Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,201 
|
Post by Confessor on Feb 12, 2018 0:29:22 GMT -5
I just noticed Confessor's review, which makes me sad.. not because he's wrong, but because the new movies really let him down. Hey, thanks. Without wanting to feel all sorry for myself, I do feel a bit disenfranchised or alienated by TFA and TLJ. Those films ain't my Star Wars. We seem to be mostly in agreement about TLJ, but a couple of your points that I just wanted to respond to are these.... Luke's characterization made total sense to me. Obi-Wan abandoned the world after failing with Anakin... sure he was supposedly protecting Luke, but that was clearly an excuse. We don't ever exactly find out why Yoda went into hiding, but he clearly did. Luke suffered a very similar failure as Obi-Wan did, and was trained by him, and had a special connection to him.. why wouldn't he react similarly? I don't know that Obi-Wan did "abandon the world" after failing with Anakin. He naturally blamed himself for Anakin's fall to the dark side, but a more pressing issue was that he had to look after the "last hope" for the Jedi (I.e. Luke), and escape from the Empire's Jedi purge. Living as an old hermit on Tatooine was just Kenobi's cover story -- he wasn't actually a real hermit. He was just playing one while he kept an eye on Luke. Luke becoming an embittered recluse, bogged down in regret and wanting to die, is very, very different to what Obi-Wan did, I think. As far as the momentary thought of him killing Kylo.. I took his explanation to Rey at face value.. it was a fleeting thought that, as a parent, I can appreciate at. Every so often, someone you're supposed to be raising does something momumentally stupid, and you just want to throttle them. Sure, we've all felt that angering frustration with a loved one. But when you have a fleeting moment of angry frustration with your child, you don't actually put your hands around their neck while they sleep (I hope!)  Luke pulls out a deadly weapon and stands over the sleeping Ben Solo, fully considering butchering him while he slumbers. That feels so wrong for Luke. That's without mentioning the inference in the film that Luke also murdered the rest of his Jedi Academy (unless I'm wrong about that). Sure, Rogue One is worlds better, but don't give up totally on Star Wars.. there's still good stuff out there, you just have to see them from a certain point of view. "A certain point of view?!" Ha, ha...thanks for the advice ghostly Obi-Wan. I certainly hope there's better to come. One thing's for sure, I won't be seeing the Han Solo movie or Episode IX at the cinema. The former looks like it's gonna be a car crash and, with the latter, I'm just not invested enough in Rey, Finn and Poe as characters to bother paying £15 to see what happens to them. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 12, 2018 0:49:46 GMT -5
My impression was that Kylo killed the school (perhaps recruiting those he could... it's been heavily speculated that's who the 'knights of Ren' are).. so unless you consider Luke 'killed' them because he was the catalyst of Kylo flipping out, he didn't actually do it.
I get what your saying about actually turning on the light saber.. that's a more extreme thing that it should be.. but, when I get frustrated with my kids, there's no chance they're going to follow in the footsteps of a galactic killing machine.
And I DO think Kenobi was hiding... it been made to seem that way more so now. This is EU stuff again, but it was stated that he had set up a warning to the Jedi that were off world when Order 66 hit, and seemingly he never tried to see who might have survived. There were at least 2 that did (one being Asoka, which is a pretty important person). Now, you can hate her ( I don't, but I know that's a minority opinion) but ol' Ben was personally acquainted with her, and unless you believe that he thought her a traitor (which makes no sense), he basically just gave up to babysit Luke, when he was totally safe and anonymous. In fact, you could very easily argue his presence made it less likely he would stay a secret... it would have made WAY more sense for him to hang with Yoda on Dagobah and show up to do training later.
Kanan's story also makes it very clear that there were still plenty of force sensitive kids out there, as he tries to help a couple of them.. so there's no particular reason Obi-Wan couldn't have tried to recruit others while waiting for Luke to grow up if he was inclined to do so... he just didn't.
Clearly, all that is post-movie add ons, but Disney is working hard to make it all co-ordinate, so you really have to take it all into account, IMO.
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,413
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 12, 2018 6:58:16 GMT -5
What was the deal with the secret map leading to Luke’s island?
Either he intended to remain a recluse and wanted to be left alone (leaving no address where to reach him) or he would have just asked his sister to respect his provacy until sorely needed.
