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Post by nero9000 on Mar 2, 2018 20:04:27 GMT -5
Ok, I kinda promised I'd make this thread, so here we go!
I've been basically a Marvel-zombie all my comic collecting career. But since I've pretty much collected every Marvel issue I'm interested in, I've started thinking it wouldn't hurt to see what's on the other side of the fence. Now, I'm not a complete DC noob. I did try a bunch of DC stuff when I was younger, but it just didn't fit my boat the same way Marvel did. Still, I figure me breaking my DC cherry properly might make for a fun forum exercise.
Since I originally became a Marvel fan after reading Secret Wars, it's only fitting we start off our DC adventure with the DC counterpart, the mighty CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. What can I say, I love being confused. It also helps this is the magnum opus of two of the guys Shooter-Marvel really should never have allowed to slip from their grasp.
Now, I don't want to hog all the glory, and certainly don't wanna be just talking to myself, so hopefully I can entice a bunch of people to join in, whether to comment on my comments, or to write up their own reviews. My only request is not to get too many direct spoilers. I already know some of the happenings in this series after being part of the online comic community for years, and I don't mind if people talk about character backstories or even stuff that happened to them later, but hopefully no "next issue this happens" stuff.
My own write-ups are going to be pretty informal. Rather than make too intricate reviews, I'm opting for a stream of consciousness style hilarious (I swear!) commentary of anything that springs into my mind while I read this stuff. Oh, and trigger warning, since I am a Marvel guy, there may be a fair bit of good-natured roasting involved. Heck, for all I know, I might trash this stuff all to hell! That'll be part of the interest.
I'll probably post a review every couple of days. Not sure yet. I want to give people time to discuss each issue, though, so I guess I'll post the next installment whenever this thread has started to slide down.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 2, 2018 20:09:01 GMT -5
My history with DC:
Also taking the time to reflect back on the few DC issues I have read, so you know where I'm coming from. Let's see now.
I first tried out DC as a kid when I had bought out every Finnish language Marvel issue I could find. Bought a bunch of Superman and Batman issues, but just didn't find them on the same level as the Marvel stuff. So the budding collecting just kinda fazed out, as I decided to get into English language Marvel back issues instead.
I remember some of the stories I read. One was a Superman issue that started off with Superman having destroyed Lex Luthor's home planet of Luthoria, and killed his wife Lexa and son Lex. The issue also had twins that were conjoined in the ass. Haha, I admit I thought the stuff was soo lame. Who recognizes this issue? I also had the Alan Moore one where everyone ends up killing each other. It was a lot better, but color me surprised when later on I discovered it was like an all-time Superman classic. A third one I remember is the Byrne issue with the Legion that had the same cover as Fantastic Four 249. Surprisingly I don't remember much about my Batman issues. Only one I can remember is the one that started with a dead Jason Todd.
After reaching adulthood I tried some of the most legendary DC material, which was available at the library. Dark Knight Returns was absolutely terrible! Like really lamely grim and gritty. I dunno, I guess it was a big deal back in the day, but it's really aged terribly, what with every other comic since being a grim and gritty alternate reality take. So tired of that stuff! Watchmen was excessively grim and gritty, too, but that one was a legitimately great story. Alan Moore could cheer up bit, though.
Besides that, I read the entire O'Neill/Adams run, such as it is. This was supposed to be like a really big deal, so I was underwhelmed by that run, too. As a Marvel fan, I vastly prefer more character-driven stuff, so I was disappointed this run was basically just a collection of random single issues from here and there with no real character arc, subplots or development. I also read some Best of Superman trade, but can't remember much of it, actually, even if it was just a while ago. I only remember kinda liking the Supergirl debut issue. Somehow they managed to infuse this quaint but raw emotion into a simple story, and just a couple of panels.
Anyway, that's all the stuff I remember reading. This is the basis from which I'll start my next DC-crusade. I don't really expect to fall in love with the material I read, but it'll be interesting to see what happens!
