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Post by sabongero on Feb 15, 2018 15:50:53 GMT -5
I looked up information on Conan as I was interested in getting into reading back issues of the Conan the Barbarian comic book(s), and found that his creator was Robert E. Howard, who ended up committing suicide at an early age. However, there were some internet entries citing that the author was racist like his contemporaries, but was not a malicious racist. Would that translate to his Conan work? Perhaps.
What's your opinion on this guys?
Also, modern contemporary views on racism, would it be different than that of racism in the Hyborian Age that Conan exists in?
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2018 18:25:33 GMT -5
Conan stories are a product of their time and the Nubians were not quite treated like the Acquilonians. It's the same idea that Europe was civilized, but Africa was savage. In that, it is no different from most adventure fiction of the era. I can't claim to be even a remote expert of Conan, as I have only red a small handful of the titles (and mostly the stuff that was tinkered with, by Lin Carter and L Sprague De Camp). However, I don't recall what I would call a heavy racist tone. Then again, I am a white male. Burroughs was probably worse, in this realm, than Howard. However, Conan tended to treat wizards and the like as purveyor's of evil, while the wilder folk could be either evil or noble.
The thing is, they were written in the 30s and use terms that are trigger words in modern society. Howard uses the term "negroid" and "black dogs," while depicting Conan in battle with Stygians, who have dark skin. However, he shows Conan befriending some black warriors and that not all Stygians were evil. There is a certain sensitivity to such words that has grown over time, which generate knee-jerk reactions, especially when taken out of context. "Negroid," may sound derogative, in and of itself; however, when you read it in an 80 year-old passage, as a basic description, without any derogatory adjectives or obvious racial slurs, it doesn't sound quite so malicious.
Personally, I have no problem with adjusting speech to use terms that ethnic groups find inoffensive; why go out of your way to antagonize someone, just because that term was once acceptable? Things change and evolve. However, I sometimes lament that people react more to the word than the context and/or actions, or over-react to the offense of others, as they shouldn't have to change or evolve in their behavior. Every time I hear terms like PC police and Social Justice Warriors, it makes me want to puke. By the same token, knee-jerk reactions to a simple descriptive word or phrase, without a deliberately racial or ethnic component elicits the same reaction. You have to find a happy middle ground where you are sensitive to the feelings of others but also pay attention to intent and context.
When looking at classic literature, you do have to weigh the period in which it is written with concerns of racism or colonialism and also look at how the author treats the subject within. If you can find both positive and negative elements, then you can't just level blanket criticisms of racism and/or ethnic stereotyping. Also, just because a character exhibits racism within a story, it does not immediately follow that the author is racist. If the other characters are not racist, then it would seem that it is a specific personality element of a particular character, reflecting real life.
I think some criticism of Howard is knee-jerk, taking words and phrases out of their story context, while also painting a picture of an author with whom they are only vaguely familiar, as a stereotypical southern racist. HP Lovecraft's stories are far more troubling and he was a New Englander.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 15, 2018 18:45:50 GMT -5
I think some criticism of Howard is knee-jerk, taking words and phrases out of their story context, while also painting a picture of an author with whom they are only vaguely familiar, as a stereotypical southern racist. HP Lovecraft's stories are far more troubling and he was a New Englander. Lovecraft was an unrepentant racist. Howard...was probably racist as well. He grew up in Texas in the 1910s and early 20s. It would have been a miracle if he weren't. However, if you look at his work over time it seems that any racism began to be mitigated. He was a great admirer of Jack Johnson (rare at the time among whites). His later work was more sympathetic to minorities than earlier works. Novalyne Price, who was liberal for the time and area probably had an effect on his views. And I'm not sure that his work was ever tainted by any inherent racism of Howard's. Even his most problematic works like "Black Canaan" can easily be read as the characters being racist. It's not nearly clear that Howard was projecting himself into that story.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 15, 2018 19:25:51 GMT -5
I think some criticism of Howard is knee-jerk, taking words and phrases out of their story context, while also painting a picture of an author with whom they are only vaguely familiar, as a stereotypical southern racist. HP Lovecraft's stories are far more troubling and he was a New Englander. Lovecraft was an unrepentant racist. Howard...was probably racist as well. He grew up in Texas in the 1910s and early 20s. It would have been a miracle if he weren't. However, if you look at his work over time it seems that any racism began to be mitigated. He was a great admirer of Jack Johnson (rare at the time among whites). His later work was more sympathetic to minorities than earlier works. Novalyne Price, who was liberal for the time and area probably had an effect on his views. And I'm not sure that his work was ever tainted by any inherent racism of Howard's. Even his most problematic works like "Black Canaan" can easily be read as the characters being racist. It's not nearly clear that Howard was projecting himself into that story. See, this is where I kind of take exception. Given the time and region, I don't feel you can say he was "probably racist." Based on some of his writing you could infer it; but that is painting a broad stroke over things. It is possible that someone in Texas, at that time, might not be a racist. I do think you could say "ignorant;" and, as he grew in experience beyond his world, that he evolved and became more enlightened. To me, ignorance and racism are too different things. Racism is a product of ignorance; but, there is an element of hatred and fear within racism that isn't there with just ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of understanding and experience and education can cure ignorance' or, at least, reduce it. Education doesn't necessarily erase racism, as you still have the fear and hatred to contend with. I think it is more likely that Howard would have been ignorant about other races until he grew in experience. As such, he might invoke stereotypes earlier on; but, experience and education might lead him to also evolve in his treatment of such characters, as you say, in his later works. This is where I am coming from, when it comes to modern knee-jerk cries of racism and reverse cries of PC and SJW. The reaction is to the extreme, rather than the more fertile ground of ignorance. Ignorance is within the words, racism within the intent and context.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 16, 2018 0:32:51 GMT -5
I agree that compared to Lovecraft, Howard was far milder in his "racism" as judged by modern standards. We can't be overly sensitive about the past. If that were the case, how could we appreciate the sweeping story of world history and learn from it? For the vast majority of time that human civilization has existed, racism and slavery were simply a given part of life. All sane, moral and rational modern humans hate and despise racism (and certainly slavery) but that's no excuse to ignore the creations of the past (that we benefit from in a myriad of ways) just because the nuances are unpleasant and difficult.
