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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 21, 2018 6:39:54 GMT -5
As for a "hyperbolic wailing and gnashing of teeth and blaming people for ruining "your" comics", I'm sorry, but I really don't see a lot of that here. Just people rolling their eyes at yet another cynical marketing ploy by Marvel and saying that they preferred the way Marvel creative handled their favourite characters in the past. Precisely. Nobody criticized those new books (since none of them are out yet) but seeing Marvel roll out the red carpet and pretend that this is some kind of important event heralding a new era for its comics is laughable, especially since the company recycles the same tricks that it used enldessly during the last decade (restarting series, shuffling teams, changing the numbering, and superficially altering some characters). That being said, if publishers intend to continue relying on the soap opera model (monthly publication of titles for as long as they sell), then consistency does play an important role in readership retention. It is not enough to tell good stories; a soap opera might use outrageous plot twists, but it needs to be consistent from one episode to the next or risk losing the return viewers. Imagine if the next Star Wars film showed that it was all a dream, and that Luke Skywalker is actually called Nigel Jones, a railroad worker from Sheffield, with an overactive imagination and an incestuous desire for his sister. It might be a good movie, but the franchise’s fans might very well “wail and gnash their teeth” and force a reboot for the next installment. That is less of a problem with the European system, in which comic-book series are either designed with a specific ending in mind, or are published irregularly and based on what is mostly a continuity-free status quo. |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 21, 2018 8:18:07 GMT -5
Thank you Confessor and Roquefort Raider for understanding what I'm driving at here.
We all have our opinions and there is a lot of subjectivity involved.
I mostly like change and a freshening of things, but it needs to make sense and at least have some logic.
That's a lot of why I've lost a taste for Marvel over the last two tenures of Editor-in-Chief's Axel Alonso (who I practically worshiped at Vertigo) and Joe Quesada (who I was really excited about with his Marvel Knights imprint but later grew very tired of very quickly with Bill Jemas).
Constantly talking smack about DC in a very disparaging way, jettisoning characterization for writing by committee, and everything is not what it seems, and mega-crossover events where it's all gimmick and flash and nothing really changes, along with, let's make a big shocking thing and it means nothing constantly jerking everyone around.
Too be fair, lots of these things stem directly from Brian Michael Bendis, whom I'm very, very afraid of coming over to DC.
Decompression under him too has really left and extremely bitter taste in my mouth.
As I stated before, the politics, the smack, the constant shock and Marvel Now followed quickly very quickly by All-New All-Different Marvel, and now Fresh Start.
For a company that has constantly taken shots at DC for rebooting starting with COIE, it's funny how Marvel keeps trying to soft reboot without hard rebooting, which I predict will eventually happen.
I'll also state that constantly cancelling titles and coming out with another version, Captain America anyone, is extremely annoying, along with the constant bombardment of new # 1's, and "new directions".
Oh, and when it's convenient, legacy numbering, which now will apply to some titles and not others, and the logic behind said legacy numbering is sometimes very fuzzy.
Buying Malibu and never utilizing the characters because of contractual issues is super weak IMO and them canning Epic and CrossGen is too. Talk about being able to grow the market and give us some good indie-style or Vertigo-style mature content would be welcome. That's another very big reason why I've been a big DC fan is that they wisely have supported non-superhero lines like that and at least tried to expand the market.
Gone are the days, at least for me, of slavishly following characters that I love through creative teams doing horrible work (Scott Lobdell, Chuck Austen) on characters I used to buy religiously. In fact, it was Lobdell's X-Men that got me to kick the whole X-franchise, one of the best things ever to happen to me, and I didn't come back to any X-titles until Ultimate X-Men and Morrison's run, both of which I liked.
I buy what I like, not what I'm forced to.
Marvel has made it very easy to not buy their product in the last 15 years or so.
This too shall pass.
