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Post by hondobrode on Feb 20, 2018 12:23:20 GMT -5
LOL
New creative teams !
New titles !
Legacy numbering - bad ! Gone
Cebulski says he's never seen so much energy and enthusiasm !
Oh I can't wait !
Look !
A new Avengers # 1 !
New jumping on points !
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 20, 2018 15:37:16 GMT -5
Whatever. They can do whatever they want at this point, because it won't draw me back in. I'm at my fewest number of monthly Marvel titles since I started collecting in the mid-80's, and no amount of hype and illusion of change is going to have any effect.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 20, 2018 18:35:09 GMT -5
But... but... Cebulski insists that he’s never seen that much enthusiasm as for this extraordinary event! Surely we can trust the word of a company spokesman?
Plus, Thod now has a Golden Arm! What a revolution! What an amazing twist! I can’t wait to buy all the variant covers for the new Avengers mag, and intend to read it until it hits issue 600!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 20, 2018 19:12:19 GMT -5
Neat-o. I don't care either way. All I care about are good books.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 19:15:01 GMT -5
Neat-o. I don't care either way. All I care about are good books. Exactly. If some good stuff comes from this, I could care less about numbering or how they market it. If the books are not good, I could care less what the numbering is or how they hype or market it. The preview of Aaron's Avengers looks interesting, and I like the line up, but like all things from the big 2, I'll wait and see what the books actually are before deciding on whether I will read them or not. -M |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 20, 2018 19:17:36 GMT -5
Neat-o. I don't care either way. All I care about are good books. Exactly. If some good stuff comes from this, I could care less about numbering or how they market it. If the books are not good, I could care less what the numbering is or how they hype or market it. The preview of Aaron's Avengers look interesting, and I like the line up, but like all things form the big 2, I'll wait and see what the books actually are before deciding on whether I will read them or not. -M I can always read the rest of it when my review thread gets there. Bwah-ha-ha!! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 19:21:45 GMT -5
Exactly. If some good stuff comes from this, I could care less about numbering or how they market it. If the books are not good, I could care less what the numbering is or how they hype or market it. The preview of Aaron's Avengers look interesting, and I like the line up, but like all things form the big 2, I'll wait and see what the books actually are before deciding on whether I will read them or not. -M I can always read the rest of it when my review thread gets there. Bwah-ha-ha!! At worst, I'll check out some of it when it hits Unlimited, at best I see something that catches my interest and get a print sub at 40-50% off cover. But it's about the books themselves and the art and story the creative teams produce, not what the trade dress says, the issue number, how long the series runs, what an editorial shill says about it, or if it will "matter" in 5 years time. -M |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 20, 2018 23:16:40 GMT -5
I respect the creators, and God knows we all love the characters, but the characters have been so mangled beyond recognition IMO.
Marvel was dying on the vine but when Disney bought it that pretty much cured me of Marvel, just like it has cured me of Star Wars.
I wish it weren't so but that's the way it is.
I'm waiting for an imprint like the Ultimate Universe, or a throwback or non-continuity, or Max, or something like that I can like, otherwise I'm mostly out.
They over-promise, over-price, over-bloat, under-deliver, drag everything out and cross-reference the crap out of everything blah blah blah
I really don't care anymore. They've screwed the whole thing so badly over the last 20 years with very few exceptions that I seriously don't care.
Having said that, I'm interested in Marvel Two-In-One and the eventual return of the FF. That's more than I've been interested in a Marvel title since Agents of Atlas.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 0:01:23 GMT -5
I respect the creators, and God knows we all love the characters, but the characters have been so mangled beyond recognition IMO. Someone who read Superman in Action Comics from 1938-1940 who was fast forwarded to read Weisneger era Superman or Bronze Age Superman would say the character had been mangled beyond all recognition because it was so different. But someone who started in the Weisenger area would feel the same way going back to read the early Siegel & Shuster stuff. Things change. It's the nature of the beast. If they aren't changing they are stagnating and dying. Everyone wants characters to advance to the point they like them and then stop. It doesn't work that way. Change is constant. It doesn't stop. You can't go back and you can't stay in one place, you have to move forward or just stop altogether and disappear. You may not like the change, but to people who started later than you, your preferred version is the unrecognizable one and mangled. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but it serves no one any good to wail and gnash your teeth that these aren't "my" characters anymore or this or that publisher is "ruining comics" or some other nonsense. They never were your characters. they were versions of the character you liked, but it was never the only version and it was never yours, and if change ruined comics, then it was ruined when the Silver Age dawned and the Golden Age waned. Others will like different versions than you. It's the nature of things. But the hyperbolic vitriol directed at publishers because things aren't the way they used to be does no one any good. That kind of negativity just serves to drive even more people away from comics and comic fandom (and sites like this where comic fans congregate), and in a time where the audience for comics is shrinking, this is not a good thing . We're all guilty of it from time to time (I know I have been and I am trying to avoid engaging in the rose colored nostalgia fueled negativity that has become so prevalent), but the negativity is becoming even more toxic of late and more divisive in something that is meant to be a fun past time. -M |
