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Post by tarkintino on Mar 5, 2018 12:47:08 GMT -5
Actually, a few of my local comic shops had COIE posters (smaller 11x17 sized, if I recall) before the series' release. I worked in a LCS at that time. I don't remember any posters at that time. Are you sure you are not talking about the poster Perez did in 1999? No, I'm talking about posters distributed in advance of the series start. I lived in southern California at the time, and the poster was on the walls of a few of my regular comic shops, along with other DC posters.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2018 12:53:37 GMT -5
What Shax says. All the potential of an existence-threatening "crisis" in the mold of the traditional summer crossovers between the JLA and JSA, which would ahve been genuinely exciting was lost in the welter of confusion that resulted. Crisis might have been better if the less important worlds had been vaporized, perhaps, and a few characters had paid the ultimate price, but really, was it so frikkin' tough for readers to realize that Earths 1, 2, 3, S, X and whatever the cartoon world was, were separate?No. It wasn't. As I've said multiple times two of the earlier comics I bought were an issue of All-Star Comics and an issue of the JLA-JSA crossover with the Fawcett characters. I was, I think, nine years old at the time. It took a whole five or ten minutes for me to understand it. The problem was that DC's writers and/or editors couldn't seem to understand or keep it straight. And then the continuity obsessed fans would write in and be butt-hurt. So rather than actually editing the books or saying "oops we messed up" they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. The multiple earths thing was one of the few things that DC had that made it different than Marvel as the creator crossover between the two companies started to make them feel increasingly similar. So, of course, they got rid of that in order to further homogenize things. More specifically, the writers and editors coming over from Marvel. I think a contributing factor was the DC editorial structure, vs Marvel. DC had line editors and continuity depended heavily on that editor's viewpoint, vs Marvel where the EIC was editing the bulk of things, until the line expanded to the point you had sub-editors. DC editors had trained their audience to understand the parallel Earths; plus, you had an annual peek at them, in JLA. In the comics, it would be, often, a one panel explanation; a page, at most. That was all you needed. Later, they reinforced it with Ask The Answer Man, in the Daily Planet promotional pages. With the influx of talent from Marvel, I suspect there was a heavy push to Marvelize things, to make it easier for those guys to do the same kinds of stories they had at Marvel. It worked; but, I still think it would have worked with the structure in place, as Earth 1 and 2 were really the only ones in regular use and it was fairly easy to identify who belonged where. Shazam was a back-up feature, then, and the Freedom Fighters were in mothballs (on Earth 1); so, who cared about Earth X or S? Earth 3 hadn't been heard from, since its debut, until that DC Comics Presents Annual, nearly 20 years later. I do think everything needed to be started from square one, once they decided to do that in Superman and Wonder Woman. Too much was tied to those characters and making them new just created too many problems.
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Post by MDG on Mar 5, 2018 12:55:45 GMT -5
... Crisis might have been better if the less important worlds had been vaporized, perhaps, and a few characters had paid the ultimate price, but really, was it so frikkin' tough for readers to realize that Earths 1, 2, 3, S, X and whatever the cartoon world was, were separate?.... The problem was that DC's writers and/or editors couldn't seem to understand or keep it straight. And then the continuity obsessed fans would write in and be butt-hurt. So rather than actually editing the books or saying "oops we messed up" they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. The multiple earths thing was one of the few things that DC had that made it different than Marvel as the creator crossover between the two companies started to make them feel increasingly similar. So, of course, they got rid of that in order to further homogenize things. You guys have me this close to pulling out the issues and re-reading them for this first time since... I'll say 1992. Crisis (along with Who's Who and Ambush Bug) pulled me back to mainstream comics for a few years, but I can't say I enjoyed COIE either as "drama" or "universe maintenance." I remember when it became clear that the Earth-2 continuity was going to be thrown out with the bathwater, calling my friend, and being really depressed about it. Then, after "cleaning things up," all of a sudden there's "pocket universes," and a bunch of second stringers replacing Superman, Batman, and WW in the 40s. And despite some nice work by Tim Truman and others, I was never able to get back into Hawkman again (a longtime favorite). Here's the thing that bothered me: When Schwartz and Fox were in a situation where they were putting out books of The Flash and GL and the Atom that looked different from the 40s versions and were totally new characters, they said, "How can we address this?" not, "How can we fix this?" I think one approach is a lot more creative than the other. And validated the work of past creators, rather than looking at it as a problem.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2018 13:01:51 GMT -5
