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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 22:17:54 GMT -5
I HATE mega-crossover events that interrupt every ongoing series. No, no, no, you've got to understand that the big 2 publish shared universe stories featuring all the characters in their sandbox and the individual ongoing series interrupt those stories to give spotlight to certain characters. That's the new paradigm that shared universe super-hero publishers operate under. -M |
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Post by beccabear67 on Oct 10, 2019 0:11:33 GMT -5
I'm just reading Avengers from #123-135 for the first time and it's irritating how many issues end telling you to make sure to read the new Giant-Size issue, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four, or Captain America for either the conclusion of the issue's story, or an answer to a question raised in the issue... arrgh! So they were driving people nuts in 1974 with this stuff, but I wish I could get the Captain Marvel #33 or Fantastic Four #150 I'm directed to at the 1974 price.
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 10, 2019 8:21:35 GMT -5
I HATE mega-crossover events that interrupt every ongoing series. No, no, no, you've got to understand that the big 2 publish shared universe stories featuring all the characters in their sandbox and the individual ongoing series interrupt those stories to give spotlight to certain characters. That's the new paradigm that shared universe super-hero publishers operate under. -M And that is why i no longer read the Big Two. |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 10, 2019 8:27:43 GMT -5
I'm just reading Avengers from #123-135 for the first time and it's irritating how many issues end telling you to make sure to read the new Giant-Size issue, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four, or Captain America for either the conclusion of the issue's story, or an answer to a question raised in the issue... arrgh! So they were driving people nuts in 1974 with this stuff, but I wish I could get the Captain Marvel #33 or Fantastic Four #150 I'm directed to at the 1974 price. At the time, it was pretty cool when they continued stories somewhere or did a crossover. They were rare and often special, as in Starlin ending the Thanos saga in Avengers and Two-In-One annuals. They gave you a heads up, and in those times you could buy every Marvel comic that came out anyway. (or at least all the ones you liked).
Today's event driven publishing is vastly different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 8:28:15 GMT -5
I HATE mega-crossover events that interrupt every ongoing series. I'm the opposite of you, I dig these mega-crossover events and wanting for more ...  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 13:25:38 GMT -5
No, no, no, you've got to understand that the big 2 publish shared universe stories featuring all the characters in their sandbox and the individual ongoing series interrupt those stories to give spotlight to certain characters. That's the new paradigm that shared universe super-hero publishers operate under. -M And that is why i no longer read the Big Two. I'm just reading Avengers from #123-135 for the first time and it's irritating how many issues end telling you to make sure to read the new Giant-Size issue, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four, or Captain America for either the conclusion of the issue's story, or an answer to a question raised in the issue... arrgh! So they were driving people nuts in 1974 with this stuff, but I wish I could get the Captain Marvel #33 or Fantastic Four #150 I'm directed to at the 1974 price. At the time, it was pretty cool when they continued stories somewhere or did a crossover. They were rare and often special, as in Starlin ending the Thanos saga in Avengers and Two-In-One annuals. They gave you a heads up, and in those times you could buy every Marvel comic that came out anyway. (or at least all the ones you liked).
Today's event driven publishing is vastly different.
You may not read them any more, but more fans still buy them than other comics. And if over the years comic fans didn't praise all the cross-overs (like the Avengers storylines by Englehart and others of that ilk)and buy them up in higher numbers than the regular issues (creating noticeable sales bumps when looking at sales reports), and if they didn't buy the shared universe event series in much higher numbers than the regular books, the big 2 wouldn't keep putting them out. Comic publishers are reactive, they react to sales trends, and when comics fans tell them they want these things by buying more of them than regular ongoing series and when they constantly tell them they only buy books that "matter" the result is the emphasis on line-wide continuity and events. Fans get the comics their buying patterns deserve. SO put the onus on where it belongs, the buying habits of comic fans. -M |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 10, 2019 13:50:17 GMT -5
mrp, I realize all that. I am an old codger who loved the Silver and Bronze ages. They no longer make comics for me. That is fine, there are other publishers that do. If that is what fans want, that is what they get. Mores the pity.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 10, 2019 14:09:59 GMT -5
I'm just reading Avengers from #123-135 for the first time and it's irritating how many issues end telling you to make sure to read the new Giant-Size issue, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four, or Captain America for either the conclusion of the issue's story, or an answer to a question raised in the issue... arrgh! So they were driving people nuts in 1974 with this stuff, but I wish I could get the Captain Marvel #33 or Fantastic Four #150 I'm directed to at the 1974 price. When they do reprint COLLECTIONS, it is absolutely imperitive that crossover issues like that be included. Sometimes, I've seen it go both ways... like when they did the AVENGERS-DEFENDERS crossover, I'm pretty sure every issue of the story was included in BOTH sets of ESSENTIAL or MASTERWORKS series. And there was also a separate TPB of just that crossover.
