Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 17, 2017 19:28:38 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this thread should be renamed as a general purpose Tolkien, LOTRs, Middle-earth etc discussion thread? You know, a bit like the "A Long Time Ago In A Galaxy Far, Far Away" thread is for all things Star Wars. What do you think, @mrp? Might be nice to have a general thread for all things Tolkien-related. Sounds good to me... -M Nice new thread title mrp, but *a-hem* shouldn't it be" Fly you fools!"?
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 17, 2017 19:31:20 GMT -5
I couldn't get into the LOTR movies the first time I tried to watch them for some reason. I ended up falling asleep during the wizard fight in The Fellowship of the Ring. It wasn't until I got into reading the source material that I was able to sit through the movies. My brothers has the recent Blu-Ray edition of the trilogy with the additional footage and I may try to borrow them over the holiday break. My Dad fell asleep in the cinema during the Fellowship of the Ring too. He wasn't much interested in fantasy, but the sheer volume of that film, particularly the battle scenes, makes me wonder how anyone could nod off during it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 19:33:29 GMT -5
Nice new thread title mrp, but *a-hem* shouldn't it be" Fly you fools!"? Maybe, I was in a rush on my way out the door to go see Last Jedi when I changed it and my memory is always faulty. I'll change it here in a second. Mea culpa. -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 17, 2017 19:38:55 GMT -5
My first question for this "new" all-purpose Tolkien thread is for those of you who have read the Silmarillion. How on Earth did you manage to read it? I devoured The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as a teenager and have re-read those books multiple times in the years since. I really do love those books and I know them really well, but I have tried to read The Silmarilion three times now and every time I end up giving up after about a chapter. That book really is some impenetrable s**t! 
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 20:00:37 GMT -5
My first question for this "new" all-purpose Tolkien thread is for those of you who have read the Silmarillion. How on Earth did you manage to read it? I devoured The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as a teenager and have re-read those books multiple times in the years since. I really do love those books and I know them really well, but I have tried to read The Silmarilion three times now and every time I end up giving up after about a chapter. That book really is some impenetrable s**t!  I was in eighth grade the first time I tried reading it and didn't get through it. I finally read it on summer break after my first year at university. I also read Unfinished Tales and the Book of Lost Tales that summer, and when the rest of the History of Middle Earth series came out, I read through the first 4 volumes, all of which contain most of the same stories that make up the Silmarillion in various different forms. If you think trying to get through the Silmarillion was tough, try The Lays of Beleriand, which is essentially (though not quite) The Silmarillion on the form of an epic poem rather than prose. I got through it much the way I get through anything I find of historical interest when the prose is dry and difficult to read. I do it in small chunks and take time to digest the narrative within sometimes even annotating it to keep the narrative threads in my head straight before moving onto the next small chunk. Once I made it through the Silmarillion and had the stories straight in my head, I was better able to watch the development of the stories through the various versions as the changes, both major and subtle, structural and plot wise became more apparent. However, now years later if I tried to read them again, I would be starting from scratch, and I did run out of steam after the 4th volume even though I own the first 11. The stories themselves are worth reading, but the execution of the stories does make it a laborious read. Unlike the Hobbit with Bilbo or LOTR with Frodo, you don't have a flow through character that makes the story and setting accessible to the reader and gives them a hook to push through the sometimes meandering prose, and there is a stronger overall narrative structure to the LOTR itself because it follows the structure of the medieval romance (which itself is not that far off from the monomyth structure of Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces) so the structure of the story is familiar and instinctual to a reader, while the Hobbit has the familiarity of a ripping bedtime story filled with magic and wonder but was targeted to a younger audience and avoids some of the density and medieval tendencies of Tolkien's other work. The Silmarillion lacks this and is much in the vein of his more academic writings and medieval style narratives, making it harder for the modern reader to connect with because it is much less familiar and accessible in its format and structure. (Having gotten through the Silmarillion and the Hoistory of Middle Earth volumes actually made those types medieval narratives more accessible for me whne I tacked them in grad school because of the familiarity factor). So really it's just a matter of plowing through really and using techniques to keep the narrative straight in your head that work for you. -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 18, 2017 1:45:50 GMT -5
