Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,411 
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 31, 2017 21:48:16 GMT -5
-Even though Kylo Ren betrayed Snoke, I was glad to see Disney/Lflm. didn't do something unrealistic/stupid like make him turn to the good side. That would have been a cop-out, especially given that he killed his father in TFA - which to me makes the character beyond redemption. For my part, I think it would have been absolutely great and unexpected to have Ren have second thoughts on his convictions; a real bold move and a break from the obvious “Kylo Ren is the new Darth Vader” concept. His trying to find redemption after killing his own father would have been extremely moving, and a powerful moment: could his mother forgive him the ultimate transgression? It’s easy to forgive someone who committed a petty crime; it is when someone has done something truly horrendous that forgiveness is difficult. I liked Kylo Ren as the unpleasant emo kid with father issues and way too much power for his own good. As a villain, he’s just a second rate Darth Vader. As an individual trying to come to terms with what he’s done, he might have been interesting... but now we’ll have to wait for the next film to see if what’s done with him is just the obvious thing or something new. (Not holding my breath, however). |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 1, 2018 18:44:12 GMT -5
Rey being just another person, actually someone who came up from very humble circumstances, was one of the strongest points of the movie for me. I'd much rather The Force be egalitarian than confined to a particular bloodline. Let me add that I didn't find the humor jarring in any way. To the point that I actually have had to sit back and think about what the "humorous moments" were that everyone else is having problems with. Maybe I wasn't paying that good of attention. I can go either way on the Rey thing... it would have amused me to have the tie i to Clone Wars to have her be the granddaughter of Obi-Wan and the Queen of Mandalore, but I'm not heartbroken over it. I just wish they didn't make such a big deal out of it if that'll all it was... maybe this is a WWE-style 'too many people guessed our surprise so we have to change it' thing? There was actually a moment that I thought Rey was going to be Jaina from the EU really (Kylo's twin sister), especially with the 'force connection' thing... but ultimately I think its good they didn't go that route. Agree on the humor.. I didn't notice anything terrible.. the Porg were unnecessary, but I get logic so it was fine. |
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jan 2, 2018 5:29:02 GMT -5
Rey being just another person, actually someone who came up from very humble circumstances, was one of the strongest points of the movie for me. I'd much rather The Force be egalitarian than confined to a particular bloodline. Let me add that I didn't find the humor jarring in any way. To the point that I actually have had to sit back and think about what the "humorous moments" were that everyone else is having problems with. Maybe I wasn't paying that good of attention. The Hux/Poe telephone gag was pretty cringe-worthy IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Jan 2, 2018 23:43:51 GMT -5
After having read some more interviews with Rian Johnson, I'm convinced that his take on Rey is a retcon. J.J. Abrams wrote and directed TFA, and I don't think he intended them to be nobodies. It makes no sense to conceal their identities unless their identities matter. I'm convinced that he had different plans, and according to interviews, he gave Rian Johnson the leeway to take it in a different direction.
Now the interesting part is what will happen in Episode 9. Because Abrams is returning to the director's chair, and while Kylo's explanation of Rey's parentage seems to be the official one for now, at the same time there is enough wiggle room that Abrams could pull off a retcon of his own. I don't think this mystery is solved quite yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jan 3, 2018 18:15:21 GMT -5
Good thoughts all around! Throwing my three cents in:
1) It's really two movies.
a) There's a good movie about Rey discovering a disappointing father-figure in Luke, getting a whiff of training, and then failing to convert her would-be boyfriend Kylo Ren to her religion.
b) Then there's a bad movie featuring a plodding straight-line chase between an Imperial fleet and a couple of large Rebellion ships, a pointless side quest for Finn and his sidekick-turned-implausible-love-interest Rose, a pointless hidden plan by Holdo (who had clearly told the fueling techs to get the little ships ready for a mass evacuation, even while withholding this important information from the command staff because REASONS) which leads to a pointless mini-revolt by Poe, which ends as soon as Leia wakes up from her convenient coma.
We get tantalized with the movie that should have been. There's a great story about Luke (and Leia and Han?) trying to train up some new Jedi, and none of them can stop Ben/Kylo from going bad and blowing the whole thing to bits. There's a great Michael Corleone/"We Have to Talk About Kevin" story in there to be told, similar in theme to the downward arc of Anakin in Episodes 1-3 but not sucky like Episodes 1-3 were. I wish half of the movie had been in flashback, telling this story rather than just taunting us with a couple of scenes from a movie that will never be.
The obvious problem with doing that is that it leaves out Poe and Finn, which they really need not to do from a strategy perspective, since the whole point of this movie is that they're wisely trying to turn the plot away from Skywalkers and Solos to a new generation of unrelated heroes. OK, fine. But you have to come up with a story for Finn and Poe that's at least as interesting untold story of the failed Jedi Academy. This movie... didn't.
