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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 2, 2021 15:12:47 GMT -5
Some fans have speculated that the series is set in Valinor based on the image, claiming the image depicts the Two Trees in it. That city could be Tirion (although somehow imagined the hill it's built on to be higher) and the huge light-emitting trees fit the bill, but I would be surprised if any scene set in Valinor went beyond flashbacks. But who knows? I'm not going to subscribe to amazon tv, but if reviews are good I'll definitely be curious enough to buy the DVDs. If they still make DVDs in 2022 or 2023, that is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2021 15:25:07 GMT -5
Some fans have speculated that the series is set in Valinor based on the image, claiming the image depicts the Two Trees in it. That city could be Tirion (although somehow imagined the hill it's built on to be higher) and the huge light-emitting trees fit the bill, but I would be surprised if any scene set in Valinor went beyond flashbacks. But who knows? I'm not going to subscribe to amazon tv, but if reviews are good I'll definitely be curious enough to buy the DVDs. If they still make DVDs in 2022 or 2023, that is. We already have a Prime Account (we got it for the delivery, but also use Amazon Music, the TV, the free Twitch sub, and my wife uses the kindle unlimited, so for us it's more than just the TV and is worth it, but I wouldn't have it if it were just for the TV streaming alone. -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 2, 2021 16:30:44 GMT -5
The image looks very generic to me, in terms of fantasy films, but I kind of agree with RR that this could be Tirion. Not that the land of Valar is an area of Tolkien's legendarium that I'm particularly au fait with. Mind you, neither is the Second Age a period I'm terribly knowledgeable about.
I'll wait and see what this new Amazon show is like. I don't have the Amazon TV channel and nor would I get it just for this one thing. So I too will be getting the DVDs, if they even do them (I suspect they won't, in order to get more folks to subscribe).
I'm not particularly excited for this at the moment, but it could potentially be great, I suppose. I worry that it's being made to be the next Game Of Thrones, with all the bone-crunching, "18 cert" gore and adult sex scenes that that show had. Neither of which seem very Tolkien-esque to me. Not that I mind swashbuckling action and some slicing swordplay, obviously, but you know what I mean.
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Post by berkley on Aug 3, 2021 22:28:17 GMT -5
I'm sceptical but I'm sure I'll give it a look. I don't think there's much to be judged from the picture - stills from movies or tv don't always capture what it'll look like or feel like when watching the thing as it unfolds. There's nothing especially or obviously bad about it that leaps to the eye, so that's something.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 4, 2021 19:31:07 GMT -5
The image looks very generic to me, in terms of fantasy films, but I kind of agree with RR that this could be Tirion. Not that the land of Valar is an area of Tolkien's legendarium that I'm particularly au fait with. Mind you, neither is the Second Age a period I'm terribly knowledgeable about. I'll wait and see what this new Amazon show is like. I don't have the Amazon TV channel and nor would I get it just for this one thing. So I too will be getting the DVDs, if they even do them (I suspect they won't, in order to get more folks to subscribe). I'm not particularly excited for this at the moment, but it could potentially be great, I suppose. I worry that it's being made to be the next Game Of Thrones, with all the bone-crunching, "18 cert" gore and adult sex scenes that that show had. Neither of which seem very Tolkien-esque to me. Not that I mind swashbuckling action and some slicing swordplay, obviously, but you know what I mean. Nothing I've seen from Amazon has gone that route so far, but I suppose that doesn't mean they won't. And they do put out DVD's of their series, it just takes much longer than a traditional release.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 27, 2021 11:10:08 GMT -5
Re-reading the chapter The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, I realized how much scenes from the Peter Jackson movie had replaced my memories of the book. The balrog in the film (or in the Baks=hi one, for that matter) is quite different from the one in the novel, though closer to what I recall from The Silmarillion.
Durin's Bane strikes me as being much closer to the Christian image of a fallen angel (what balrogs are, in a sense) than the monster on steroids we saw in the movie. He's described as having the shape of a man, shrouded in a billowing darkness; not described as having wings either, although at one point darkness spreads from him like wings. No fire bursting spectacularly from his body; his nostrils do emit flames in one paragraph, but his being draped in flames at one point is apparently caused by his jumping through the fire coming from a chasm.
More importantly, he's a powerful sorcerer more than a hulking beast. Gandalf tries to block the exit from the chamber of Mazarbul with mighty spells, and the balrog uses counter spells strong enough to send Gandalf reeling.
I really enjoy these little re-discoveries.
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Post by berkley on Aug 27, 2021 16:42:58 GMT -5
Re-reading the chapter The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, I realized how much scenes from the Peter Jackson movie had replaced my memories of the book. The balrog in the film (or in the Baks=hi one, for that matter) is quite different from the one in the novel, though closer to what I recall from The Silmarillion. Durin's Bane strikes me as being much closer to the Christian image of a fallen angel (what balrogs are, in a sense) than the monster on steroids we saw in the movie. He's described as having the shape of a man, shrouded in a billowing darkness; not described as having wings either, although at one point darkness spreads from him like wings. No fire bursting spectacularly from his body; his nostrils do emit flames in one paragraph, but his being draped in flames at one point is apparently caused by his jumping through the fire coming from a chasm. More importantly, he's a powerful sorcerer more than a hulking beast. Gandalf tries to block the exit from the chamber of Mazarbul with mighty spells, and the balrog uses counter spells strong enough to send Gandalf reeling. I really enjoy these little re-discoveries.