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Post by Randle-El on Feb 21, 2018 0:35:42 GMT -5
Apparently they are keeping the Legacy number AND starting with new #1s. So titles will have dual numbering. "While he did reiterate that titles will be given new #1s, he also clarified that “we’ll be maintaining the classic Legacy issue counts as dual numbering on these titles as well.” This will seemingly serve to bridge the gap between the two initiatives and hopefully help ease the transition for retailers and fans." www.cbr.com/marvel-fresh-start-renumbering-tom-brevoort/Yes, because having two sets of numbers always makes things easier... |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 21, 2018 0:37:24 GMT -5
I respect the creators, and God knows we all love the characters, but the characters have been so mangled beyond recognition IMO. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but it serves no one any good to wail and gnash your teeth that these aren't "my" characters anymore or this or that publisher is "ruining comics" or some other nonsense. They never were your characters. they were versions of the character you liked, but it was never the only version and it was never yours, and if change ruined comics, then it was ruined when the Silver Age dawned and the Golden Age waned. Others will like different versions than you. It's the nature of things. But the hyperbolic vitriol directed at publishers because things aren't the way they used to be does no one any good. That kind of negativity just serves to drive even more people away from comics and comic fandom (and sites like this where comic fans congregate), and in a time where the audience for comics is shrinking, this is not a good thing . We're all guilty of it from time to time (I know I have been and I am trying to avoid engaging in the rose colored nostalgia fueled negativity that has become so prevalent), but the negativity is becoming even more toxic of late and more divisive in something that is meant to be a fun past time. -M Bingo. And I don't have much to add. Except that if you have a hobby and you don't like it, you're doing it wrong. And I speak from experience. I bought a whole passel of shitty Batman comics once-upon-a-time paying money I really couldn't afford and not enjoying them one bit to keep up with them. And I fretted about niggling bits of continuity that meant the some total of...nothing. And low and behold I had an epiphany...I wasn't having fun with my hobby. So I stopped. And at this point I try really hard to just buy and read books I think I'll like. And I could care less what is happening with continuity. And I could give two shits about characters and follow creators because the character is only as good as who is writing or drawing it, but the creators are likely to be consistent from book to book. Life is way too short to not enjoy your hobbies. |
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Post by Confessor on Feb 21, 2018 0:48:56 GMT -5
I respect the creators, and God knows we all love the characters, but the characters have been so mangled beyond recognition IMO. Someone who read Superman in Action Comics from 1938-1940 who was fast forwarded to read Weisneger era Superman or Bronze Age Superman would say the character had been mangled beyond all recognition because it was so different. I don't want to speak for hondo, but I suspect "mangled" in this case refers to a perceived lessening of quality, not simply change. Change as a creative process, and a change for the worst are not necessarily the same thing. ...it serves no one any good to wail and gnash your teeth that these aren't "my" characters anymore or this or that publisher is "ruining comics" or some other nonsense. They never were your characters. they were versions of the character you liked, but it was never the only version and it was never yours, and if change ruined comics, then it was ruined when the Silver Age dawned and the Golden Age waned. Others will like different versions than you. It's the nature of things. But the hyperbolic vitriol directed at publishers because things aren't the way they used to be does no one any good. Well, this is a discussion forum, after all, and obviously we're all very passionate about comics. Therefore a level of impassioned comment -- be it positive or negative -- is kinda expected, surely? but the negativity is becoming even more toxic of late and more divisive in something that is meant to be a fun past time. Heh...welcome to the Internet. Been here long?  |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 21, 2018 1:35:32 GMT -5
I am for change, when it makes sense.
Marvel has been off the rails for at least 10 years now IMO, and yes I can complain about it.
I am not, however, complaining about it and hypocritically continuing to feed the monster.
They don't get money from me.
If something looks interesting, like the FF, I'll try it and then have my opinion.
Even though I really like Batman, I feel there are way to many Batman Family titles and have only read the Morrison titles recently, plus Batwoman here and there, which I thought was just ok.
I'm not against change at all, I'm against change that doesn't at least follow some kind of logic.
Under Quesada things just got pitched or completely mangled to fit formulas instead of continuity and consistent characterization.
Eventually it spins out of control to the point now where I don't even try to follow what Marvel is doing other than reading the headlines on CBR or 'Rama for only the briefest inkling of what the "House of Ideas" is doing now.