I can’t imagine the circumstances that would have led to the creation of a fragmented enigmatic map showing where he was hiding.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 12, 2018 8:11:46 GMT -5
What was the deal with the secret map leading to Luke’s island? Either he intended to remain a recluse and wanted to be left alone (leaving no address where to reach him) or he would have just asked his sister to respect his provacy until sorely needed. I can’t imagine the circumstances that would have led to the creation of a fragmented enigmatic map showing where he was hiding. Yeah, I agree. I THINK the idea is that he was at the secret jedi library, and the 'map' was more the Resistance sorting through legends and rumors as to where it was. But it's not clear at all. The dude Poe has to find (whose name escapes me at the moment) has a story in Poe's comic where he gets caught stealing something from a Jedi cache. |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,201
|
Post by Confessor on Feb 12, 2018 9:04:33 GMT -5
My impression was that Kylo killed the school (perhaps recruiting those he could... it's been heavily speculated that's who the 'knights of Ren' are).. so unless you consider Luke 'killed' them because he was the catalyst of Kylo flipping out, he didn't actually do it. You could well be right. That's not the inference that I got from the film, but I'm prepared to say I might be mistaken. And I DO think Kenobi was hiding... it been made to seem that way more so now. This is EU stuff again, but it was stated that he had set up a warning to the Jedi that were off world when Order 66 hit, and seemingly he never tried to see who might have survived. There were at least 2 that did (one being Asoka, which is a pretty important person). Now, you can hate her ( I don't, but I know that's a minority opinion) but ol' Ben was personally acquainted with her, and unless you believe that he thought her a traitor (which makes no sense), he basically just gave up to babysit Luke, when he was totally safe and anonymous. In fact, you could very easily argue his presence made it less likely he would stay a secret... it would have made WAY more sense for him to hang with Yoda on Dagobah and show up to do training later. Oh, Obi-Wan was definitely hiding from Vader and the rest of the Empire. Absolutely. But he hid close to where he had placed the infant Luke, in order that he could protect him -- and not just from the Empire, but from other every day dangers on Tatooine, such as the Sand People. Remember, we learn in the ESB that Yoda has been watching Luke as he grew up via the Force, so it makes sense that Obi-Wan was doing the same, but was also close enough that he could be of some practical help if Luke was in danger. It's stated in the Star Wars novelization that Kenobi used to regularly call at the Lars' homestead, usually to be chased off by Uncle Owen. Hiding from the Emperor's Order 66 and keeping an eye on the last great hope for the galaxy is not the same as running off to sulk in self-regret, turning your back on the whole galaxy and just waiting to die, as Luke did. Kanan's story also makes it very clear that there were still plenty of force sensitive kids out there, as he tries to help a couple of them.. so there's no particular reason Obi-Wan couldn't have tried to recruit others while waiting for Luke to grow up if he was inclined to do so... he just didn't. Clearly, all that is post-movie add ons, but Disney is working hard to make it all co-ordinate, so you really have to take it all into account, IMO. I have a healthy disregard for EU stuff these days, as far as it being relevant to discussions of SW continuity -- I've seen too much of it periodically thrown out and rendered non-canon to regard it in any other way. As for Disney working hard to make it all fit...ha! They could even keep tabs on when Poe and Rey had first met between TFA and TLJ, as I noted in my review. |
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Feb 12, 2018 9:19:39 GMT -5
The Last Jedi has an excellent thematic premise: The franchise cannot survive telling and retelling the story of the Skywalkers. It has to move on. However, I would argue that the best way to sell that point is simply to tell a good Star Wars story that doesn't revolve around Skywalkers (or Skywalker stand-ins who are orphans from desert planets who seek out the last Jedi master to train with lightsabers and enter Dark Side caves.) Rogue One did this well. It's a Star Wars story that doesn't depend on Skywalkers, and Darth Vader's role is simply super-villain. We'll see where the upcoming Han Solo film goes.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 12, 2018 23:02:20 GMT -5
Hiding from the Emperor's Order 66 and keeping an eye on the last great hope for the galaxy is not the same as running off to sulk in self-regret, turning your back on the whole galaxy and just waiting to die, as Luke did. True, but one could also argue Luke's personal failure was more signifigant... Obi-Wan had a 'last hope' in Luke, and he was far from personally responsible for order 66. Luke failed as the last hope of the Jedi order..AS WELL AS producing a Sith Lord. Granted Kylo isn't nearly as evil or powerful as Vader, but still... I have a healthy disregard for EU stuff these days, as far as it being relevant to discussions of SW continuity -- I've seen too much of it periodically thrown out and rendered non-canon to regard it in any other way. As for Disney working hard to make it all fit...ha! They could even keep tabs on when Poe and Rey had first met between TFA and TLJ, as I noted in my review. Yeah, I hear you.. but really the think they scrapped was the post ROTJ EU stuff... the pre-trilogy stuff hasn't been addressed, and probably doesn't need to be. That's not an era that seems to be of any interest. And they took some bits and retro fit them in... they could still well use some of the New JEdi Order stuff slightly modified in the future, mostly that just had to get rid of Chewie's death and Jaina. Incidently, I still am rooting for them to switch gears and making Rey into Jaina (that is, Kylo's twin). Until I actually meet Rey's parents on camera, that's who she is in my head |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 0:05:37 GMT -5
