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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 27, 2017 11:34:38 GMT -5
Mmmmh... In that case, Cap's lawyer could probably have argued that Cap cashed the check as an active service member (it's just back pay, really) and quit afterwards. Thanks for clearing that up, Crimebuster! In one of the issues, Cap mentioned that he'd just get out of the "paying back the million dollars" problem, by asking billionaire Tony Stark a loan to pay it. I think it was in either #332 or #333 when Cap mentioned this. Sure, but how did Cap pay back Tony? ( That's what Civil war was all about!!!  ) |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 27, 2017 12:21:14 GMT -5
Mmmmh... In that case, Cap's lawyer could probably have argued that Cap cashed the check as an active service member (it's just back pay, really) and quit afterwards. Thanks for clearing that up, Crimebuster! In one of the issues, Cap mentioned that he'd just get out of the "paying back the million dollars" problem, by asking billionaire Tony Stark a loan to pay it. I think it was in either #332 or #333 when Cap mentioned this. I don't recall if he ever did this, though - just a few issues later, around #341, he and Tony get into the Armor Wars fight with each other and aren't on speaking terms for quite a while afterwards. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 27, 2017 12:34:16 GMT -5
In one of the issues, Cap mentioned that he'd just get out of the "paying back the million dollars" problem, by asking billionaire Tony Stark a loan to pay it. I think it was in either #332 or #333 when Cap mentioned this. I don't recall if he ever did this, though - just a few issues later, around #341, he and Tony get into the Armor Wars fight with each other and aren't on speaking terms for quite a while afterwards. Didn't Tony give Cap a vibranium or adamantium shield too? That must cost a pretty penny. Steve simply doesn't pay his debts. He should be Captain Welsh. |
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 27, 2017 13:06:55 GMT -5
I don't recall if he ever did this, though - just a few issues later, around #341, he and Tony get into the Armor Wars fight with each other and aren't on speaking terms for quite a while afterwards. Didn't Tony give Cap a vibranium or adamantium shield too? That must cost a pretty penny. Steve simply doesn't pay his debts. He should be Captain Welsh. Oh yeah, that's right. Tony gave him a new shield, so maybe he paid the debt at that point. Once Steve found out what Tony was doing, though, he returned the shield and got a new one from T'Challa instead, because he viewed Tony's shield as a bribe attempt. I should just get the issue out and check. |
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Post by sabongero on Sept 27, 2017 15:52:20 GMT -5
 Captain America #3370.75 USD/0.95 CAD @ January 1988 "The Long Road Back" Writer: Mark Gruenwald Illustrator: Tom Morgan Inker: Dave Hunt Colorist: Gregory Wright Letterer: Jack Morelli Editor: Ralph Macchio Synopsis: Falcon, Nomad, Vagabond, and D-Man have been tracking Steve Rogers' van and finally found it inside an earthquake made hole in the middle of a rural road. However, there's no sign of Steve Rogers anywhere. D-Man suggested he get the van out of the hole. The team was unbelieving but he was able to wedge the van out of its place and throw it above in the open road. They all couldn't believe it, and Nomad, who is still jealous of his girlfriend's high praise of D-Man, felt dejected with D-Man's feat of strength. But D-man apparently has some medical condition and have heart issues as he settles down first before going back up. Falcon can't believe that Steve will just abandon all his equipment in the van, so he thinks Steve will come back, and he suggested they all wait for Steve to come back to the van. Elsewhere, in Las Vegas, Nevada, the Serpent Squad made their way towards the vault area of the casino, disguised in trench coats and felt tip hats. A huge security guard blocked them, and killed him and obtained his key card for access to doorways. They made their way to the elevator, and emerging on their destination floor, they were suited up in their Serpent Squad costumes and prepared for battle. The key card didn't open the vault, so one of the members spat venom-like acid on the lock, and their strongest member ripped away the door leading to the vault. Inside were armed security guards and tried to stop them but to no avail as the criminals overpowered them with their various powers (i.e. strength, rays, and speed). And they threatened the casino officials that they will rip their heads off unless they open the vault, to which the official