The Super titles are looking great again, so I'll eventually get caught up on them and am very much looking forward to the Legion of Super-Heroes, JSA and Shazam titles coming back soon to DC.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 1:38:03 GMT -5
Someone who read Superman in Action Comics from 1938-1940 who was fast forwarded to read Weisneger era Superman or Bronze Age Superman would say the character had been mangled beyond all recognition because it was so different. I don't want to speak for hondo, but I suspect "mangled" in this case refers to a perceived lessening of quality, not simply change. Change as a creative process, and a change for the worst are not necessarily the same thing. ...it serves no one any good to wail and gnash your teeth that these aren't "my" characters anymore or this or that publisher is "ruining comics" or some other nonsense. They never were your characters. they were versions of the character you liked, but it was never the only version and it was never yours, and if change ruined comics, then it was ruined when the Silver Age dawned and the Golden Age waned. Others will like different versions than you. It's the nature of things. But the hyperbolic vitriol directed at publishers because things aren't the way they used to be does no one any good. Well, this is a discussion forum, after all, and obviously we're all very passionate about comics. Therefore a level of impassioned comment -- be it positive or negative -- is kinda expected, surely? but the negativity is becoming even more toxic of late and more divisive in something that is meant to be a fun past time. Heh...welcome to the Internet. Been here long? Lessening of quality is a subjective thing and usually means a version I like less not an objective assessment of the quality of a book based on some agreed upon standard, and mangled is a loaded negative term. Where some see passion, others see entitlement, hubris and unwillingness to accept that other people like different things than you, and just because you don't like something doesn't mean its bad or that others might not like it. And as for welcome to the internet, wasn't one of the goals of this site to be different? A friendly place to discuss comics, not the cesspool of negativity that CBR was. There are times now where I find things here as toxicly negative as CBR ever was, and shrugging and saying oy hey that's the internet what are you going to do does nothing to raise the level of discourse or offer an alternative to that negativity. There's a difference between analysis and criticism of the quality of a work, positive or negative, whether you like it or not and the hyberbolic wailing an gnashing of teeth and blaming people for ruining "your" comics just because you don't like them. -M |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 21, 2018 5:39:02 GMT -5
I don't want to speak for hondo, but I suspect "mangled" in this case refers to a perceived lessening of quality, not simply change. Change as a creative process, and a change for the worst are not necessarily the same thing. Well, this is a discussion forum, after all, and obviously we're all very passionate about comics. Therefore a level of impassioned comment -- be it positive or negative -- is kinda expected, surely? Heh...welcome to the Internet. Been here long? Lessening of quality is a subjective thing and usually means a version I like less not an objective assessment of the quality of a book based on some agreed upon standard, and mangled is a loaded negative term. Oh, it's entirely subjective, yes. But since we as a community don't have this "agreed upon standard" of rating the merits of a comic -- and nor would most of us want or be able to agree on such a thing, I suspect -- giving our own subjective opinion is a perfectly valid response. After all, isn't that part of the fun of discussing any art form, even a disposable one like comics? Also, from what I see here on a day to day basis, people are always offering their subjective opinions on stuff, but either backing it up with intelligent, informed criticism or by simply expressing a preference towards a certain period or creative team over another. Both are entirely valid ways to discuss art, in my opinion. Where some see passion, others see entitlement, hubris and unwillingness to accept that other people like different things than you, and just because you don't like something doesn't mean its bad or that others might not like it. I don't think anyone in this thread said that other people liking different stuff to you is bad. I just see people expressing disappointment in the way Marvel Comics treat their characters nowadays. I hope you won't take offence at this, but it seems to me that there's a logical fallacy at the core of your reasoning here, and that is that all periods of a comic character's publishing history are equal in terms of quality, and that it's the fans who change. That's simply not true -- of comics or any other creative art form. This goes back to my earlier comment that change as a creative process isn't the same as change for the better or the worse. And as for welcome to the internet, wasn't one of the goals of this site to be different? A friendly place to discuss comics, not the cesspool of negativity that CBR was. There are times now where I find things here as toxicly negative as CBR ever was, and shrugging and saying oy hey that's the internet what are you going to do does nothing to raise the level of discourse or offer an alternative to that negativity. Well, I was just trying to be flippant and (hopefully) funny with that remark. Probably it didn't work.  But to be pedantic, as far as I'm aware, this place was originally set up as somewhere that a close knit group of people could move their online community, after their old online home was wrecked through no fault of their own. The old Classic Comics forum at CBR was by far the friendliest place I'd found online up til then, and this place is even better. I really don't see any of the poison or toxicity you refer to. I think this place is just fine. There's a difference between analysis and criticism of the quality of a work, positive or negative, whether you like it or not and the hyberbolic wailing an gnashing of teeth and blaming people for ruining "your" comics just because you don't like them. Yes, there is a difference, but in a public discussion forum, I'd say that both are valid forms of expression. Indeed, I'd even go so far as to say that both are necessary forms of expression in this forum. It's entirely up to each poster how he or she expresses themselves, just as it's up to each poster to judge that form of expression and then decide whether they agree, disagree or should just ignore what's being said. As for a "hyperbolic wailing and gnashing of teeth and blaming people for ruining "your" comics", I'm sorry, but I really don't see a lot of that here. Just people rolling their eyes at yet another cynical marketing ploy by Marvel and saying that they preferred the way Marvel creative handled their favourite characters in the past. Given that this is a classic comics forum, that's hardly surprising -- even in the modern comics sub-forum. |
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