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 2, 2018 20:18:35 GMT -5
Without further ado, I'm already jumping into the first issue. Yes, I already read it and had my comments written down. Had to make sure I wasn't so bored by the stuff I couldn't even make it past issue #1, after all. CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS #1Profound intro. Reminds me of Starlin's Infinity stuff. The ending is going to be similarly completely over the top, with exploding multiverses and stuff, right? "A multiverse that should have been one became many." Eh, how do you have many multiverses? First dead earth already. Oh well, it was a silly earth, anyway. Just some old guy with super-hokey monologing. Next up, earth 3. This is one of the most important earths. Like top 20 easily. In this earth nobody knows each others proper names. Sorry, not buying it. An earth where Lex Luthor is the only hero (thank you cheesy exposition) would be screwed (even before now, that is). Evil Superman would clobber Luthor's ass just as easily as good Superman. Yay, I know who Owlman is. Every DC hero is just one earth away from being murderous supervillains. That's scary. Luthor jr. totally ripping off Superman. Earth 1. This is the lamest earth out of them all. Actually, better to be Earth #1 than say... 616. It would be easier for the destructive force to go from earth to earth in numerical order, wouldn't it? What if they accidentally miss one earth? Babe has a point. Just call in an army of Supermen and deal with it! No, we must enlist the help of Captain Boomerang and The Penguin if we are to survive! Lyla has to split herself like the universe. Uhmm, doesn't every universe have their own Lyla or something? Monitor and Lyla are total snowflakes. Only one of them in all the multiverses. Have you heard this one, guys? How many universes can fit into one multiverse? I dunno, this stuff is already going over my head. Whatevs. Business starts to pick up as we get our first talking gorilla! Gorilla City, Africa. Unfortunate implications. That's it, Solovar. Blame everything on humans. As if gorillas never f'd anything up. Harbinger rightly busting the gorillas for their double standards. We now travel to the future. Don't worry, guys, we have proof the earth makes it! Suicide slum. I bet that's where the president of future earth lives. Next up, Roy Thomas-verse... I mean Earth 2, and Firebrand. Harbinger is really specific on who she wants on her squad. You sure Firestorm or someone wouldn't just be enough? Saves the trouble of time traveling. Secret mastermind watches them from the shadows. Yeah, what're you gonna do, dude? Wait 40 years for your masterplan to unfold? Blue Beetle barges in on a hostage situation like a complete and utter nutjob. This is a bona fide vigilante right here. He has a very distinct personality, though. "Come with me, please." "Only if you say please." Dude, are you even listening? Oh, he was talking to the bad guy. Poor dialogue. Harbinger is killed before she can collect every Pokemon. Just kidding, here she is still. Psycho-Pirate says he's as sane as any man. After the green wizard dude and Blue Beetle I'm inclined to agree. She can't get the first Psycho-Pirate, because he's dead. Uhmm, can you or can you not travel in time? Did they think this story through? I hope he has an actual pirate costume, arr. Arion, Lord of Atlantis. This guy is a total lamo. Yes, thank god he was killed instantly! Oh, they did actually bring Firestorm in, too. One can never too many fire-heroes. Time to separate the boys from the idiots? Terrible idiom. Killer Frost seems like the first legitly cool character. She's Firestorm's most deadly enemy, but he's like yawning while fighting her. Pirate outfit was wishful thinking, I see. That costume is terrible! Firestorm isn't into kissing girls. Dude, just go for it, man! I can see why Marv took this route, though, to escape more unfortunate implications. More SUPER-CHEESY exposition. Marv realized getting the band together was gonna take the entire limited series, so everyone else just pops in out of nowhere. Noo, Arion is still here! Firestorm 'warming up' to Killer Frost. Obsidian looks pretty cool. Superman is so past it. You can't beat a bunch of shadowy goons? These guys were handpicked to save the universe? Can we start the schoolyard pick all over? "None of this makes any sense". Thank you, bird lady. You know you're in trouble when even the characters start questioning the plot. "Reality holds surprises for everyone". Hah, good line for some reason. Gorilla version of "shyt happens" or "deal with it". Arion totally trying to pick up Polaris here. He's not your friend, buddy. He's no Magneto, either. Killer Frost isn't feeling for a threesome. Firestorm is already tired of this love angle. I dunno, this gimmick and the gorilla are like the best stuff so far. Ok, Firestorm isn't even a fire guy. He has these really lame random DC powers. "Allow me to introduce myself. I am the Watch... Monitor!" This guy acts like he's a big deal. I think this might be his first appearance? That's a wrap on the first issue. Not quite sure what to say so far. This issue was all about getting the band together and then realizing they're way over their heads here. George Perez is a genius, but I gotta say I'm real disappointed with Marv's dialogue. He was supposed to be way better than this. Blue Beetle, gorilla, and Firestorm and his girlfriend were the ones with some kind of personality, so they're my favorites for now. Everyone else was just kinda there. Not overwhelmed by past continuity just yet. The uber-cosmic stuff is a bigger challenge.
