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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 13:14:02 GMT -5
At what point do we stop re-hashing "secret origins?" I've probably read/seen Batman's origin in well over 100 iterations. Same with Spider-Man. Is there really anything new to say about them? At what point do we finally give it a rest?
I ask because I just started a re-read of Jeff Smith's Shazam: The Monster Society of Evil. And I've read Captain Marvel's origin over a dozen times. At least in this case it's a quality creator attempting a reboot.
Maybe I'm just old and burned out.
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Post by berkley on Feb 15, 2018 13:40:48 GMT -5
For me, yes, you're right: I don't feel any need or even much casual interest in seeing another re-hashing of any established character's origins - and I imagine this would hold true for most people who have been reading since the 60s or 70s or 80s, or even just since the 90s.
For newer, younger readers - and as we're often reminded, that's who the current comics are aimed at - I can't speak, but I imagine they might find something to interest them in the new origins or in the new variations on old characters in general, like the female Thor, the wise-cracking Dr. Strange, or what have you.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 15, 2018 13:53:09 GMT -5
Maybe we've been at the dance too long.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 14:01:02 GMT -5
Part of it could be that I've been at this too long. But then again it seems that, for instance, Batman's origin is rehashed a couple times a year. Spider-man's too. Honestly these are pretty simple stories and I'm guessing at this point they've permeated the culture to a point that people who don't know them are in the minority. It's certainly possible that I'm jaded, but is there really much to add to either of those too stories at this point? Recap them in one page every five years and move on to something interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:07:57 GMT -5
Part of it I think comes form the obsession/fetish of the hardcore fanbase to read everything form t he beginning so they have the entire story and don't miss out on it, so everytime you start a new story, you have to throw a tidbit in there to make it feel like it continues form that beginning, for the story to matter. A lot of writers too, try to draw the thematic underpinnings of their stories about corporate characters form the origins stories to have a thread through, so you have to retell the origin with your own nuances to highlight the thematic underpinnings you want to use to to juxtapose the shocking everything you knew is wrong twist you are going to include in the story. But basically these origin inclusions and retellings are just feeding the beast that is the fanbase's obsession with continuity, completionism and only reading stories that matter because that is what sells to the remnant of an audience that is the direct market. As long as the fans keep shelling out the dough for them, the companies will keep putting them out.
-M
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Post by MDG on Feb 15, 2018 14:13:36 GMT -5
You should be able to recap an origin in two pages or less. If a new reader wants more, they can probably find it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 14:16:26 GMT -5
You should be able to recap an origin in two pages or less. If a new reader wants more, they can probably find it. Dead link walking.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 15, 2018 18:04:46 GMT -5
The image shows up fine for me.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 18:25:16 GMT -5
The image shows up fine for me. It does for me now. But it didn't. I bought that Batman: The War Years book for my 9 year old grandson a couple Christmas' ago.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 15, 2018 18:44:22 GMT -5
Okay, quick. What's Hawkman's origin ?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 18:47:19 GMT -5
Okay, quick. What's Hawkman's origin ? Which one? Which Hawkman? Which week?
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2018 18:48:00 GMT -5
You have to remember that any comic book might be a reader's first. It is only really a problem with those who have been around for a bit. Comics have gone from a mass medium to a niche product and created a very insular world. By definition, we are fans and we have read numerous stories. When comics were a mass medium, the audience changed about every 5 years, with new folks coming in and others leaving (partly due to a lack of more mature content). As such, it was helpful to bring up the origin again, as a newcomer might be unfamiliar. It was also the reason you saw little evolution in titles. It was rare for characters to marry and have families. The more comics started catering to the fans than the mass audience, the more we saw those types of stories.
As said above, the best origins could be summarized in a page or two, or even in a small piece of narration or dialogue. The little introductory text in the masthead often sufficed. You don't have to redo the story, itself. In the case of Superman and Batman, they often had to update things for a new audience. Having the Kents turn a baby over to an orphanage and then adopting him worked for decades, then you ran into the problem that newer social mechanisms replaced orphanages and there would be far more questions now than in the 1940s. So, you tweak it to the Kents keeping the baby, as winter sets in and they are isolated more from Smallville. Only problem there is that small communities don't keep many secrets and no winter is long enough to hide a complete pregnancy. Tongues would be wagging.
Batman's is one that I don't think needs to be retold much, anymore. There aren't many elements that are so tied to a period and pretty much every facet of the story has been done. What you end up with is a vanity piece of a writer and/or artist doing their spin on it, without adding anything to it. Some changes aren't necessary. Do Peter Parker's parents really need to be turned into secret agents? Did that make their absence any more poignant? Not really, in my estimation. The fact of the matter is they were dead, and Peter was raised by the older Ben and May Parker. Those are the parents he knew best and it is Ben's death that has the greatest effect upon Peter.
Captain Marvel could use a retelling, as he is a character that hasn't had sustained publication. He head been gone for about 20 years when DC launched Shazam. He was mostly dormant when Crisis happened and he was retooled in the aftermath. That one didn't grasp many readers, so DC and Jerry Ordway tried something that modernized the concept, while stayed true to the history. It lost a lot of the whimsy; but, gave some more serious twists to others. That take lasted for a few years, then the character fell back into the background. DC has struggled with how to make the character appealing, trying to hard to make it fit in the ultra-serious and ultra-violent world of modern comics or place it purely in the realm of kids. What they don't seem to understand is that Captain Marvel has always worked best in his own little universe, with its own story logic and sensibilities. it can be both serious and whimsical and was at its height when that was the norm. Turning him into yet another superhero robs him of what made him bigger than Superman, at one point.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 15, 2018 18:51:07 GMT -5
Okay, quick. What's Hawkman's origin ? Which one? Which Hawkman? Which week? Exactly.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2018 18:51:58 GMT -5
Okay, quick. What's Hawkman's origin ? An archaeologist is the reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh. he uses the weapons of the ancients to fight the evils of today. An alien policeman comes to Earth to track down a criminal and stays to fight Earth crime, using weapons of the past and science from another world. An ancient pharaoh comes in contact with alien technology and finds himself and his beloved reborn across the ages, carrying through his symbol of the hawk in each life.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 15, 2018 18:53:43 GMT -5
Okay, quick. What's Hawkman's origin ? An archaeologist is the reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh. he uses the weapons of the ancients to fight the evils of today. An alien policeman comes to Earth to track down a criminal and stays to fight Earth crime, using weapons of the past and science from another world. An ancient pharaoh comes in contact with alien technology and finds himself and his beloved reborn across the ages, carrying through his symbol of the hawk in each life. I need an aspirin.
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