's c@$& about continuity. I just want someone to tell good stories. Novels and movies carry on from each other generally? unless they stand alone which case that is different as nothing meant to be continued. and not sure what that means but ok? lol if you enjoy them that fine. I just like some continuity, shows the writer cares more about the character, needs to plan ahead as they can't just say 'it never really happened!'. |
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Post by rberman on Jan 17, 2018 13:46:47 GMT -5
Do you have the same problem with novels? With movies? I'm not being facetious. I'm honestly curious. I'm at a point where I could give two tugs of a dead dog's c@$& about continuity. I just want someone to tell good stories. Novels and movies carry on from each other generally? unless they stand alone which case that is different as nothing meant to be continued. and not sure what that means but ok? lol if you enjoy them that fine. I just like some continuity, shows the writer cares more about the character, needs to plan ahead as they can't just say 'it never really happened!'. Individual writers tend to maintain continuity in the string of stories they write. It's when the creative team changes that continuity tends to get ignored or ret-conned. An example of doing it poorly (IMHO) was the genesis of X-Factor, which not only involved resurrecting Jean Grey (thus cheapening one of the most iconic death stories in comics) but also required Cyclops to abandon his wife. An example of doing it well (again IMHO) was when Joss Whedon decided that to tell a good Kitty Pryde story in his Astonishing X-Men run, he needed Colossus back from the dead. (Not just dead, but dead, turned to ash, and scattered across the land.) So Whedon just declared that nope, Colossus had not really died, and he gave the characters a page of "lampshading" dialogue where they discussed the mystery of Colossus' survival without ever really explaining it, and then the story moved on to where it needed to go. The same thing happened in Star Wars: The Force Awakens when Rey asks Maz how she got Luke's lightsaber, last seen thirty years earlier falling out of Luke's amputated hand down a pit that leads to the center of a gas giant planet. Maz just says that the explanation is "A story for another time." Do I ever think the movies will take the time needed to explain this plot hole? Nope! We just have to roll with it. (I'm sure some book or comic book will make up an explanation; any fan can do the same.) |
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Søren
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I trademarked my name two years ago. Swore I'd kill any turniphead that tried to use it
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Post by Søren on Jan 17, 2018 13:58:03 GMT -5
Novels and movies carry on from each other generally? unless they stand alone which case that is different as nothing meant to be continued. and not sure what that means but ok? lol if you enjoy them that fine. I just like some continuity, shows the writer cares more about the character, needs to plan ahead as they can't just say 'it never really happened!'. Individual writers tend to maintain continuity in the string of stories they write. It's when the creative team changes that continuity tends to get ignored or ret-conned. An example of doing it poorly (IMHO) was the genesis of X-Factor, which not only involved resurrecting Jean Grey (thus cheapening one of the most iconic death stories in comics) but also required Cyclops to abandon his wife. An example of doing it well (again IMHO) was when Joss Whedon decided that to tell a good Kitty Pryde story in his Astonishing X-Men run, he needed Colossus back from the dead. (Not just dead, but dead, turned to ash, and scattered across the land.) So Whedon just declared that nope, Colossus had not really died, and he gave the characters a page of "lampshading" dialogue where they discussed the mystery of Colossus' survival without ever really explaining it, and then the story moved on to where it needed to go. The same thing happened in Star Wars: The Force Awakens when Rey asks Maz how she got Luke's lightsaber, last seen thirty years earlier falling out of Luke's amputated hand down a pit that leads to the center of a gas giant planet. Maz just says that the explanation is "A story for another time." Do I ever think the movies will take the time needed to explain this plot hole? Nope! We just have to roll with it. (I'm sure some book or comic book will make up an explanation; any fan can do the same.) ^ good points (: Honestly don't know much about Marvel things, maybe there are too many writers team? But guess that inventible with comic that been going for so long. Things I read so far the creative team is seems smaller with select people only writing for more iconic characters. Must make it easier to keep to a continuing story. |
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Just guess im used to liner format. I only read 2000 AD, they seem more precious (not sure if correct word) with characters so less chance the history is messed around. For each year that passes, in general the characters age a year. or at least the timeline is consistant and new arcs set after the last ones. The stories have set length, generally always finish the same time with shorter stories that last just that Prog to fill if something finishes earlier then the others. 