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Post by The Captain on Mar 2, 2018 21:23:48 GMT -5
nero9000 - loved your take on the first issue! I'm a long-time Marvel Zombie myself, but I have been making an effort to branch out into some DC in the past couple of years. Picked up the TPB of this series from my local library last fall and made it through three issues worth of material before realizing I had no idea who 75% of the characters were and that I didn't give a crap about anything that was happening to any of them. Keep up the good work and I'll keep reading.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Mar 2, 2018 21:41:17 GMT -5
I am happy to see someone writing this who is similar to me in their collecting. I would say 75% of my collection is Marvel. I do have a large Batman collection that is from 1970-1995, as I find him to be the easiest Superhero to follow in his two titles, without too much overlap into other books that cause confusion. I have read zero Green Lantern, maybe 5 Flash comics and I might be on two hands worth of counting for the Superman issues I have read. Oh and zero team books, with the exception of a few Teen Titans issues from the 80's.
There are a lot of reasons why I don't love DC. The characters mentioned above just never appealed to me. I found them overpowered and their rogues gallery laughable. I also found stuff pre-1970 to be extremely cheesy. Marvel had cheese, but it looked good and were your typical silly action packed superhero tales, with great heroes and even better villains in my opinion. And of course, this multiple earths thing just seemed silly to me as well. It is a unique and interesting concept but I feel it was never executed well enough to be even so much as a good thing.
I recently got the first issue of Crisis. I am also going to read it and follow along here. I might wait though until I have all issues to read them but if I get that intrigued, I may cave and read them online.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 3, 2018 1:29:38 GMT -5
Well, let me offer the Democratic Response, here. Everyone reacts to stories differently, which is what makes storytelling, and art , in general, great. Crisis is not necessarily a great jumping on point, for anything. It is essentially an ending to the Silver and Bronze Age DC and the launching point of a more unified fictional realm for all of DC (or, to Marvelize DC). You do need to be familiar with characters to really understand what is going on, not so much for the events, as they are deliberately chaotic and almost no one knows what is going on. No, you need to be familiar with them to understand their reactions and motivations, not to mention their power level and place within the DCU.
The Monitor had actually been making cameo appearances (unseen) for over a year. He was cataloging Earth's heroes and villains and actually helped arm a few minor gimmick villains, to test the heroes (as seen in Wolfman & Perez's New Teen Titans). We did get a glimpse of the Monitor in Green Lantern. The first issue is throwing you into the storm, while also introducing some key players. Blue Beetle is there to launch DC's use of the Charlton Action Heroes. Firebrand is there more to add another female and one with a bit of power, for Earth 2. Earth 1 Superman is there because he is the big gun. The Earth 3 Luthor was relatively new, having been introduced in DC Comics Presents Annual #1, in 1982. That featured a team-up of the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Supermen and their respective Luthors, all of whom end up on Earth-3. There, the Justice League counterparts are criminals (the Crime Syndicate). Ultraman, Earth-3's Superman, aids the Luthors; but, the Supermen encounter that world's Alexander Luthor, who uses his super-science to become their first hero. His science works better than Lex and Alexei Luthor, because his judgement isn't clouded by thoughts of revenge and hatred. Alex is there to show a parallel to the Superman story, as he and Lois die, sending their child across the dimensional barrier to save him. This will be important to the entire story. Then, we see the Crime Syndicate go down, defending their universe, to show the stakes are high.
