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Post by chaykinstevens on Jan 29, 2018 13:27:21 GMT -5
Grant Morrison got in trouble after a poem in 'Zenith' was lifted wholesale from some horror writer - forget which one - and Zenith himself closely resembles Milligan's character Paradax. Morrison was also accused by Michael Moorcock of theft after his Gideon Stargrave character was clearly based on Jerry Cornelius. I think Paradax and Zenith were both designed by Brendan McCarthy. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 29, 2018 13:41:14 GMT -5
Grant Morrison got in trouble after a poem in 'Zenith' was lifted wholesale from some horror writer - forget which one - and Zenith himself closely resembles Milligan's character Paradax. Morrison was also accused by Michael Moorcock of theft after his Gideon Stargrave character was clearly based on Jerry Cornelius. Morrison was pretty open about his Jerry Cornelius obsession, dressing like the character for a period of time (in his youth). Morrison seems to court this kind of stuff, while calling kettles black. He made noise, back in the late 80s/early 90s, about Moore lifting material from Robert Mayer's Superfolks. There is a bit in his "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' in his depiction of Mxyzptlk and Demoniac was sort of lifted for his Twilight proposal. Moorcock's issue with Morrison seems to be two-fold. First he contends that Morrison "pinched" stuff from him wholesale rather than springboarding from Moorcock's ideas, which Moorcock doesn't have a problem with. Second Moorcock feels that Morrison was very late in acknowledging his influence, having initially credited the source for Gideon Stargrave as J. G. Ballard and William Burroughs and specifically saying it wasn't Moorcock...which was clearly horse-hocky. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 29, 2018 14:33:34 GMT -5
..or Marvel just happening to publish a team of "misfit" heroes led by a man in wheelchair after The Doom Patrol's debut? I've always thought Drake/Haney/Premiani's Doom Patrol were the victims of Marvel's sticky fingers. So did Arnold Drake. From the DC Wiki, among other sites: According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt: "...I've become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff's office, it would've been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months." I'd like to find the original source of this quote from Drake. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 29, 2018 14:33:58 GMT -5
I went to college with a guy who worked in comics for awhile, including a stint in the Marvel Bullpen, before changing gears professionally. During this time he developed a series pitch, which he showed to a pro (who will go nameless) that was mentoring him. The pro stole the idea and put out his own series based on it.
Not quite what the topic is about, but it immediately came to mind when I saw this thread.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 29, 2018 14:40:52 GMT -5
I went to college with a guy who worked in comics for awhile, including a stint in the Marvel Bullpen, before changing gears professionally. During this time he developed a series pitch, which he showed to a pro (who will go nameless) that was mentoring him. The pro stole the idea and put out his own series based on it. Not quite what the topic is about, but it immediately came to mind when I saw this thread. Was the series a success? |
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 29, 2018 14:56:50 GMT -5
..or Marvel just happening to publish a team of "misfit" heroes led by a man in wheelchair after The Doom Patrol's debut? I've always thought Drake/Haney/Premiani's Doom Patrol were the victims of Marvel's sticky fingers. So did Arnold Drake. From the DC Wiki, among other sites: According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt: "...I've become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff's office, it would've been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months." I'd like to find the original source of this quote from Drake. As I've pointed out before, the idea that the public "hates and fears mutants" didn't crop up until a few issues into the X-Men run. Initially, the only major similarity was just between Xavier and Caulder, and I can accept that as a coincidence. The social outcast aspect, though...well, I never thought Stan "sold" that very convincingly, and I do have to wonder about the circumstances of injecting that into the concept. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 29, 2018 14:57:51 GMT -5
..or Marvel just happening to publish a team of "misfit" heroes led by a man in wheelchair after The Doom Patrol's debut? I've always thought Drake/Haney/Premiani's Doom Patrol were the victims of Marvel's sticky fingers. So did Arnold Drake. From the DC Wiki, among other sites: According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt: "...I've become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff's office, it would've been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months." I'd like to find the original source of this quote from Drake. Yeah, I don't buy it. I don't think any comics historians buy it. (A) There were only two months difference between when the books hit the stands, (B) What possible reason would Stan have to copy an unproven and not-yet-commercially successful formula? (C) The X-men were a fairly obvious amalgamation of Stan's own best selling titles - The X-men and the Fantastic Four. The egghead, the reverse human torch, the girl. And, hey, the Iron Man-esque Angel as well. Combine that with teenage superhero/Spider-man and $$$$$$. (D) And weren't really "reluctant" super-heroes at all. The "world that hates and fears them" thing wasn't played up at all until the Sentinels story, more than two years after the X-men debuted. The uncomfortable outsider quality of the Doom Patrol - the thing that really defined the book - didn't show up in the X-men 'till years later. They were both not-quite-traditional superteams led by a guy in a wheelchair, but they weren't similar in tone at all. (Basically the Doom Patrol had a theme and a point of view, and the X-men just felt like generic Marvel product.) (E) Lee and Kirby didn't really borrow current ideas from another company. Fantastic Four # 1 was influenced by JLA, but I can only think of one example after that that could have been influenced by DC. (The Phantom Eagle miiiiight have been a response to Enemy Ace.) Sure, the early Thor had lots of Superman elements in it, but it wasn't Weissinger's continuity heavy 1962 Superman. It was the simpler, 1946-ish Lois Lane love triangle Superman. I know this is strange considering that Marvel spent most of the '50s blatantly ripping off Dell and EC and basically every other major company, but once the '60s hit they didn't really steal ideas from other companies outside of obvious genre signifiers (Let's do some romance books! Let's do a war book!) (F) Arnold Drake has never been shy stating that the Doom Patrol used elements from the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four. So in the extremely, unlikely (to my eyes impossible) event that Stan said "A guy in a wheelchair with a superhero team? That is a 100% sure-fire money maker idea that I must steal! So Smart! Such Genius! This brilliant idea never would have occurred to me in a million years! I will be rich! RICH I TELLS YA!!!!" Then turn-about seems to me to be fair play. |