2) I would not have minded Leia's "Mary Poppins" moment if it were contextualized within any kind of larger discussion about her relations with the Force over the last forty years. There was a time when Yoda and Kenobi considered her a viable replacement for Luke. Has she really dropped the ball on that whole power set in the interim? Force power seems pretty useful in running a galactic Republic. It could have been as simple as some Jean Grey-style "Casually floating my coffee cup across the table to me" just to show that Leia has become a powerful person. But as it was, the Mary Poppins thing came out of nowhere and went nowhere; it was just a scene that existed to look cool without impacting the plot.
3) The humor was ugh. Poe's prank call was ugh. The Porgs should have been worked into the plot somehow instead of just being cute window dressing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Jan 3, 2018 23:59:43 GMT -5
2) I would not have minded Leia's "Mary Poppins" moment if it were contextualized within any kind of larger discussion about her relations with the Force over the last forty years. There was a time when Yoda and Kenobi considered her a viable replacement for Luke. Has she really dropped the ball on that whole power set in the interim? Force power seems pretty useful in running a galactic Republic. It could have been as simple as some Jean Grey-style "Casually floating my coffee cup across the table to me" just to show that Leia has become a powerful person. But as it was, the Mary Poppins thing came out of nowhere and went nowhere; it was just a scene that existed to look cool without impacting the plot. I actually didn't think it was that weird. I didn't interpret her use of the Force as a conscious, intentional act borne of training. I viewed it as her Force abilities kicking in on an instinctive level, like a survival reflex. To borrow an analogy from a different fictional universe, it's not unlike how mutants from the Marvel Universe often don't know they have abilities until they manifest under conditions of extreme stress. Besides, if Rey can pull off Jedi mind tricks and Force telekinesis without a lick of training just because her cells are packed with midicholorians (haha), then why couldn't a strongly-motivated Leia float herself back to the ship to escape death? |
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jan 4, 2018 0:29:55 GMT -5
2) I would not have minded Leia's "Mary Poppins" moment if it were contextualized within any kind of larger discussion about her relations with the Force over the last forty years. There was a time when Yoda and Kenobi considered her a viable replacement for Luke. Has she really dropped the ball on that whole power set in the interim? Force power seems pretty useful in running a galactic Republic. It could have been as simple as some Jean Grey-style "Casually floating my coffee cup across the table to me" just to show that Leia has become a powerful person. But as it was, the Mary Poppins thing came out of nowhere and went nowhere; it was just a scene that existed to look cool without impacting the plot. I actually didn't think it was that weird. I didn't interpret her use of the Force as a conscious, intentional act borne of training. I viewed it as her Force abilities kicking in on an instinctive level, like a survival reflex. To borrow an analogy from a different fictional universe, it's not unlike how mutants from the Marvel Universe often don't know they have abilities until they manifest under conditions of extreme stress. Besides, if Rey can pull off Jedi mind tricks and Force telekinesis without a lick of training just because her cells are packed with midicholorians (haha), then why couldn't a strongly-motivated Leia float herself back to the ship to escape death? I don't mind the thought that Leia could do what we saw. I just find it very unsatisfying storywise that she wouldn't have made any effort over the last forty years to develop the Force powers that she reputedly has, which have Yoda and Ben talking about her in the same breath as Luke. Luke himself says in Jedi that the Force runs strong in her. Would she neglect that gift despite the obvious benefits? It also would have given her character something interesting now that she's old and serious instead of young and sassy. |
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jan 4, 2018 5:23:31 GMT -5
She had a job in government and a family, she probably just not had the time to train as a Jedi next to that, because that seemed like a full-time commitment. Also Luke had Obi-Wan and Yoda to train him, Leia only had Luke who was still figuring out how to be a Jedi himself and who remembered Obi-Wan's warnings ("I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.") and Yoda initially refusing to train Luke because he was too old.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jan 4, 2018 6:43:48 GMT -5
She had a job in government and a family, she probably just not had the time to train as a Jedi next to that, because that seemed like a full-time commitment. Also Luke had Obi-Wan and Yoda to train him, Leia only had Luke who was still figuring out how to be a Jedi himself and who remembered Obi-Wan's warnings ("I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.") and Yoda initially refusing to train Luke because he was too old. "She has a family..." That's another thing they goofed IMHO. Leia and Han apparently waited twenty years to have their only child. There would have been time storywise for a whole other generation between Luke/Leia/Han and Kylo/Rey. (Poe seems a bit older.) It would have made for a more interesting dynamic if Kylo were Leia's grandson rather than son. |
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jan 4, 2018 7:54:26 GMT -5
There is 30 years between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I don't know how old Kylo is supposed to be (Adam Driver is in his mid 30s, but I assume Kylo is younger than that), but if Leia and Han waited 20 years, Kylo would be 10. So unlikely.