Firestorm is a nuclear-based hero, not a fire-specific one. He can transmute inorganic matter into other forms.
Arion was basically cannon fodder, to tie his past to the actions of the present, just as the Legion will be tied to it, in the future, to show that this threat goes across time and dimensional space. You don't know that the heroes will win (well, you do; but, it ain't gonna be easy), because the Legion, in the 30th Century, is facing the same universe-destroying threat. We see it in that future, and the ancient past of Anthro, across dimensions and parallel universes, affecting the physical and the magical.
Crisis, itself, really wasn't the place to be introduced to most of the characters. That would come in their own books. Crisis brought everyone together, launched a few new characters, and set events in motion to transform DC.
As I say, issue 1 is throwing you into the chaos. The next issues will see heroes and villains work together to make sense of it. Harbinger's collection of a team has specific reasons, that get revealed, though things don't go as planned (never does). Personally, I thought this series did much to re-establish the greatness of Superman, both the original form and the modern one, as well as truly capture the heroism of Supergirl. The series upped stakes with the bloodbath that flows across the 12 issues (and in the individual titles) and it had major repercussions (until some of it was undone, later). What it mostly did was bring the cosmic saga to DC, then upped the ante, big time. What happened after is what is really significant, as this is the real catalyst for DC's 1980s renaissance, though that really began around 1978, in bits and pieces) After this, it kicks off massively.
I read both DC and Marvel (and everyone else) from the time I began with comics (the Dawn of the Bronze Age). I tended to favor DC, as their characters acted more heroically, to my young eyes. Some of Marvel's got a bit too whiny (Spider-Man) when I read their adventures, in the 70s. Some I really liked, like Daredevil and the Defenders, as well as the better runs on Captain America and Avengers. Fantastic Four was hit and miss, in that era, and it would take a while for me to discover the really good stuff there. Meanwhile, Marvel's fringe books were their most interesting; things like Master of Kung Fu, Killraven, Deathlok, Steve Gerber's defenders, Howard the Duck, Kirby's Eternals, Roy Thomas' Invaders, and some of the stories in the try-out books, like Marvel Premiere and Marvel Spotlight.
DC had its wealth. Early 70s Batman, aside from O'Neil and Adams, had plenty of great stuff. Irv Novick handled a lot of it, and the later 70s Englehart/Rogers Batman, in Detective Comics, is some of the best, ever. Jim Aparo on Brave and the Bold had some great team-ups with Batman and guests. Michael Fleischer and Jim Aparo's Spectre was amazing and Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson's Manhunter (in Detective Comics) is the best adventure strip of the 70s, if not in comics' history. Denny O'Neil's "Kryptonite No More" Superman stories, from the early 70s, presented a new wrinkle to Superman and shook up the status quo, for a little while. After that, there are excellent stories from Cary Bates and Elliot Maggin, in the mid-70s. The best late-70s Superman is mostly in DC Comics Presents, the Superman team-up book. DC's war books had it all over Marvel's Sgt Fury, while Jonah Hex was pretty much the lone western left standing, and a great, mature take on the western. In fact, the writing in DC's war books and Jonah Hex was some of its best, with spectacular art, to boot.