Eventually the giant will lose enough market share to quit trying ridiculous nostalgic attempts to win back classic readers like the posters on this forum with the return of Marvel Value Stamps (ugh) to solid stories with consistent characterization and a stable Marvel Universe not being softly reinvented every year. Seriously.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 21, 2018 8:40:32 GMT -5
Going back to one Avengers book seems positive, though I don't like the line up much (having T'challa and Tony Stark both on the team is silly story wise, and Ghost Rider and Dr Strange there don't mix well). And doing the extra shipping thing means either multiple artists or they've produced stuff in advance and it'll be temporary.
I'm also not a fan of that 10,000 BC thing, so if that's a feature.. meh. I'll probably stick with checking stuff out after it hits Unlimited.
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 21, 2018 9:26:46 GMT -5
Oh, and as far as the toxicity of this site, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder, cause this is still by far one of the best places on the net for civil discourse.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Feb 21, 2018 9:56:02 GMT -5
I haven't really been into comics consistently ever. Only picking up an issue here or there, and for some reason usually being DC. Most of what I know comes from cartoons and video games from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. I'm reading some of the old titles from the beginning like Fantastic Four, X-Men, and The Avengers just because I thought it would be interesting. Also I think it's a good opportunity to see pencilers like Neal Adams or John Byrne in their prime.
Even though there seem to be a ton of reset button pushes when it comes to Marvel or DC, I think it is a good chance to get new readers in the mix. When this drops in April I'm going to try to keep up with some titles. I really do want to be a consumer, but I'm always afraid of getting involved and being confused from the onset. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to get on the wagon. So I have to say I am kind of excited.
By the way, there are some things I'm confused about since I obviously don't keep up. So Jean Grey was dead for a long time, but now she's back right? Also, the X-Men have been shunned in recent years by Marvel publications, but they may be back on the upswing due to the impending licensing deal between Disney and Fox correct? If that's the case I'd be even more excited, because I always liked the X-Men the most when growing up.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 21, 2018 10:16:19 GMT -5
I was a teenage Marvel Zombie growing up but now I am the Marvel Walking Dead because there are no titles coming from them that I am inclined to check out or follow. At this time there are only 2 which I am currently getting and both are very close to being dropped: Iron Fist and Monsters Unleashed. Current MU is not all that enticing for me anymore. The characters are not acting as they should (being heroic) and the changes back and forth from Legacy to New and back to Legacy is tiresome after so many times. DC is in the same slowly leaking boat. I only pick up Flash and Titans with nothing else from them.
Hows about we get some nice continued heroic adventures? Maybe then I will pick up some Marvel and DC titles again. In the meantime I continue to watch, wait and hope while enjoying my Usagi and Dredd TPBs!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 21, 2018 11:22:31 GMT -5
The new Marvel Two-in-One book is a hoot. As long as it doesn't fall into crossover Hell I'll be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 11:44:52 GMT -5
Marvel started to pull me back in with the Legacy titles. I will wait & see if they if they go in a direction I like. If they don't... oh well.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 21, 2018 13:26:44 GMT -5
Counterpoint: I appreciate Marvel's recent attempts to expand their market share and cater to new - even (*gasp*) female(!) audiences, and I really like ... eh... maybe 10% of Marvel's current product line in the last few years.
That is far, far more than the '80s or the '00s. And for most of the '90s I was really impressed with 0% of Marvel so that is 10% more!
So.. yeah. Classic fan, and I think Marvel in the last few years is the best is has been since the mid '70s.
So the new reboot is probably gonna mess THAT up, but then I'll have more money for stuff from Fantagraphics and First Second and Drawn and Quarterly and even Image and Dark Horse. Companies that are trying to make good comics rather than leverage corporate IP for maximum profit. So win win.
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sacorn
Junior Member
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Post by sacorn on Feb 21, 2018 15:31:51 GMT -5
Marvel started to pull me back in with the Legacy titles. I will wait & see if they if they go in a direction I like. If they don't... oh well. Yeah, I tried a few more with Legacy after a big hiatus and am now getting just as much Marvel as I used to. On my pull list I have:
Amazing Spider-man Dr Strange Mighty Thor Incredible Hulk Iron Fist Luke Cage Punisher Moon Knight Thanos
I'm probably going to drop a couple that I'm not enjoying that much (Moon knight, Iron Fist after damnation) but the numbering doesn't really bother me either way. The stories have been pretty good in my opinion.