I remember thinking that Jackson dropped the ball with this sequence in the film because for me he never managed to get across the feeling of dread that the Balrog inspired even amongst its supposed allies. I found this a very powerful scene in the book, when Tolkien describes how a sort of awed hush fell over the host of Orcs, etc that had been pursuing gandalf and his friends. The movie sequence really didn't impress me with anything like the same feeling.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 27, 2021 17:38:44 GMT -5
Re-reading the chapter The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, I realized how much scenes from the Peter Jackson movie had replaced my memories of the book. The balrog in the film (or in the Baks=hi one, for that matter) is quite different from the one in the novel, though closer to what I recall from The Silmarillion. Durin's Bane strikes me as being much closer to the Christian image of a fallen angel (what balrogs are, in a sense) than the monster on steroids we saw in the movie. He's described as having the shape of a man, shrouded in a billowing darkness; not described as having wings either, although at one point darkness spreads from him like wings. No fire bursting spectacularly from his body; his nostrils do emit flames in one paragraph, but his being draped in flames at one point is apparently caused by his jumping through the fire coming from a chasm. More importantly, he's a powerful sorcerer more than a hulking beast. Gandalf tries to block the exit from the chamber of Mazarbul with mighty spells, and the balrog uses counter spells strong enough to send Gandalf reeling. I really enjoy these little re-discoveries.
I remember thinking that Jackson dropped the ball with this sequence in the film because for me he never managed to get across the feeling of dread that the Balrog inspired even amongst its supposed allies. I found this a very powerful scene in the book, when Tolkien describes how a sort of awed hush fell over the host of Orcs, etc that had been pursuing gandalf and his friends. The movie sequence really didn't impress me with anything like the same feeling.
Yes, absolutely! The movies' orcs just scatter as if the balrog was some uncontrollable force of nature, like a wild bear let loose. In the novel, their sense of awe is palpable. I think Jackson wanted to emphasize the raw power of the balrog, while Tolkien showed his great antiquity and quasi-divine status (for all that the balrog is sort of a fallen angel).
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 27, 2021 17:50:32 GMT -5
He's described as having the shape of a man, shrouded in a billowing darkness; not described as having wings either, although at one point darkness spreads from him like wings. That's not strictly true. yes, Tolkien says of the Balrog, "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings", but shortly afterwards he describes the beast as drawing "itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall." That last sentence would seem definitive on the subject of whether Balrogs do or do not have wings, if it weren't for the earlier metaphorical reference to the creature's shadow seeming like wings. Myself, I have definitely always imagined the Balrog as having wings. However, that's almost certainly entirely down to the version of the creature seen in Bakshi's 1978 animated LOTRs and the lead minature from Middle-earth Role-playing both having wings. I think pretty much every Tolkien illustrator has given the creature wings too, so I think Peter Jackson definitely made the right choice giving it wings in his film. Still, Tolkien's text is kinda contradictory and pretty open to interpretation. I mean, if the Balrog does have wings -- as it's so often depicted with -- why didn't it simply fly back out of the chasm of Khazad-dûm after it fell?
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Post by berkley on Aug 27, 2021 20:40:24 GMT -5
Perhaps the best solution, given the ambiguity of Tolkien's description, would have been to use this vagueness as an advantage and not to show too much or too clearly what the Balrog looked like: a vast shadow that sometimes seems to take the form of spreading wngs, some kind of "mystic" flame ... the unseen/unknown is often more frightening and awe-inspiring than the defined, no matter how terrifying.
Speaking of "mystic flame", reminds me how disappointing the "mystic" effects were in the Doctor Strange movie - too bright and tinselly, to my mind. And looking at images of Jackson's Balrog, I fnd the flame too realistic, too earthly to achieve the effect I think is called for.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 28, 2021 14:15:56 GMT -5
Here's my attempt at "painting" a balrog back in 1978!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 28, 2021 18:41:57 GMT -5
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 28, 2021 21:14:23 GMT -5
That's not the adjective I would have used, but the kid I was thanks you!
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Post by berkley on Aug 29, 2021 0:31:45 GMT -5
I don't presume to place myself in the mental shoes of the young RRtist, but could it be that a justifiably confused idea of Tolkien's confusing talk about the Balrog's wings made itself felt in the shadows behind the Balrog?
Also, they make me wonder if the 1978 RR had been reading Lovecraft as well as Tlkien around that time, since they look more like tentacles than wings!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 29, 2021 10:14:14 GMT -5
I don't presume to place myself in the mental shoes of the young RRtist, but could it be that a justifiably confused idea of Tolkien's confusing talk about the Balrog's wings made itself felt in the shadows behind the Balrog? I honestly don't remember, but I'd say it's probably a combination of the concepts "spreading darkness" and "CAN'T DRAW!!!" I just took a gander at what the web said on the subject; I wasn't aware that the wings of the balrog (or lack thereof) was an old subject of discussion among Tolkien fans. Considering how the entire mythology kept evolving, maybe we'll never have a satisfactory definitive answer (as is the case, say, for a definitive Conan chronology).
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