Post-Crisis, DC starts to really push their characters into more mature boundaries, with John Byrne giving Superman a make-over, George Perez revamping a new Wonder Woman, which greatly informed the movie and most stories that followed. The Legion of Superheroes had already undergone a renaissance, under Paul Levitz and Kieth Giffen (The Great Darkness Saga) and would continue. Flash got a new take, that would inform the next couple of decades. new action-adventure material, like Suicide Squad, would become cult favorites and critical darlings. Justice League became a major hit, mixing biting humor and terrific action, much like the Gerber Defenders. DC made great use of Charlton Action Heroes Blue Beetle, the Question (in one of the most unique series, ever) and Captain Atom. The horror books were critical darlings, with Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (soon followed by Rick Eitch's) and Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol and Animal Man. They would soon e followed by Neil Gaiman's Sandman, launching what would become Vertigo. For my money, post-Crisis, DC's offerings were far more mature than the bulk of Marvel, especially as X-Men's glory days were behind them and innovation mostly fell in favor of the status quo. I went from reading a lot of Marvel in the 70s (and just as much DC) to reading very little Marvel, through the 80s and 90s, and a ton of DC and independents.
Regardless, it was interesting to see a different take on things and I look forward to more.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 3, 2018 5:57:52 GMT -5
nero9000, I would recommend following COIE with the History of the DC Universe 2-part special, which is fine way of seeing how post-COIE universe worked. Although COIE is one of the top hallmarks of 1980s comics overall, part of the reason it worked was the deep foundation and character history established in the 50 years of publishing before it. While "50 years" sounds like much to consider, for comics, certain key story lines or periods of character development actually run over the course of several years, so to experience the "why and how" leading up to COIE, you would not be required to scan through every page published in a 50 year period.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 10:13:05 GMT -5
I agree with cody. For me DC > Marvel in the 70's & 80's. I know sales didn't reflect that but I enjoyed DC's stories so much more in those decades. I like both companies but like DC a bit more overall than Marvel.
I was working in a LCS back then & there was more buzz about DC & Crisis than Marvel's Secret Wars.
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Post by rberman on Mar 3, 2018 10:51:29 GMT -5
codystarbuck, that was an excellent summary of much of the landscape of the late Silver and early Bronze Age. Someone jumping straight into Crisis has no idea which characters were historically central to DC continuity and which were peripheral, besides the Super Friends probably. (But where is Apache Chief?)
One of the conceits of the plot is the Crisis is trans-temporal, affecting the Legion of Superheroes in the 30th Century just as much as Jonah Hex in the late 19 century or the All Star Squadron in 1941. It does not make a lick of sense if you try to think about it for two seconds since by definition if something is present in the same state at all points in time, it is not “happening” at all. But it’s just a convention to fit all of the DC heroes into a single event no matter their era, without invoking a “Beyonder rips everyone out of their respective eras into.a pocket continuity” trope which would not have served the main goal of trying to fix and simplify the various discordant continuities, which were felt to be daunting to writers and off-putting to new readers.
The most obvious solution would have been simple editorial fiat, as when Marvel started the Uliimates line or magically moved Nick Fury forward a generation or... well, you can think of lots of examples. But for whatever reason, DC editorial felt it was important to cobble together an in-continuity fix for continuity, and thus this story emerged.
The exposition is not really heavier than the norm for this era. It is a necessary evil since it’s a foregone conclusion that not every regular DC reader, let alone newbies, would know all the ins and outs of all the different characters getting cameos and featured bits. I had never heard of the Psycho-Pirate myself when I read this at publication, but he manages to be a key player. I wonder whether Marv was inspired by Asimov’s character “The Mule.”
Did Luthor of Earth-2 ever have red hair?
The African Gorilla bit is touchy. There are actual Gorillas in Africa, so making one of them a telepathic genius is not absurd by comic book standards. But it’s hard to avoid thinking about some painful racial stereotypes. Maybe Grodd should have been a telepathic genius ibex or elephant.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 3, 2018 11:31:49 GMT -5
Did Luthor of Earth-2 ever have red hair? The Luthor of Earth=2 always had red hair. He didn't go bald which was one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Earth-2 version.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 3, 2018 11:53:31 GMT -5
I was kind of in your boat as well Nero when I read it. I was reading three DC titles in the 90's when I discovered COIE. I had no knowledge of the other Earths. And still to this day if I have a DC comic older than COIE it's a Batman or Detective issue.