acquiesced. And they started taking the loads of cash. Back at Steve Rogers' van, the heroes are still sitting around at nightfall waiting for the former Captain America to return. They each had their opinion on what they would tell Captain America when he returned. Falcon basically wants him to fight the bureaucrats, Nomad just wants him to go back to crimefighting and can even have the guise of Nomad back, and D-Man doesn't care about his accumulated wealth and will suggest to Cap to do with whatever he wants to do with his wealth that he made from Unlimited Wrestling. Later that night, a motorcycle arrived. Steve Rogers. He told them about what happened in the previous issue. Then he decided it's time to get back into business and that he's ready. Cap refused Nomad's offer, saying that Nomad earned the right to use the name and costume. D-Man went over his motorcycle and brought out a black costume he suggested to Steve Rogers. Nomad smacks himself in the head citing D-Man is a brown-noser. Back at the casino, the Serpent Squad was trying to leave the vault but was met with an army of armed police officers and security guards. They went on an alternate route and brought some of the casino officials with them as hostages. As they made it to the top floor, they dealt with the hostage negotiators. Driving in the van, Cap and company heard on the radio about the casino problem. They made their way to the casino, and Cap emerged in his black costume from the van. As they entered the casino they were blocked off by the police because they weren't recognized. And they were kicked out. Outside Cap comes up with a battle plan, having Falcon carry each one of them to the top floor. And they crashed through the top window and a melee ensued against the Serpent Squad. D-Man squared off and took out the powerhouse of the Serpent Squad. Cap used his usual acrobatic style attack while Falcon flew the hostages down two at a time. They took down the criminals. Cap got off the phone with the cops, who were irate that they interjected themselves. They broke the law. Cap has a predicament, where does he draw the line, now that he is no longer Captain America. Comments: They should have allowed Steve Rogers to keep the beard. It gives him more character. No matter what he does, trouble seemed to follow him. Hence he needed to go back to crimefighting eventually. It's in his nature now, and there's no escaping it. The only problem is he can't get away with breaking certain rules that the authorities gave leeway to Captain America. He is no longer that character. On a side note, Nomad just doesn't like D-Man. I wouldn't mind the two of them tangling in future issues. The only problem I have with D-Man, is from the neck and up, you can mistake him for Wolverine. And will D-Man's health issues finally catch up with him in future issues? After all, he cited a heart problem in the middle of the issue. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Sept 27, 2017 16:36:40 GMT -5
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Post by sabongero on Sept 27, 2017 18:41:29 GMT -5
Let the backlash begin. I remember a lot of people really angry at this storyarc where Super Patriot replaced Steve Rogers as Captain America. The following is the Captain America #337 Letters page:  |
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Post by spoon on Sept 27, 2017 19:10:13 GMT -5
I finished reading Captain America #287-350 a couple weeks back, so I have a lot of thoughts about these issues. I wrote about a few of the issues you've reviewed in the What Comic Have You Read Recently? thread, but couldn't up posting on them.
I agree with you that John Walker is a flawed character and then makes him interesting, but I disagree with the general impression that he's a good guy. I've referred to him as a sociopath in my own posts. In his appearances as Super-Patriot prior to #332, Walker seems most interested in personal gain. He wants to make a name for himself. He has a manager to make money. He's fine with deception and crime to advance his schemes. For instance, his cronies, the Buckies, pose as supporters of Captain America to smear Cap. It's true that Walker sometimes thinks "what would Captain America" do, but this is after he tried to undermine the previous Cap. A lot of this has to do with Walker's ego. Also, Walker really wants the job and he's an authoritarian. He'll do what he needs to keep the job, including going after the Watchdogs (who he agrees with on several substantive issues).
Walker steals Guardsman armor to attack his former allies to try to keep his job. He only tells the truth when he figures he's about to be caught, and it will help him keep his job to fess up.