Great advice, @mrp. Maybe approaching The Silmarillion as if it were a historical text and absorbing it in an academic fashion, with my own annotations etc, is the way to go. Parts of LOTRs are also written in that very archaic, medieval-esque way -- I'm thinking particularly parts of the Battle of the Pelenore Fields section of The Return of the King here -- and I've never had a problem getting through those. Your advice has definitely given me food for thought when it comes to my fourth (fourth!!) attempt at trying to read it, which I plan to try in the new year.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Dec 18, 2017 4:31:24 GMT -5
Hmm, yeah. I tried to read the Silmarillion about three times: the first time while still in elementary school after I had read LOTR the first time(got about 10 pages in and gave up) and then twice in high school (I think the farthest I got was about 30-40 pages in). I also started, and gave up on, Unfinished Tales at about the same time. Personally, I just don't find it worth the effort to read any of that material published after Tolkien's death. Don't get me wrong, I admire the guy's genius for world-building and for basically creating the languages spoken by the people in that world - but sort of in response to MRP's point, if I'm going to go through that trouble, I'd rather just read actual medieval narratives (some which were translated quite adeptly by Tolkien himself).
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 18, 2017 6:55:05 GMT -5
My first question for this "new" all-purpose Tolkien thread is for those of you who have read the Silmarillion. How on Earth did you manage to read it? I devoured The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as a teenager and have re-read those books multiple times in the years since. I really do love those books and I know them really well, but I have tried to read The Silmarilion three times now and every time I end up giving up after about a chapter. That book really is some impenetrable s**t!  I’m re-reading it now for what must be the fifth time, and it is definitely my favourite work by Tolkien. I admit I was taken aback, the first time around, by it being such a different beast. It’s not a novel, there is no main set of characters to follow, there is basically no dialog and the whole thing is closer to Virgil or the Bible than to Lord of the Rings (at least in its form). Just like the Bible, though, it gets better with each re-reading, because we get more familiar with the text and make more connections. Your comparing the Silmarillion to a history book is spot on, for that's basically what it is. What made a big difference to me, on my third reading, was having Robert Foster’s Guide to Middle-Earth on hand. That way, if I forgot how Fingon was related to Amrod, I could find out immediately. The Atlas of Middle-Earth was also a big help, because Tolkien’s maps often do not include important things (like where exactly Angband is located in the north of Dorthonion). The Silmarillion is pure majesty. In the days when I had to tell bedtime stories I used to tell of the kinslaying and the crossing of Helcaraxe to my kids, or of the Nirnaed Arnoediad. “The battle of the uncounted tears”... what imaginative kid wouldn’t thrill to such a concept?
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Post by Jesse on Dec 18, 2017 15:10:29 GMT -5
My first question for this "new" all-purpose Tolkien thread is for those of you who have read the Silmarillion. How on Earth did you manage to read it? I devoured The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as a teenager and have re-read those books multiple times in the years since. I really do love those books and I know them really well, but I have tried to read The Silmarilion three times now and every time I end up giving up after about a chapter. That book really is some impenetrable s**t!  Weirdly it was reading The Silmarillion, then rereading the Hobbit and then reading the LOTR trilogy that allowed me to get into the movies. I've also since then read The Children of Húrin another manuscript finished by son Christopher Tolkien. I think for me it was the world building in The Silmarillion that allowed me to really wrap my head around the epic-ness of what was going on in the other books.
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Post by Jesse on Dec 18, 2017 15:35:39 GMT -5
Last night I watched the Extended Edition Blu-ray of The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) which is only the second time I've seen the film and honestly the first time I thoroughly enjoyed it. The Extended Edition Blu-ray set comes with an insane amount of additional discs much more content than I'm even interesting in watching. Fellowship itself is divided into two Blu-ray discs with a combined run time of over 3 hours 16 minutes. I found that divide much more palatable as this was a lot of content to sit though. Their are also three addition DVDs two of which are a two part documentary. That's just the first movie!