Luke and Leia are in their mid 50s during The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. If it was 10 years after Endor, Leia would be in her early 30s. Not that weird an age for a woman to become a mother for the first time, especially one with a busy career.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jan 4, 2018 8:10:00 GMT -5
There is 30 years between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I don't know how old Kylo is supposed to be (Adam Driver is in his mid 30s, but I assume Kylo is younger than that), but if Leia and Han waited 20 years, Kylo would be 10. So unlikely. Luke and Leia are in their mid 50s during The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. If it was 10 years after Endor, Leia would be in her early 30s. Not that weird an age for a woman to become a mother for the first time, especially one with a busy career. Time can be elastic in movies I guess! Kylo's character makes more sense as a 19 year old than a 35 year old, even without the "robbing the cradle" aspect. |
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jan 4, 2018 8:38:48 GMT -5
There is 30 years between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I don't know how old Kylo is supposed to be (Adam Driver is in his mid 30s, but I assume Kylo is younger than that), but if Leia and Han waited 20 years, Kylo would be 10. So unlikely. Luke and Leia are in their mid 50s during The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. If it was 10 years after Endor, Leia would be in her early 30s. Not that weird an age for a woman to become a mother for the first time, especially one with a busy career. Time can be elastic in movies I guess! Kylo's character makes more sense as a 19 year old than a 35 year old, even without the "robbing the cradle" aspect. I'd put Kylo at early 20s. So the timeline would be: Star Wars: Luke and therefore also Leia are 19 years old. Return of the Jedi: Leia is 23 years old (3 year between Star Wars and Empire Strike Back, one year between Empire and Return of the Jedi) Return of the Jedi+10 years: Leia is busy with being part of restoring the Republic, negotiating with various planet, probably taken responsibility for finding a home for any Alderaan refugees, still being their princess. Gives birth to Ben at age ~33. A Force Awakens: Leia is 53, Ben/Kylo is ~20 years old. Fake edit: I just googled it, Kylo Ren apparently is 29 years old during The Last Jedi. One of the novels has Ben being born shortly after the Battle of Jakku, which took place a year after Return of the Jedi. I'd have moved that up a bit (I'd think that wrapping up the remnants of the old Empire would take more than 1 year), but that is apparently the current canon. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 4, 2018 10:47:38 GMT -5
There is 30 years between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I don't know how old Kylo is supposed to be (Adam Driver is in his mid 30s, but I assume Kylo is younger than that), but if Leia and Han waited 20 years, Kylo would be 10. So unlikely. Luke and Leia are in their mid 50s during The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. If it was 10 years after Endor, Leia would be in her early 30s. Not that weird an age for a woman to become a mother for the first time, especially one with a busy career. The official timeline currently puts Force Awakens 34 years after the Battle of Yavin (which they use as the 0 year)... The Clone Wars cartoon end 19 BBY (before Battle of Yavin), So that mean Leia, in universe was 18-19 during a New Hope, which doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but is plausible. (It kinda makes Han too old for her, but I digress). RoTJ is 4 years after, and the Chuck Wendig books (where Leia is pregnant) 5 years after.. so that means Kylo is 28-29. I suppose if you push it that could mean Han and Leia could have grandchildren old enough to be signifigant characters, but they'd more likely be smallish children. I haven't read everything yet, so I'm not sure about the new characters.. Finn is depicted as having been a Stormtrooper for a while, so he should be at least in his early 20s(Wookiepedia says 23). My impression is Poe is around the same age as "Snap" in the comic, and he's in his mid-30s for Force Awakens, so that'd be a logical guess, but there has been any time notes in the comic that I recall. Wookiepedia lists him as 36, but I don't know where from. |
|
|
|
Post by Warmonger on Jan 4, 2018 11:45:31 GMT -5
Haven’t seen it mentioned yet (or maybe I glossed over it), but when Yoda shows up, why the hell is he acting like crazy Yoda that was testing Luke when he first lands on Dagobah in ESB?
Not a major complaint, but it was still pretty goofy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Jan 4, 2018 12:32:53 GMT -5
There is 30 years between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens. I don't know how old Kylo is supposed to be (Adam Driver is in his mid 30s, but I assume Kylo is younger than that), but if Leia and Han waited 20 years, Kylo would be 10. So unlikely. Luke and Leia are in their mid 50s during The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. If it was 10 years after Endor, Leia would be in her early 30s. Not that weird an age for a woman to become a mother for the first time, especially one with a busy career. The official timeline currently puts Force Awakens 34 years after the Battle of Yavin (which they use as the 0 year)... The Clone Wars cartoon end 19 BBY (before Battle of Yavin), So that mean Leia, in universe was 18-19 during a New Hope, which doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but is plausible. (It kinda makes Han too old for her, but I digress). RoTJ is 4 years after, and the Chuck Wendig books (where Leia is pregnant) 5 years after.. so that means Kylo is 28-29. I suppose if you push it that could mean Han and Leia could have grandchildren old enough to be signifigant characters, but they'd more likely be smallish children. I think Leia's age is fine. If Padme can be the queen of Naboo while she's a teenager, then Leia can be Princess and Senator of Alderaan at 18. Assuming Han is close to Harrison's Ford's real age, he'd be a bit old for her... but hey, even by our standards she's of legal age, so it wouldn't be outrageous. Besides which, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher had an actual relationship while filming Episode 4, so yeah... I would have guessed Kylo to be a bit younger, but him being around 30 is fine too. If you're going by contemporary cultural standards, modern 30 year olds are considered to be barely out of adolescence, so Kylo's personality at least meshes with what modern audiences would expect a 30 year old to act like. ;-) |
|