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Post by spoon on Sept 27, 2017 19:30:38 GMT -5
Captain America #3370.75 USD/0.95 CAD @ January 1988 "The Long Road Back" Writer: Mark Gruenwald Illustrator: Tom Morgan Inker: Dave Hunt Colorist: Gregory Wright Letterer: Jack Morelli Editor: Ralph Macchio Synopsis: Falcon, Nomad, Vagabond, and D-Man have been tracking Steve Rogers' van and finally found it inside an earthquake made hole in the middle of a rural road. However, there's no sign of Steve Rogers anywhere. D-Man suggested he get the van out of the hole. The team was unbelieving but he was able to wedge the van out of its place and throw it above in the open road. They all couldn't believe it, and Nomad, who is still jealous of his girlfriend's high praise of D-Man, felt dejected with D-Man's feat of strength. But D-man apparently has some medical condition and have heart issues as he settles down first before going back up. Falcon can't believe that Steve will just abandon all his equipment in the van, so he thinks Steve will come back, and he suggested they all wait for Steve to come back to the van. Elsewhere, in Las Vegas, Nevada, the Serpent Squad made their way towards the vault area of the casino, disguised in trench coats and felt tip hats. A huge security guard blocked them, and killed him and obtained his key card for access to doorways. They made their way to the elevator, and emerging on their destination floor, they were suited up in their Serpent Squad costumes and prepared for battle. The key card didn't open the vault, so one of the members spat venom-like acid on the lock, and their strongest member ripped away the door leading to the vault. Inside were armed security guards and tried to stop them but to no avail as the criminals overpowered them with their various powers (i.e. strength, rays, and speed). And they threatened the casino officials that they will rip their heads off unless they open the vault, to which the official acquiesced. And they started taking the loads of cash. Back at Steve Rogers' van, the heroes are still sitting around at nightfall waiting for the former Captain America to return. They each had their opinion on what they would tell Captain America when he returned. Falcon basically wants him to fight the bureaucrats, Nomad just wants him to go back to crimefighting and can even have the guise of Nomad back, and D-Man doesn't care about his accumulated wealth and will suggest to Cap to do with whatever he wants to do with his wealth that he made from Unlimited Wrestling. Later that night, a motorcycle arrived. Steve Rogers. He told them about what happened in the previous issue. Then he decided it's time to get back into business and that he's ready. Cap refused Nomad's offer, saying that Nomad earned the right to use the name and costume. D-Man went over his motorcycle and brought out a black costume he suggested to Steve Rogers. Nomad smacks himself in the head citing D-Man is a brown-noser. Back at the casino, the Serpent Squad was trying to leave the vault but was met with an army of armed police officers and security guards. They went on an alternate route and brought some of the casino officials with them as hostages. As they made it to the top floor, they dealt with the hostage negotiators. Driving in the van, Cap and company heard on the radio about the casino problem. They made their way to the casino, and Cap emerged in his black costume from the van. As they entered the casino they were blocked off by the police because they weren't recognized. And they were kicked out. Outside Cap comes up with a battle plan, having Falcon carry each one of them to the top floor. And they crashed through the top window and a melee ensued against the Serpent Squad. D-Man squared off and took out the powerhouse of the Serpent Squad. Cap used his usual acrobatic style attack while Falcon flew the hostages down two at a time. They took down the criminals. Cap got off the phone with the cops, who were irate that they interjected themselves. They broke the law. Cap has a predicament, where does he draw the line, now that he is no longer Captain America. Comments: They should have allowed Steve Rogers to keep the beard. It gives him more character. No matter what he does, trouble seemed to follow him. Hence he needed to go back to crimefighting eventually. It's in his nature now, and there's no escaping it. The only problem is he can't get away with breaking certain rules that the authorities gave leeway to Captain America. He is no longer that character. On a side note, Nomad just doesn't like D-Man. I wouldn't mind the two of them tangling in future issues. The only problem I have with D-Man, is from the neck and up, you can mistake him for Wolverine. And will D-Man's health issues finally catch up with him in future issues? After all, he cited a heart problem in the middle of the issue. The four snake-themed criminals in this issue (Fer-de-Lance, Puff Adder, Black Racer, and Copperhead) are four new characters, not prior members of the Serpent Society or one of the Serpent Squads. I don't think they actually use a team name either. This will important in later issues. D-Man's costume was a subject of discussion in previous issues when he teamed with Cap. The headpiece evokes Wolverine, but he noted the rest of the outfit was adapted from Daredevil's original costume. It emphasizes that D-Man is a charmingly mixed-up newbie. |