What was the deal with the secret map leading to Luke’s island? Either he intended to remain a recluse and wanted to be left alone (leaving no address where to reach him) or he would have just asked his sister to respect his provacy until sorely needed. I can’t imagine the circumstances that would have led to the creation of a fragmented enigmatic map showing where he was hiding. The map is the location of the first Jedi temple on Ach-To,. Han says that “the people who knew him best thought he went looking for the First Jedi Temple”. The map leads to Luke only in so far as that’s where he is. |
|
|
|
Post by Randle-El on Feb 13, 2018 11:20:15 GMT -5
Regarding Yoda and Obi-Wan -- I never understood Obi-Wan and Yoda's exiles on their respective planets as their giving up and hiding from the galaxy's problems. They had just tried and failed to defeat the Emperor. Their entire order had been slaughtered, the government and military had been turned against them, and they had been officially branded as outlaws. At this point, there's no way they can openly challenge the Emperor, so I think they took a page from Palpatine's playbook and decided to play the long game by taking the twins and going into stealth mode.
The current Star Wars series from Marvel Comics is set between Episodes IV and V (and is considered canon), but there have been a few issues that tell the story of what Obi-Wan was doing on Tatooine between Episodes III and IV. Among other things, Obi-Wan and Uncle Owen were apparently at odds over what "protecting" Luke meant, with Owen preferring Luke to keep a low profile and staying out of anything remotely dangerous. Obi-Wan apparently wanted to train Luke in Jedi ways, but was forbidden from doing so by Owen, so he basically kept watch over the Lars homestead, sneaking around here and there to dispatch of Jabba's lackeys or the occasional band of Sandpeople that got too close to Luke.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 13, 2018 16:15:05 GMT -5
Yeah, true.. but why not try to save some force-sensitve kids? Or look for survivors? seems like someone should have been doing that.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Feb 13, 2018 18:50:27 GMT -5
Yeah, true.. but why not try to save some force-sensitve kids? Or look for survivors? seems like someone should have been doing that. ooh! How about a series where Yoda runs around pretending to gather force sensitives for the Empire, but really he's sending them to a safe place where they can live and maybe train in peace? We could call the series X-Y! |
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,413
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 13, 2018 19:10:25 GMT -5
What was the deal with the secret map leading to Luke’s island? Either he intended to remain a recluse and wanted to be left alone (leaving no address where to reach him) or he would have just asked his sister to respect his provacy until sorely needed. I can’t imagine the circumstances that would have led to the creation of a fragmented enigmatic map showing where he was hiding. The map is the location of the first Jedi temple on Ach-To,. Han says that “the people who knew him best thought he went looking for the First Jedi Temple”. The map leads to Luke only in so far as that’s where he is. Good point; thanks! The lost map might indeed have had nothing to do with Luke, and it's only because people thought the man could be found at the temple that "the map to the temple" became "the map to find Luke" in the eyes of his friends and Kylo Ren. |
|
|
|
Post by String on Feb 13, 2018 19:51:46 GMT -5
I have a healthy disregard for EU stuff these days, as far as it being relevant to discussions of SW continuity -- I've seen too much of it periodically thrown out and rendered non-canon to regard it in any other way. As for Disney working hard to make it all fit...ha! They could even keep tabs on when Poe and Rey had first met between TFA and TLJ, as I noted in my review. But what about when they apparently cherry-pick certain elements from the EU for these new stories and films instead? For me, Kylo Ren bears far too many base similarities to Jacen Solo. Unlike with Ren though, Jacen's overall journey of growth as a Jedi, even his descent to the dark side, was far more dramatic and entertaining. Also, as with Ren, where we have vague accusations of his early leanings towards a dark path with nary a hint of what he has actually done or said to cause such a perception, Jacen suffers quite a few traumatic events along the way that lead to his fall, from his ordeal in the Vong war to the fate of his younger brother. Jacen is a more complete character to me whereas Ren feels more like a pale incomplete shadow of him. Even when Filoni