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Post by sabongero on Feb 16, 2018 10:59:39 GMT -5
Guys, am I correct to assume that the Hyborian Age would be around the era of the Roman Empire, or a little after that. I would think that the different societies would view each society of different races very differently than their own. It's because it's hard to trust societies or bigger tribes near your own, so the racism towards other races back then would be very overt correct?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 11:03:12 GMT -5
Guys, am I correct to assume that the Hyborian Age would be around the era of the Roman Empire, or a little after that. I would think that the different societies would view each society of different races very differently than their own. It's because it's hard to trust societies or bigger tribes near your own, so the racism towards other races back then would be very overt correct? The Hyborian Age is sometime after the sinking of Atlantis but before the start of recorded history, so no not during the era of the Roman Empire. It would have predated the rise of Mesopotamia and Egypt,so thousands of years before Rome. -M
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Post by sabongero on Feb 16, 2018 11:41:37 GMT -5
Guys, am I correct to assume that the Hyborian Age would be around the era of the Roman Empire, or a little after that. I would think that the different societies would view each society of different races very differently than their own. It's because it's hard to trust societies or bigger tribes near your own, so the racism towards other races back then would be very overt correct? The Hyborian Age is sometime after the sinking of Atlantis but before the start of recorded history, so no not during the era of the Roman Empire. It would have predated the rise of Mesopotamia and Egypt,so thousands of years before Rome. -M Thanks Mrp. Just a quick question. Would Kull's timeline/era coincide with Conan's, or is it a totally different timeline/era altogether?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 11:42:36 GMT -5
Kull is before the sinking of Atlantis iirc, i.e. pre-Hyborian Age.
-M
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 16, 2018 12:58:21 GMT -5
Hyboria is in the unrecorded past, before the history we know; but, it encompasses everything that interested Howard. So, there are Roman elements, Egyptian, viking, Bronze Age, Iron Age and pre-history. The best fantasy worlds have that, like Leiber's Lankhmar or Pratchett's Discworld..
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 17, 2018 9:07:34 GMT -5
Guys, am I correct to assume that the Hyborian Age would be around the era of the Roman Empire, or a little after that. I would think that the different societies would view each society of different races very differently than their own. It's because it's hard to trust societies or bigger tribes near your own, so the racism towards other races back then would be very overt correct? The Hyborian Age was supposed to be around 14,000 to 10,000 BC, after the cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis and the other civilizations of that time period, but way before the oldest known historical civilizations. Conan specifically lived in and around the 10K BC mark. Kull lived in the Pre-Cataclysmic or Thurian Age, which was much further back, at least around 20,000 BC (going by Howard's original essay). Of course this didn't stop Kevin Sorbo from stating in an interview years ago that Kull was Conan's dad. Howard's Hyborian Age Essay
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 18, 2018 18:31:22 GMT -5
I looked up information on Conan as I was interested in getting into reading back issues of the Conan the Barbarian comic book(s), and found that his creator was Robert E. Howard, who ended up committing suicide at an early age. However, there were some internet entries citing that the author was racist like his contemporaries, but was not a malicious racist. Would that translate to his Conan work? Perhaps. What's your opinion on this guys? Also, modern contemporary views on racism, would it be different than that of racism in the Hyborian Age that Conan exists in? In his extensive correspondance with Lovecraft, Howard reveals homself to be uncomfortably racist, yes. i must admit that I was surprised, because that was not something obvious in his stories. Oh, sure, characters in his stories sometimes said racist things, but not in a way that suggested the writer agreed with them. At worst, you’d sometimes find stereotypical characters innhis tales, very much in line with what could be found in the pulps back then. as you say, nothing malicious. The Conan comics, for their part, made a clear effort NOT to be racist, and to show Conan as a guy who doesn’t care what color anyone’s skin can be. Regarding your question regarding the Hyborian age: opinions differ, because Howard himself left notes that sometimes contradict each other. the age of Kull, for example, is sometimes placed 10,000 years before the age of Conan, and sometimes 10 times that. (It doesn’t help that in his pseudo-historical essay « The Hyborian Age », Howard mentions things like the evolution of humans from simian forebears that could not occur in less than millions of years. Roy Thomas placed Conan’s age around 8,000 years B.C., and Kull’s age 10,000 before that, if memory serves. The essay The Hyborian Age describes how the different peoples from that time evolved into the forbears of the Egyptians, the Turks, the Celts and so on. It’s available for free online if you’re interested!
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