A simpler example would be when Roy Thomas was writing both DR. STRANGE and AVENGERS, and did that 2-parter involving the Norse Fire and Ice demons. It's a B**** if you're trying to buy the original comics, especially in cases where those specific crossover issues cost WAY more than the rest of a run.
I'll say it again... when they started doing MASTERWORKS and ESSENTIAL books, they were decades overdue!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 14:24:28 GMT -5
And that is why i no longer read the Big Two. At the time, it was pretty cool when they continued stories somewhere or did a crossover. They were rare and often special, as in Starlin ending the Thanos saga in Avengers and Two-In-One annuals. They gave you a heads up, and in those times you could buy every Marvel comic that came out anyway. (or at least all the ones you liked).
Today's event driven publishing is vastly different.
You may not read them any more, but more fans still buy them than other comics. And if over the years comic fans didn't praise all the cross-overs (like the Avengers storylines by Englehart and others of that ilk)and buy them up in higher numbers than the regular issues (creating noticeable sales bumps when looking at sales reports), and if they didn't buy the shared universe event series in much higher numbers than the regular books, the big 2 wouldn't keep putting them out. Comic publishers are reactive, they react to sales trends, and when comics fans tell them they want these things by buying more of them than regular ongoing series and when they constantly tell them they only buy books that "matter" the result is the emphasis on line-wide continuity and events. Fans get the comics their buying patterns deserve. SO put the onus on where it belongs, the buying habits of comic fans. -M I follow Comichron and Diamond on social media. And I notice that when I check the highest-selling comic for each month. I mean, in my social circle, and elsewhere, I hear nothing but criticism of the amount of X-books, or an X-book being relaunched, but when I check the highest-selling book, by units or profit, there's often an X-book in there. People (not on about anyone here) criticise Venom and Carnage, but it's not uncommon to see them, whether part of a crossover or not, being the top-selling book now and again. |
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Post by lordyam on Oct 10, 2019 14:28:08 GMT -5
That lawsuit always baffled me, can't believe how DC screwed over Fawcett! The characters are not that similar except for the super strength and both having a cape. That type of lawsuit would be laughed out of court today. I didn't realize that Captain Marvel flew before Superman, interesting fact. Here's the funny story I heard.
In reaction to the success of SUPERMAN, "everyone" wanted a piece of that action. Some were more blatent than others, and a few were sued out of existence.
Over at Fawcett... allegedly, the editors told their staff to SPECIFICALLY create a RIP-OFF of Superman. REALLY.
However... the writers & artists involved had TOO MUCH talent and integrity to "simply" do a blatent swipe... and instead, got "creative"... and depending on how you look at it, in their own way, came up with something very different, and possibly even BETTER than what had inspired them.
The result of this? CAPTAIN MARVEL wound up OUT-SELLING Superman about 2 to 1. That's what really pissed off National. Not just the imitation-- but that CM was MORE SUCCESSFUL and MORE POPULAR than Superman.
"Hey! Those bastards are stealing OUR money!!!!"
The lawsuit went on for years on end, actually being tossed out of court several times. But National KEPT suing!!!
Eventually, the drop in sales of ALL comics across the board, coupled with the INCESSANT legal bills and hassles, made Fawcett decide to SETTLE OUT OF COURT. They agreed to stop publishing Captain Marvel (they were basically getting out of comics entirely anyway) and in return National would DROP the non-stop lawsuits.
Funny thing, though... when CM stopped being published, at least 2 overseas licensees didn't wanna let go. Down in Brazil, new episodes of CM continued being created by Brazillian writers & artists for years. Meanwhile, in England, the publisher hired Mick Anglo to create a replacement series, and the result-- MARVELMAN-- became the most successful and longest-running superhero in the history of English comic-books, running for 346 issues.