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Post by String on Feb 21, 2018 19:24:16 GMT -5
Well, while I think one could possibly bemoan yet another 'new initiative' from Marvel, I think by doing so, one is also belittling the efforts of those creators involved in these new projects and books. I would think (and hope) that the creators involved are putting forth their best efforts in providing an entertaining, engaging story regardless of the marketing ploys and tricks that Marvel is currently pulling.
As such, I will continue to support those Marvel books that I find interesting and entertaining and if in reading them, something doesn't jibe with something that happened back in 1972 (for example), then don't care, it doesn't matter to me anymore. As for any new titles, I will check out those that interest me and see if they are able to maintain my interest. If they can't, then I will stop buying them.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 21, 2018 20:41:23 GMT -5
"Things aren't the same" isn't why I stopped buying comics, It was mostly the price tag of 4 bucks for 20 pages which I found to be too much . Some posters claim that Marvel has been bad for the last 10 years, but I rather enjoyed the Mark Waid Avengers and a few other titles that escape my mind at this time. But , buy what is good and drop what is not. The days of slavishly buying a title to keep the run intact are dead for me. As for this forum, from time to time there are some harsh comments made in the course of a discussion, but I try to write it off as an aberration or someone having a bad day.
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 22, 2018 2:23:44 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I agree if comics weren't $ 4 each I might be much more inclined. That's yet another reason why I dislike current Marvel. They were the ones that pushed up the prices.
To be fair, just because I don't currently like Marvel doesn't mean others should feel how I feel. There might be some good product in there I'm missing, but I'll probably never get to read it.
My current reading has slowed considerably as I have a huge back log of material to catch up on, but seriously, if it doesn't just look rocking great, why would I try it when I have Valiant, DC, Vertigo, Image, Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, Oni and more who have some really great product ?
Not saying Marvel is the worst, but I prefer the other publisher's that are producing fresh, invigorating material. Just haven't felt that with Marvel for a long time.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 22, 2018 7:01:33 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I agree if comics weren't $ 4 each I might be much more inclined. That's yet another reason why I dislike current Marvel. They were the ones that pushed up the prices. To be fair, just because I don't currently like Marvel doesn't mean others should feel how I feel. There might be some good product in there I'm missing, but I'll probably never get to read it.My current reading has slowed considerably as I have a huge back log of material to catch up on, but seriously, if it doesn't just look rocking great, why would I try it when I have Valiant, DC, Vertigo, Image, Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, Oni and more who have some really great product ? Not saying Marvel is the worst, but I prefer the other publisher's that are producing fresh, invigorating material. Just haven't felt that with Marvel for a long time. In a sense I am lucky not to have access to a LCS. Since 2001, all the Marvel “recent” stuff I bought was in the form of collected editions, be they 6-issue trades or big 12-issue hardcovers. Those things are published quite a while after the floppies, and so when yet another Big Event turns out to be a poorly-executed dud I have wasted neither time nor money. On the othe hand, when a run receives genuine praise, I can get the whole story in one go. Back in the day I probably would have followed all the books with shocking revelations, dead heroes and nothing-will-ever-be-the-same-again stuff, and would have regretted the lost time and money. Nowadays I get the occasional book like Aaron and Ribic’s Thor or Fraction and Aja’s Hawkeye and feel I get good value for what I pay. Plus, yeah... Five bucks for a floppy is beyond my means. |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 22, 2018 8:52:55 GMT -5
I've learned to do that as well RR.
Sounds great; let's just see how it shakes out.
More often than not, I'm glad I waited.
Another thing I've learned is : I can get it later if I want, and it's usually less if I wait.
Back in the old days, you didn't want to miss out cause you might not see it again, or the price would be jacked up.
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