brought Thrawn into Rebels, I raised an eyebrow because now you have to wonder what they will 'accept' next. (Although to their credit, they've used Thrawn rather well there). For example, the EU has already given a possible reason behind the 'cloaking device' line/existence. In Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, he introduces a type of cloaking device that would fit in reasonably well with how SW tech has been shown to work, based on what the cloaking device actually does (Hint: it's not like the Trek version). But about your general review, I agree with most, if not all of your points. However, there is one instance in this film that I found curious. In the beginning, Rose's sister, on the last bomber craft, her last action in releasing the bombs, to me it seemed almost like she called upon the Force in some manner to achieve what she did with the switch. Maybe I'm imagining it, but the shots of her, the musical score at that moment, how that pendant seemed like a type of talisman, it evoked that feeling, that everyone is connected to this all-powerful Force (even if you've never held a lightsaber). This would also seem to fit within the exploration of the Force being currently done in Rebels and with Donnie Yu's character's beliefs/actions in Rogue One. Lastly, I don't think you mentioned specifically in your review, but given how you dismissed the Canto Blight scenes, I take it you also found it highly implausible that in looking for the ONE slicer in the whole galaxy who could do the job they needed, they found the ONLY OTHER slicer in the whole galaxy who could do it instead! |
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,201
|
Post by Confessor on Feb 13, 2018 21:05:07 GMT -5
I have a healthy disregard for EU stuff these days, as far as it being relevant to discussions of SW continuity -- I've seen too much of it periodically thrown out and rendered non-canon to regard it in any other way. As for Disney working hard to make it all fit...ha! They could even keep tabs on when Poe and Rey had first met between TFA and TLJ, as I noted in my review. But what about when they apparently cherry-pick certain elements from the EU for these new stories and films instead? Well, yeah...that too. But different pieces of prior EU material have always been picked and then dragged kicking and screaming into "currently" accepted continuity. For example, Dark Horse and West End Games took certain parts of the old Marvel Comics continuity -- Shira Brie/Lumiya, for example -- while jettisoning much of the rest of it. As you say, it's like Thrawn being brought into Rebels, and yet the three Timothy Zahn novels that he originated from are firmly labeled as "Legends" by Disney. I mean, yeah, that's kind of understandable, since the Zahn trilogy covers the post-ROTJ timeline that Disney are busy exploring currently (although the Zahn novels are not as far into the post-ROTJ future as TFA or TLJ). But still, its kinda weird to have Thrawn being a canon character, while arguably his most famous appearances aren't. It's just Disney trying to have their cake and eat it really, much like Dark Horse did before them. Lastly, I don't think you mentioned specifically in your review, but given how you dismissed the Canto Blight scenes, I take it you also found it highly implausible that in looking for the ONE slicer in the whole galaxy who could do the job they needed, they found the ONLY OTHER slicer in the whole galaxy who could do it instead! Err...yes. Definitely. I couldn't go into every flaw that I found in the movie or my post would've been twice the length! There are lots and lots of problems with The Last Jedi. But about your general review, I agree with most, if not all of your points. That's fair enough. It's only my opinion after all. Star Wars is such a hugely popular franchise that it inevitably means very different things to different people. Some people just want dazzling visual spectacle from it and, as long as they get that, they couldn't give too hoots about anything else. I saw Slam_Bradley posted in another thread earlier (might've been the Meanwhile thread) that, although he could see some of The Last Jedi's flaws, he's not massively invested in the Star Wars saga, and so all he wants from a SW movie is entertainment. As long as he's entertained, that's good enough. Again, that's a totally fair enough way to look at it. It won't come as any surprise to you, I'm sure, that I look for much, much more in a Star Wars film. SW matters to me a great deal as a saga, not least for its characters and its philosophical heart. I felt that The last Jedi was a very badly made work of cinema, but on top of that, it was also a very poorly made Star Wars movie. That bugs me a lot more than it does many other people, and that's totally fair enough. Many folks would no doubt even disagree with my basic premise that it was a poorly made film, from a technical point of view. With my review, like any other, you have to remember that opinions are like arseholes: everybody's got one!  |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 13, 2018 21:42:14 GMT -5
I told the whole 'best slicer in the galaxy' thing as simple hyperbole. Also, as things turned out, we have no idea if the guy they did find was good, or even a slicer at all... perhaps he sold them out and the rest of all part of the plan.
|
|
Luke pulls out a deadly weapon and stands over the sleeping Ben Solo, fully considering butchering him while he slumbers. That feels so wrong for Luke.