From what I heard some of the plots Captain Marvel did WERE a rip off of Superman plots. The cape, the black hair, the buff look etc were also blatantly copied. they both ripped each other off in an endless cycle of circle jerking so both kind of ended up looking childish. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 14:28:55 GMT -5
You may not read them any more, but more fans still buy them than other comics. And if over the years comic fans didn't praise all the cross-overs (like the Avengers storylines by Englehart and others of that ilk)and buy them up in higher numbers than the regular issues (creating noticeable sales bumps when looking at sales reports), and if they didn't buy the shared universe event series in much higher numbers than the regular books, the big 2 wouldn't keep putting them out. Comic publishers are reactive, they react to sales trends, and when comics fans tell them they want these things by buying more of them than regular ongoing series and when they constantly tell them they only buy books that "matter" the result is the emphasis on line-wide continuity and events. Fans get the comics their buying patterns deserve. SO put the onus on where it belongs, the buying habits of comic fans. -M I follow Comichron and Diamond on social media. And I notice that when I check the highest-selling comic for each month. I mean, in my social circle, and elsewhere, I hear nothing but criticism of the amount of X-books, or an X-book being relaunched, but when I check the highest-selling book, by units or profit, there's often an X-book in there. People (not on about anyone here) criticise Venom and Carnage, but it's not uncommon to see them, whether part of a crossover or not, being the top-selling book now and again. The vast majority of comics book customers never post on message boards or social media about comics. They buy what they like, read it, and enjoy it; they are a silent majority. It's usually the people who aren't happy who post in such places; they are a vocal minority. Buyers' dollars speak louder than internet posts. -M |
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Post by beccabear67 on Oct 10, 2019 16:03:54 GMT -5
I'm just reading Avengers from #123-135 for the first time and it's irritating how many issues end telling you to make sure to read the new Giant-Size issue, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four, or Captain America for either the conclusion of the issue's story, or an answer to a question raised in the issue... arrgh! So they were driving people nuts in 1974 with this stuff, but I wish I could get the Captain Marvel #33 or Fantastic Four #150 I'm directed to at the 1974 price. When they do reprint COLLECTIONS, it is absolutely imperitive that crossover issues like that be included. Sometimes, I've seen it go both ways... like when they did the AVENGERS-DEFENDERS crossover, I'm pretty sure every issue of the story was included in BOTH sets of ESSENTIAL or MASTERWORKS series. And there was also a separate TPB of just that crossover. A simpler example would be when Roy Thomas was writing both DR. STRANGE and AVENGERS, and did that 2-parter involving the Norse Fire and Ice demons. It's a B**** if you're trying to buy the original comics, especially in cases where those specific crossover issues cost WAY more than the rest of a run. I'll say it again... when they started doing MASTERWORKS and ESSENTIAL books, they were decades overdue!
I did manage to secure a Captain Marvel #33 (and 31 & 32), plus I have e-versions of the Giant-Size Avengers, but I may have to give up on Fantastic Four #150 for now. I forgot there was a Defenders x-over in there someplace as well, and Yellowjacket was a Defender for a little while too. At the time, it was pretty cool when they continued stories somewhere or did a crossover. They were rare and often special, as in Starlin ending the Thanos saga in Avengers and Two-In-One annuals. They gave you a heads up, and in those times you could buy every Marvel comic that came out anyway. (or at least all the ones you liked).
Today's event driven publishing is vastly different.
I guess it was the Secret Wars and Crisis "events" of the '80s that wore me (and my budget) out first. I assumed that the Avengers and Two-In-One Annuals part of the Warlock saga was because his own title had ended, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure if it had. I did actually enjoy getting all the parts of that one as a collector my first time around ('80s), and found I wanted them all again this time around... in fact I don't think I ever managed to get the Two-In-One part the first time (pre-ebay). I even got Logan's Run #6 and Team-Up #55 again. I don't think it was ever planned in advance for a Warlock storyline to incorporate disparate titles like the post Secret/Crisis types all have, and the modern created to be that way 'sagas' are mostly disappointing and sheer hype adding up to little. I did retroactively buy into the Shattering and Ages Of Apocalypse issues of 1999 X titles, including one Wolverine that was more of a mark-up over cover price. I'll give it a break-even grade with the only thing seeming to result being Cyclops absorbed within some other creature, but I figured they eventually brought such a major character back of course. |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 10, 2019 16:48:52 GMT -5
I HATE mega-crossover events that interrupt every ongoing series. Personally, I enjoyed it during Crisis on Infinite Earths and Zero Hour, but since that time, its all been rinse and repeat, with the so-called "even" not justifying either the effect on other titles, or its own cover price. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 17:06:23 GMT -5
It's as bad as when the WWF and WCW started monthly PPVs. Less is more. Always.
I don't want Raw to be 3 hours long. I don't want monthly PPV events. I want fewer events and a 2-hour Raw. And I want fewer events, fewer tie-ins and fewer big crossovers.
I'm a football fan. I like the FIFA World Cup. It takes place every four years. DC and Marvel, let's have an event every four years. And make it a limited series, e.g. 12 issues without the need for 17,834,201 tie-in issues.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 17:13:34 GMT -5
It's as bad as when the WWF and WCW started monthly PPVs. Less is more. Always. I don't want Raw to be 3 hours long. I don't want monthly PPV events. I want fewer events and a 2-hour Raw. And I want fewer events, fewer tie-ins and fewer big crossovers. I'm a football fan. I like the FIFA World Cup. It takes place every four years. DC and Marvel, let's have an event every four years. And make it a limited series, e.g. 12 issues without the need for 17,834,201 tie-in issues. And how do you propose they make up for the lost revenue in the intervening 3 years and from not having the 17,834,201 tie ins? They have to be able to answer that to their shareholders and those in the corporate cost-benefit analysis. Whomever cuts that revenue stream without an adequate replacement won't be working for Marvel or DC for very long, and whomever replaces them's first move will likely to be to reinstate those revenue streams. They have to answer to quarterly reports before they answer to fans, or they won't have a position where they are answering to any one (or getting a paycheck). The publishing wings aren't big money makers in the corporate structure, but they have to make sure they are not money losers or they might not be able to justify their existence at all. -M |
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