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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 4, 2021 21:07:40 GMT -5
Actually seeing Sauron in the Jackson movies was a big let-down for me. I'm just grateful that Jackson scrapped the scene in which the dark lord physically fought Aragorn at the end of the trilogy (a scene we saw the preparation for on the DVD's extras). We didn't get to see Sauron in the novel, and it made him a much more effective villain! Were they really planning to do that? Boy, I'm glad I didn't hear about it at the time because it could well have turned me off the movies completely before seeing them, even though they didn't actually include it in the final release. They did; you can see details of the plan starting at 8:50 in this clip : I couldn't possibly disagree less!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 5, 2021 1:10:18 GMT -5
Actually seeing Sauron in the Jackson movies was a big let-down for me. I'm just grateful that Jackson scrapped the scene in which the dark lord physically fought Aragorn at the end of the trilogy (a scene we saw the preparation for on the DVD's extras). We didn't get to see Sauron in the novel, and it made him a much more effective villain! ...the feeling that Sauron, even without the Ring and in this weakened, disembodied form, was such a huge, god-like, menacing presence that pervaded the whole story, including the scenes when he wasn't present or when his name even mentioned - IOW, every moment, start to finish - all of that made a huge impression. Giving that presence a visible form - even though as readers and as viewers we know he possessed one originally - showing it to us onscreen, was a serious error in judgement. Personally, I didn't mind Sauron appearing at the start of the first film at all (although I am glad Jackson refrained from having him take shape again and battle Aragorn in ROTK -- that would've been a collosal mistake). But I think showing Sauron in the opening prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring really had to be done from a cinematic perspective. The scene works well to quickly communicate to the audience not only how formidable Sauron is in the best possible cinematic way (i.e. show us, don't tell us), but it also communicates things like how dreadful the War of the Last Alliance was, how Narsil got broken, that Elrond -- and therefore all Elves -- are immortal, and how Isildur ended up with the Ring and how quickly it can corrupt the hearts of mortal men. I also didn't mind how Sauron looked in the film. Maybe it was because I was such a Star Wars nut back when I first encountered Tolkien's Middle-earth, but on some level I think I always imagined Sauron as some big Darth Vader type dude.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 17:15:53 GMT -5
Plaid Stallions has posted pics and an overview of the 1979 Open Door Enterprises Lord of the Rings merchandise catalog here. Here's the catalog cover: and a sample page... There are many more pages posted on the page in the link. It's soooo 70s though (which is not in itself a bad thing). -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 15, 2021 5:50:18 GMT -5
I re-read the chapter "The Old Forest" last night. Tolkien refers to a Hobbit legend that the trees there are somehow alive or awake, and hostile to outsiders. Certainly the trees seem to conspire to thwart the Hobbits' desired passage through the Old Forest, instead driving them southwards towards the Withywindle river where they encounter Old Man Willow. And clearly Old Man Willow is definitely alive, since he attacks the four Hobbits. So, I got to wondering, do we think (or has it ever been confirmed) that some of the trees in the Old Forest are Huorns -- Old Man Willow especially?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2021 5:56:56 GMT -5
I re-read the chapter "The Old Forest" last night. Tolkien refers to a Hobbit legend that the trees there are somehow alive or awake, and hostile to outsiders. Certainly the trees seem to conspire to thwart the Hobbits' desired passage through the Old Forest, instead driving them southwards towards the Withywindle river where they encounter Old Man Willow. And clearly Old Man Willow is definitely alive, since he attacks the four Hobbits. So, I got to wondering, do we think (or has it ever been confirmed) that some of the trees in the Old Forest are Huorns -- Old Man Willow especially? I've seen a couple of Tolkien/LOTR fan wikis that specifically state Old Man Willow and many of the trees of the Old Forest were Huorns, so if not confirmed, it is at least thought to be so by a large swath of Tolkien fandom. -M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Feb 15, 2021 12:53:18 GMT -5
I re-read the chapter "The Old Forest" last night. Tolkien refers to a Hobbit legend that the trees there are somehow alive or awake, and hostile to outsiders. Certainly the trees seem to conspire to thwart the Hobbits' desired passage through the Old Forest, instead driving them southwards towards the Withywindle river where they encounter Old Man Willow. And clearly Old Man Willow is definitely alive, since he attacks the four Hobbits. So, I got to wondering, do we think (or has it ever been confirmed) that some of the trees in the Old Forest are Huorns -- Old Man Willow especially? That's one of the reasons I've always thought the Entwives were in the Shire, or atleast once roamed there as the trees of the old forest were, or once were, the Entwives flock.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 21, 2021 9:53:24 GMT -5