I was impressed by Perez's art and impressed with the scope of the battles and story being told, even without knowing what it was DC was trying to do at the time. So while I own it and have read it several times, it's never wowed me as much as other events.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 11:57:02 GMT -5
rberman put it so well in the Secret Wars thread: It (Crisis) would certainly lose its impact for those who didn’t cut their teeth reading stories in the lineage of “Crisis on Two Earths,” or the annual JLA/JSA crossovers, etc.
I totally agree. New readers wouldn't enjoy it as much. But for those of us that read comics in the 60's & 70's it was mindblowing. It was the ultimate (good name for an imprint!) JLA/JSA crossover with everyone else thrown into the mix.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 3, 2018 13:29:53 GMT -5
Did Luthor of Earth-2 ever have red hair? The Luthor of Earth=2 always had red hair. He didn't go bald which was one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Earth-2 version. Well, yes and no. Alexei Luthor was the original and depicted with red hair. Then, there was the bald mad scientist, the Ultra-Humanite. In the ;ater newspaper strip, someone got it wrong and thought Ultra-Humanite was Luthor and we were off to the races with the bald Lex Luthor. I'm not 100% certain; but, I don't believe we saw an "Earth-2 Luthor" until the 70s. They started mixing some of the Earth-2 versions of the villains into the JLA/JSA crossovers. They had the Earth-2 Joker involved in the JLA/JSA/Shazam crossover. Once the showed a definite Earth-2 Luthor, they kept the red hair he had at the beginning, to distinguish him from Earth-1 Lex, much like the Earth-2 Superman had the differently styled S-symbol, based more on how it was drawn in the 40s (in some stories) or the Eagle of Wonder Woman's breast plate and hairdo, to distinguish those two versions. Ultra-Humanite was turned into the gorilla body, to remove him from the bald mad scientist cliche (and the female body his mind had been put into), when he was reused, later, in 1981 (JLA 195-197).
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 3, 2018 13:37:44 GMT -5
ps. The whole point of the title is to reflect the history of the parallel universe concept, begun in "Flash of Two Worlds." That meeting led to the JLA/JSA crossovers, which were titled "Crisis on...", starting with JLA #21 ("Crisis on Earth One") and 22 ("Crisis on Earth Two"). After that, their meeting was a Crisis. This was the ultimate; Crisis on Infinite Earths!
Personally, I always felt the rationale behind unifying things was false and robbed DC of some of its unique charm, especially the JSA. They had been allowed to grow older and have families, with a new generation introduced. That was unique. Plus, Captain Marvel worked better in his own little world, apart from Superman and the rest. It took quite a while for DC to really integrate the generational aspect, as, at first, they tried to bury the JSA (but the fans wouldn't have it). I don't think it was that difficult a concept to handle, as it was usually covered in a single panel. I can see paring the number down a bit; but, not to the point they did. The ironic thing is that Marvel had introduced its own parallel worlds, with the Squadron Supreme. DC eventually rolled back on the decision, though mostly after it had fallen into the doldrums in the regular books, after too many mega-crossovers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 14:14:19 GMT -5
Personally, I always felt the rationale behind unifying things was false and robbed DC of some of its unique charm, especially the JSA. They had been allowed to grow older and have families, with a new generation introduced. That was unique. Plus, Captain Marvel worked better in his own little world, apart from Superman and the rest. It took quite a while for DC to really integrate the generational aspect, as, at first, they tried to bury the JSA (but the fans wouldn't have it). I don't think it was that difficult a concept to handle, as it was usually covered in a single panel. I can see paring the number down a bit; but, not to the point they did. The ironic thing is that Marvel had introduced its own parallel worlds, with the Squadron Supreme. DC eventually rolled back on the decision, though mostly after it had fallen into the doldrums in the regular books, after too many mega-crossovers. I wished that they could have pared it down to maybe 6 Earths. I missed the multiple earth concept & how the one shared earth handicapped the JSA & Capt Marvel.
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