Rewatching this has me wondering about the possible upcoming Netflix series and what kind of stuff we will see that didn't make the movies. For example the Hobbits battle with Gríma Wormtongue who IIRC took over The Shire in the very last book and they had to come take it back. Tom Bombadil is also an interesting character I don't think even gets referenced in the films. IIRC there's a scene where he save the Hobbits from some Willow trees that were making them sleep or something like that. It's been awhile since I read it. Given Hollywood's propensity for prequels I was wondering if they might flesh out Sméagol's backstory and show us how he found and became corrupted by the ring.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 18, 2017 16:02:48 GMT -5
(...) Rewatching this has me wondering about the possible upcoming Netflix series and what kind of stuff we will see that didn't make the movies. For example the Hobbits battle with Gríma Wormtongue who IIRC took over The Shire in the very last book and they had to come take it back. (...) It was actually Saruman, with a much-abused Wormtongue in tow to use as his whipping dog. Wormtongue got even by murdering his master! The scouring of the Shire was set aside by Peter Jackson... and although it was an important part of the novel, I agree that it would have made the movie insanely too long!
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Post by berkley on Dec 18, 2017 17:17:31 GMT -5
The Silmarillion came out almost at the perfect time for me - just 2 years after I had first read the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings - so my interest in Tolkien was still near its peak and I was utterly fascinated with this behind the scenes glimpse of so much that had been referred to or merely hinted at in those books. I agree with RR and MRP that it's best read as a kind of reference or mythology text, like Robert Graves's The Greek Myths, rather than a novel or collection of short stories.
My own, related, question is one I've asked before: which of the later compilations of Tolkien material are essential. I think I've asked this before and was told that the Silmarillion really contains just about everything that's in the others, but I'm still curious enough that I might try some of them eventually, even if they're little more than re-tellings of the same stories.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 0:18:09 GMT -5
Perhaps we should get together and share a bottle of Galadriel wine or perhaps a few cups of Gandalf  as we discuss the Silmarillion around a blazing fire in a Hobbit hole.  -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 19, 2017 2:50:46 GMT -5
Sounds like a great idea.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 19, 2017 8:27:55 GMT -5
The Silmarillion came out almost at the perfect time for me - just 2 years after I had first read the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings - so my interest in Tolkien was still near its peak and I was utterly fascinated with this behind the scenes glimpse of so much that had been referred to or merely hinted at in those books. I agree with RR and MRP that it's best read as a kind of reference or mythology text, like Robert Graves's The Greek Myths, rather than a novel or collection of short stories. My own, related, question is one I've asked before: which of the later compilations of Tolkien material are essential. I think I've asked this before and was told that the Silmarillion really contains just about everything that's in the others, but I'm still curious enough that I might try some of them eventually, even if they're little more than re-tellings of the same stories. Personally, I thought the first two books in the series The Book of Lost Tales make for a nice complement to The Silmarillion. They cover events that are seen in the latter, but in an earlier and more expansive (as in "less tightened before publication") form. The names aren't exactly the same (Melko instead of Melkor) but I thought it was very enjoyable, and it increases the vision of Tolkien's work as proper mythology; after all, aren't there several slightly different versions of the Greek myths? The framing device about a mariner named Eriol who lands on Tol Eresseä and reaches the Cottage of Lost Play, inhabited by Gnomes (Elves), increases the mythical nature of the work. Eriol is told by his hosts of the events that occurred in Valinor, and since this is a second-hand retelling, discrepancies with the Simarillion can easily be accepted. It may be for hardcore Tolkien fans, but for those The Book of Lost Tales is a joy, not a chore. In Unfinished Tales most chapters are also worth one's while, as far as supporting material goes: I just would have done without a retelling of Turin Turanbar's story. (That one, epic and tragic as it is, is far from my favourite Tolkien tale... and it is told in The Silmarillion, In Unfinished Tales, and again in The Children of Hurin. That last book I would skip entirely.
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