I can't remember if we've talked about pronunciations that we initially got wrong or not in this thread...but I don't think so. Anyway, I got to thinking today about how I used to pronounce Smaug's name as "Smorg", like you'd pronounce the start of the word smorgasbord. It wasn't until I heard the BBC Radio dramatisation of The Hobbit in my early 20s that I realised I was wrong and it should be pronounced as "smowg", like brow, but with a g on the end. I also pronounced Sauron as "Saw-ron" for years, until the BBC radio play of LOTRs again put me straight in my early 20s and taught me it should be " Sow-ron", like a female pig. In addition, for the first few days of reading The Hobbit for the first time, I misread/mispronounced Gandalf's name as "Granddwarf". My best friend who was a big Tolkien fan put me straight pretty quickly. Anybody else initially pronounce some of Tolkien's names wrong?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Feb 21, 2021 10:43:09 GMT -5
I can't remember if we've talked about pronunciations that we initially got wrong or not in this thread...but I don't think so. Anyway, I got to thinking today about how I used to pronounce Smaug's name as "Smorg", like you'd pronounce the start of the word smorgasbord. It wasn't until I heard the BBC Radio dramatisation of The Hobbit in my early 20s that I realised I was wrong and it should be pronounced as "smowg", like brow, but with a g on the end. I also pronounced Sauron as "Saw-ron" for years, until the BBC radio play of LOTRs again put me straight in my early 20s and taught me it should be " Sow-ron", like a female pig. In addition, for the first few days of reading The Hobbit for the first time, I misread/mispronounced Gandalf's name as "Granddwarf". My best friend who was a big Tolkien fan before me put me straight pretty quickly. Anybody else initially pronounce some of Tolkien's names wrong? I still pronounce Smaug sort of phonetically to this day, I just can't shake the idea that the pronunciation is like smog.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 21, 2021 11:59:26 GMT -5
I read the book in French first, and so pronounced the names in a gallic fashion: Smog, Gollüm, Sow-rɔ̃, and so forth.
Plus, I mispronounced all elvish names in which a C is followed by an i or an e, as with Celeborn (Seleborn).
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Post by thwhtguardian on Feb 21, 2021 12:08:23 GMT -5
I read the book in French first, and so pronounced the names in a gallic fashion: Smog, Gollüm, Sow-rɔ̃, and so forth. Plus, I mispronounced all elvish names in which a C is followed by an i or an e, as with Celeborn (Seleborn). That's totally how I pronounce Celeborn too.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 21, 2021 13:39:24 GMT -5
I read the book in French first, and so pronounced the names in a gallic fashion: Smog, Gollüm, Sow-rɔ̃, and so forth. Plus, I mispronounced all elvish names in which a C is followed by an i or an e, as with Celeborn (Seleborn). In the English original there's a guide to the pronunciation of Elvish names in the appendix of LOTRs. Was there not such a thing in the French translation?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 21, 2021 14:32:56 GMT -5
I read the book in French first, and so pronounced the names in a gallic fashion: Smog, Gollüm, Sow-rɔ̃, and so forth. Plus, I mispronounced all elvish names in which a C is followed by an i or an e, as with Celeborn (Seleborn). In the English original there's a guide to the pronunciation of Elvish names in the appendix of LOTRs. Was there not such a thing in the French translation? Nope; the only appendix we had originally at the end of LoTR was The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen; the rest of the material from the appendices was published separately (and, I suspect, later and with a lower print run) in a more expensive format. That's where I eventually learned that all C s and G s were hard in the Elvish languages. (I must admit that Gil-Gallad sound much better than Gilles Gallad!) That's also where I learned that Merry's real name was Kalimac, and Sam's was Banazîr... an idea that I thought was downright silly back then. Since this is a work of fiction, why not give the characters their "real" name right from the start? I've since revised that opinion, seeing how Tolkien really wanted to drive our willing suspension of disbelief in his world building, and having "modern" names actually be based on the translation of their meaning in the original languages.
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Post by berkley on Feb 21, 2021 19:07:08 GMT -5
I can't recall where I first learned the correct pronunciation of Sauron - was it not in the appendices at the end of LotR? Wherever it was, IIRC it was also pointed out that the name was derived from the ancient Greek sauros, or lizard (as in dinosaur, terrible lizard).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 14:23:25 GMT -5
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Post by thwhtguardian on Feb 24, 2021 19:17:07 GMT -5
That's some serious nightmare fuel
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