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Post by rberman on Jan 29, 2018 15:14:40 GMT -5
1) The timing is quite plausible given the social cross pollination between staff at the two companies. 2) Marvel in particular as the underdog had incentive to be recklessly experimental, trying every new idea that came down the block. If it doesn't work, drop it and try something else next month. 3) Yes, Doom Patrol does seem indebted to FF, which in turn was indebted to Challengers of the Unknown. Much has been written about the "five man band" team trope of brain, brawn, hot-head, girl, and mascot (either child or animal) that probably has antecedents prior to Challengers. 4) Interesting point, and I'll have to go back and look at the first dozen issues of X-Men when I get home to see what attitudes the civilians show toward them. 5) The "super team" aspect of FF came from JLA, but the origin story came from Kirby's work on Challengers of the Unknown #3. (see below) 6) I agree.  |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 29, 2018 15:34:47 GMT -5
I went to college with a guy who worked in comics for awhile, including a stint in the Marvel Bullpen, before changing gears professionally. During this time he developed a series pitch, which he showed to a pro (who will go nameless) that was mentoring him. The pro stole the idea and put out his own series based on it. Not quite what the topic is about, but it immediately came to mind when I saw this thread. Was the series a success? Marginally? |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 29, 2018 15:56:05 GMT -5
Morrison was pretty open about his Jerry Cornelius obsession, dressing like the character for a period of time (in his youth). Morrison seems to court this kind of stuff, while calling kettles black. He made noise, back in the late 80s/early 90s, about Moore lifting material from Robert Mayer's Superfolks. There is a bit in his "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' in his depiction of Mxyzptlk and Demoniac was sort of lifted for his Twilight proposal. On the other hand, he didn't care that the Wachowski brothers ripped off The Invisibles when they made The Matrix. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 16:18:03 GMT -5
Morrison was pretty open about his Jerry Cornelius obsession, dressing like the character for a period of time (in his youth). Morrison seems to court this kind of stuff, while calling kettles black. He made noise, back in the late 80s/early 90s, about Moore lifting material from Robert Mayer's Superfolks. There is a bit in his "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' in his depiction of Mxyzptlk and Demoniac was sort of lifted for his Twilight proposal. On the other hand, he didn't care that the Wachowski brothers ripped off The Invisibles when they made The Matrix. That's because his "ideas" in the Invisibles were about a creative and his own as Dan Brown's ideas were in the Da Vinci Code. If you read the books Morrison read that influenced the Invisibles, every one of his so called original ideas were there, so he could hardly call out someone for stealing his ideas when they were someone else's. I enjoy the Invisibles for what it was, taking a lot of ideas I had read in other places and creating an interesting narrative that serves as guided tour through them, but it's hardly original or groundbreaking in its ideas. -M |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 29, 2018 16:20:47 GMT -5
Morrison was pretty open about his Jerry Cornelius obsession, dressing like the character for a period of time (in his youth). Morrison seems to court this kind of stuff, while calling kettles black. He made noise, back in the late 80s/early 90s, about Moore lifting material from Robert Mayer's Superfolks. There is a bit in his "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' in his depiction of Mxyzptlk and Demoniac was sort of lifted for his Twilight proposal. On the other hand, he didn't care that the Wachowski brothers ripped off The Invisibles when they made The Matrix. Well, you can point to a lot of stuff that predates Morrison, in the Matrix; so, he probably knew he couldn't make too much noise, on that account. Who knows? Really, if there hadn't have been a Michael Moorcock, a lot of the British comic writers would not have existed, or would not have had the influence that shaped their work. William S Burroughs and JG Ballard, too. With Moorcock's lower profile these days, people tend to forget how big his shadow loomed, in the 60s and 70s and even into the 80s. Not just as a writer; but, also as an editor, with New Worlds. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 29, 2018 18:23:54 GMT -5
I'm sure that everyone in this tread knows more about the Challengers than I do so please forgive some ignorant questions.
How long did the Challengers series run and can you really call it a success like JSA ( the influence for team books in Marvel ) was? I could only imagine copying something that was a sure fire concept like Superman, Batman, Captain America etc. I guess I'm asking, if it was so great why didn't it continue to be published?
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 29, 2018 18:39:42 GMT -5
Challengers ran for about 12 years, from 1958 to 1970. I don't think anyone is suggesting that it was "copied" in an attempt to directly emulate its modest "success", rather that Jack Kirby recycled several aspects of the concept in developing the Fantastic Four. I doubt it felt like a "rip-off" to him, just a new blend of some ideas he'd previously played with. Different enough to stand apart.
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Post by rberman on Jan 29, 2018 19:03:03 GMT -5
How long did the Challengers series run and can you really call it a success like JSA ( the influence for team books in Marvel ) was? I could only imagine copying something that was a sure fire concept like Superman, Batman, Captain America etc. I guess I'm asking, if it was so great why didn't it continue to be published? 1) Wasn't JLA rather than JSA the inspiration for Marvel trying team books? 2) Kirby left Challengers (and DC) after issue 3, so it suffered the fate of many a series orphaned by its creator. 3) It wasn't so much that it alone was great (though under Kirby it was typical Kirby-good) as that it had ideas that Kirby marinated and added to when he created the Fantastic Four. So when Stan said, "Jack, we need a team of super-heroes like the JLA!" Kirby pulled out a super-team with strong ties to his recently ended work on Challengers. |
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