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Post by spoon on Sept 27, 2017 19:54:12 GMT -5
 Captain America #334Comments: The cover page with the new Captain America and Bucky jumping into action is a great cover, giving a feeling that we have a new era and it's all slam bang action against villainy. It just gave off a positive vibe. The new Bucky is a black guy, but his first training is remedial English instead of physical or combat exercise. Mid to late 80's, and the black Bucky's doing remedial English at the Pentagon. Here's Gruenwald writing that the new Bucky is a dummy. I wonder if the new Bucky was hispanic or chinese, would he be going to English as a second Language class (ESL). John Walker had two other super-powered friends who were white. Why didn't Mark Gruenwald choose either one, and what class would they be attending after being chosen as Bucky? Sign of the times, and it's only thirty years ago. Here's a sign of the times, John Walker used a public phone in the Pentagon to call his former manager. The case of Lemar Hoskins, the new Bucky (later Battle Star) is a fascinating situation. I don't know what Gruenwald was thinking, but unfortunately, I think he decided to play on negative racial stereotypes. Lemar was previously one of a trio of Walker's allies called the Bold Urban Commandoes (a.k.a. the Buckies). Now, it's true neither of the either two Buckies are black. One is clearly white. The other seems to be Latino, but later gets a non-Latino-sounding surname. But Lemar seems to be the leader of the Buckies. They also go around wearing Cap masks (but with a "B" in place of the "A") but shirtless. Combined with the use of the word "Urban" in their name seems to play into racial stereotypes of brutish masculinity. Once Lemar becomes the Bucky (as opposed to a member of the Buckies trio), it seems like an effort is made to humanize him. He gets to be a bit less of a dumb macho jerk and more thoughtful. This increases over time, and Lemar is really more of the conscience and the cooler head in this Cap/Bucky duo. I have two competing theories about the remedial English bit. One is that it's simply a continuation of the negative stereotypes that characterized Lemar Hoskins before. The other theory is that Gruenwald wanted to put some reasons in the story for the transformation of his character. If Lemar is hitting the books as part of the job, maybe Gruenwald that provides a good reason for his change in character. Of course, is that John Walker was also a bit of meathead in his prior identity, but he's not placed in academic classes by the Commission. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 27, 2017 20:18:06 GMT -5
I'm very wary of ascribing views expressed by characters in fiction to the author. Sometimes, yes, it's clear that characters are mouthpieces for the author to espouse certain points of view. But many times, especially if the writer is really good, it can be unclear. For example, if a writer writes characters who are saying racist or insensitive things, does that mean the writer is necessarily racist or insensitive? Or are they just doing a good job of characterization for a character who is racist?
Or in this example, when Gruenwald is depicting institutionalized racism, does that mean he's condoning it? Or is it commentary on the Commission and America? Is it purposeful, or thoughtless?
We do know that Gruenwald was unaware that the term Bucky had negative racial connotations and was considered a slur, because he tells that story in the lettercolumn later on after he becomes aware of it and fixes it. One thing that happens in these issues is that Dwayne McDuffie consulted with Gruenwald about the use of the name Bucky and helped Gru rebrand him as Battlestar later on. It's very possible that, likewise, Gru was unintentionally treading on racial stereotypes with Lamar at first and then worked to correct it after he was made aware by McDuffie of the insensitive nature of the character's treatment. I personally find that more plausible than the suggestion that Gruenwald purposefully and cynically decided to use negative stereotypes.
For what it's worth, I really liked Battlestar and enjoyed Gruenwald's later use of him in the solo backup features. I would have liked to have seen more of him - I found him much more interesting than John Walker.
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Post by spoon on Sept 27, 2017 21:01:05 GMT -5
I'm very wary of ascribing views expressed by characters in fiction to the author. Sometimes, yes, it's clear that characters are mouthpieces for the author to espouse certain points of view. But many times, especially if the writer is really good, it can be unclear. For example, if a writer writes characters who are saying racist or insensitive things, does that mean the writer is necessarily racist or insensitive? Or are they just doing a good job of characterization for a character who is racist? Or in this example, when Gruenwald is depicting institutionalized racism, does that mean he's condoning it? Or is it commentary on the Commission and America? Is it purposeful, or thoughtless? I'm not sure if this was intended to be a response to me, but it's not what I'm taking issue with. I'm not claiming that racist characters are speaking for Gruenwald. I'm saying that the depiction of Lemar Hoskins, especially at the beginning, was marked by negative racial stereotypes. I'm not saying a racist character is a stand-in for Gruenwald. I'm saying what Gruenwald depicts as reality (how Hoskins objectively behaves and what he actually does) is stereotypical. Now, it's a murky situation, because arguably reality should depict a diversity of characters within a given group. Just because one black character is dumb or hyper-macho doesn't mean all black characters are. There are idiots of every ethnicity. Storytelling that reflects reality would have "bad" characters who are white and straight and male . . . but also bad characters/villains who are black or gay or female. I just know that I'm uncomfortable with early depiction of Hoskins and happier with what he evolved into over time. I don't disagree with this, and I don't think it's inconsistent with my views or concerns. I like this Gruenwald run. I don't think Gruenwald was a mustache twirling villain. Biases are complex things. People can unconsciously default to negative stereotyping, only recognizing the problem when it is pointed out to them. Just because one fixes a problem doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the beginning. Part of me feels bad discussing this, because Mark Gruenwald passed away years ago, so is not able to rebut any criticisms. I'm interested if he wrote anything on the issue. I don't think I've read any Battlestar back-ups since I read them way back when. However, I have read through #350 recently. I do like how he changed, and the story where he takes the name Battlestar is a turning point. He becomes the moral compass as John Walker goes more and more off the rails. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 27, 2017 22:19:59 GMT -5
I think we mostly agree on this.
I also agree with your assessment of John Walker as a psychopath. They actually smoothed out some of his rough edges when he became usagent, even though he was still portrayed as a violent jerk. But his history as an increasingly deranged murderer was kind of glossed over.
But I'm getting ahead of events.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 27, 2017 22:30:51 GMT -5
Captain America #3370.75 USD/0.95 CAD @ January 1988 "The Long Road Back" Writer: Mark Gruenwald Illustrator: Tom Morgan Inker: Dave Hunt Colorist: Gregory Wright Letterer: Jack Morelli Editor: Ralph Macchio Synopsis: Falcon, Nomad, Vagabond, and D-Man have been tracking Steve Rogers' van and finally found it inside an earthquake made hole in the middle of a rural road. However, there's no sign of Steve Rogers anywhere. D-Man suggested he get the van out of the hole. The team was unbelieving but he was able to wedge the van out of its place and throw it above in the open road. They all couldn't believe it, and Nomad, who is still jealous of his girlfriend's high praise of D-Man, felt dejected with D-Man's feat of strength. But D-man apparently has some medical condition and have heart issues as he settles down first before going back up. Falcon can't believe that Steve will just abandon all his equipment in the van, so he thinks Steve will come back, and he suggested they all wait for Steve to come back to the van. Elsewhere, in Las Vegas, Nevada, the Serpent Squad made their way towards the vault area of the casino, disguised in trench coats and felt tip hats. A huge security guard blocked them, and killed him and obtained his key card for access to doorways. They made their way to the elevator, and emerging on their destination floor, they were suited up in their Serpent Squad costumes and prepared for battle. The key card didn't open the vault, so one of the members spat venom-like acid on the lock, and their strongest member ripped away the door leading to the vault. Inside were armed security guards and tried to stop them but to no avail as the criminals overpowered them with their various powers (i.e. strength, rays, and speed). And they threatened the casino officials that they will rip their heads off unless they open the vault, to which the official acquiesced. And they started taking the loads of cash. Back at Steve Rogers' van, the heroes are still sitting around at nightfall waiting for the former Captain America to return. They each had their opinion on what they would tell Captain America when he returned. Falcon basically wants him to fight the bureaucrats, Nomad just wants him to go back to crimefighting and can even have the guise of Nomad back, and D-Man doesn't care about his accumulated wealth and will suggest to Cap to do with whatever he wants to do with his wealth that he made from Unlimited Wrestling. Later that night, a motorcycle arrived. Steve Rogers. He told them about what happened in the previous issue. Then he decided it's time to get back into business and that he's ready. Cap refused Nomad's offer, saying that Nomad earned the right to use the name and costume. D-Man went over his motorcycle and brought out a black costume he suggested to Steve Rogers. Nomad smacks himself in the head citing D-Man is a brown-noser. Back at the casino, the Serpent Squad was trying to leave the vault but was met with an army of armed police officers and security guards. They went on an alternate route and brought some of the casino officials with them as hostages. As they made it to the top floor, they dealt with the hostage negotiators. Driving in the van, Cap and company heard on the radio about the casino problem. They made their way to the casino, and Cap emerged in his black costume from the van. As they entered the casino they were blocked off by the police because they weren't recognized. And they were kicked out. Outside Cap comes up with a battle plan, having Falcon carry each one of them to the top floor. And they crashed through the top window and a melee ensued against the Serpent Squad. D-Man squared off and took out the powerhouse of the Serpent Squad. Cap used his usual acrobatic style attack while Falcon flew the hostages down two at a time. They took down the criminals. Cap got off the phone with the cops, who were irate that they interjected themselves. They broke the law. Cap has a predicament, where does he draw the line, now that he is no longer Captain America. Comments: They should have allowed Steve Rogers to keep the beard. It gives him more character. No matter what he does, trouble seemed to follow him. Hence he needed to go back to crimefighting eventually. It's in his nature now, and there's no escaping it. The only problem is he can't get away with breaking certain rules that the authorities gave leeway to Captain America. He is no longer that character. On a side note, Nomad just doesn't like D-Man. I wouldn't mind the two of them tangling in future issues. The only problem I have with D-Man, is from the neck and up, you can mistake him for Wolverine. And will D-Man's health issues finally catch up with him in future issues? After all, he cited a heart problem in the middle of the issue. I really liked when Steve donned the black costume and the name the Captain. It showed that he was willing to fight back and it was cool to see all his friends come to his aid. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 28, 2017 1:04:44 GMT -5
Anyway, gripes aside, gruenwald had an above-average run on the title. I still prefer JM DeMatteis' stories, prior; but, Gruenwald had some of the more entertaining middle-ground stories, at Marvel, in that era. Can I ask, what were JM DeMatteis' Captain America stories like? As in how did his stories differ from let's say Gruenwald's or Waid's? He wrote much of the run from 261-300. He followed not to long after the Stern and Byrne run, which is the ebst of the 80s Cap and some of the best Cap, period. De Matteis used a lot of Cap's symbolic nature, as Stern had and gruenwald would. He also brought back a lot of great characters. The 50s Bucky debuts as Nomad, here, and we see the Ameridroid, as well as a few excellent Red Skull stories. There are some issues by David Alan Kraft in this run (including the reunion with the Howling Commandos). De Matteis also handled the meeting between Cap and Deathlok, reintroduced Helmut Zemo (who had been the Phoenix, earlier on, but is now taking the mantle of Baron Zemo) and brought back Arnim Zola, played a bit with political symbolism, as Cap fights Everyman, who feels he better represents the common man. He continued the romance between Cap and Bernie Rosenthal and I believe he is the one who had her figure out that Cap and Steve Rogers were the same person, after he pretty much gives the same speech, in support of the right to utter hate speech, as part of the First Amendment, though I'm a little hazy on which issue that was. He spent a lot of time working with Mike Zeck on this, which is where Zeck's profile really rose, leading to Punisher and other things. prior to that, Zeck had been a favorite artist on Master of Kung Fu. The lead up to issue 300 is an epic saga of Nomad, the Red Skull and the Skull's daughter, culminating in his battle with Cap, and eventual death, in his original body. It is here we get the full origin of the Skull, including his real name. In many ways, De Matteis laid the groundwork for a lot of Gruenwald's themes; but, so did Roger Stern. I had sporadically bought Cap over the years (more in the Stern era) and this was when I was buying it fairly consistently. Zeck's art took a while for me to accept; but, he grew by leaps and bounds in this series. I think De Matteis handled the relationship aspects of Steve Roger's life better than Gruenwald or Waid and made him into a more rounded character. Gruenwald focused alot on political allegory, as well as just plain got a bit goofy, but had some excellent storylines in there. I don't think he ever quite had the same level of artistry, from his collaborators. Waid spent much of his time trying to undo a lot of the developments that came before, to get back to the Cap he enjoyed. I didn't mind that, too much; but, I also thought he could do better, in spots. I will say it was like Shakespeare, compared to the abomination that ended his run, with Liefeld and then Lee. De Matteis is a really under-rated writer, in my opinion. He had some really good defenders stories and was one of the real lynchpins to Justice League International. |
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