I worked in a LCS at that time. I don't remember any posters at that time. Are you sure you are not talking about the poster Perez did in 1999? No, I'm talking about posters distributed in advance of the series start. I lived in southern California at the time, and the poster was on the walls of a few of my regular comic shops, along with other DC posters. It's possible that they may have done some, though the Gerber quote says they didn't do it in huge numbers. It's also possible it could have been something done through a small group of distributors. Remember, at that point, there were far more regional distribution outlets than just Capital and Diamond. Maybe DC focused more on the coasts or maybe those distributors sent more of that out to clients than others. Still, 1986, in the wake of Crisis and with the attention Dark Knight and Watchmen were getting, is when DC really starts making large-scale marketing a regular feature. I remember a fairly healthy push for Legends and an even bigger one for Millennium. By the time of Invasion you are starting to get into the speculator boom, with all of the gimmick promotions.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 5, 2018 13:17:31 GMT -5
.... The problem was that DC's writers and/or editors couldn't seem to understand or keep it straight. And then the continuity obsessed fans would write in and be butt-hurt. So rather than actually editing the books or saying "oops we messed up" they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. The multiple earths thing was one of the few things that DC had that made it different than Marvel as the creator crossover between the two companies started to make them feel increasingly similar. So, of course, they got rid of that in order to further homogenize things. You guys have me this close to pulling out the issues and re-reading them for this first time since... I'll say 1992. Crisis (along with Who's Who and Ambush Bug) pulled me back to mainstream comics for a few years, but I can't say I enjoyed COIE either as "drama" or "universe maintenance." I remember when it became clear that the Earth-2 continuity was going to be thrown out with the bathwater, calling my friend, and being really depressed about it. Then, after "cleaning things up," all of a sudden there's "pocket universes," and a bunch of second stringers replacing Superman, Batman, and WW in the 40s. And despite some nice work by Tim Truman and others, I was never able to get back into Hawkman again (a longtime favorite). Here's the thing that bothered me: When Schwartz and Fox were in a situation where they were putting out books of The Flash and GL and the Atom that looked different from the 40s versions and were totally new characters, they said, "How can we address this?" not, "How can we fix this?" I think one approach is a lot more creative than the other. And validated the work of past creators, rather than looking at it as a problem. I know I liked Crisis when I was reading it. But even then I didn't think it was necessary. And throwing Earth-2 (particularly) out with the bathwater really annoyed me. At the time All-Star Squadron was one of my favorite books and I had a subscription to Infinity Inc. (I'm much less enamored of both at this point). And I became far less comfortable with Crisis as I realized the effects it would have. I will say that I'd never liked the Silver Age Hawkman and Hawkworld (particularly the Truman mini) is the only time I've actually read and cared about the character. I agree that they could have revitalized the characters without throwing everything out. But I think by that time we were already at at a point where hard-core fans and fan-writers/artists were driving the bus unlike the Silver Age reboot when there was only a handful of Golden Age readers left who actually cared.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 13:38:05 GMT -5
I worked in a LCS at that time. I don't remember any posters at that time. Are you sure you are not talking about the poster Perez did in 1999? No, I'm talking about posters distributed in advance of the series start. I lived in southern California at the time, and the poster was on the walls of a few of my regular comic shops, along with other DC posters. Hmm. The LCS I worked in was very small. Maybe the owner just didn't order any.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2018 14:57:33 GMT -5
No, I'm talking about posters distributed in advance of the series start. I lived in southern California at the time, and the poster was on the walls of a few of my regular comic shops, along with other DC posters. Hmm. The LCS I worked in was very small. Maybe the owner just didn't order any. Could have also have been just a promo fo the shops, not just give-aways. Might have been a one-to-a-client kind of thing or a premium with a certain order level.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 5, 2018 15:30:52 GMT -5
Stop the press! It's time for issue 2, before I learn the entire plot from this thread.
We start off with friggin' TARZAN! Isn't he a DC character? Serpent-nose? That's a mammoth, dude. Oh god, please don't be an important character. Apparently Tarzan is the smart one. Everyone else is too busy discussing their family lines to avoid getting trampled by a pack of wild serpent-noses. This issue is also proof cro-magnon and neanderthals could co-exist. LOL look he hit a twig! OMG this stuff is so lame! Why hasn't the force destroyed this earth yet? Oh, I get it now. It's going to destroy every earth and timeline except this one! The last 4 issues are going to be adventures of Anthro and his serpent-noses. Truly this power is evil beyond all comprehension!
Switching over to The Legion. Thank you! They have a fire-guy, too, and a fairly tiny Colossal Boy. He is the mighty Micro-Colossal Boy! Brainiac 5 is one of the top 20 best Brainiacs ever. One of the mammoths can talk and is flirting with Wildfire! Did not see that plot twist coming! Business is picking up. Micro-Colossal Boy finally turns into Giant Micro-Colossal Boy.
Things are picking up some more, as now the Batman is here. The destructive force is screwed! I can accept Batman, but Joker seems sooo out of place in this series. Batman with the ultimate clapback, before explaining the Joker's clue to him. Batman talking about how The Flash disappeared. I didn't read this! Is this like one of those crossovers that spread into every title? Somebody killed Iris! You bastards!
The top 15 DC has to offer are still here. Who's the stupid poltroon? GF. Girlfriend? Gorilla asks the obvious question. Why them? Turns out they are the cannon fodder. After they're dead we'll summon the real heroes. "None of us does". Old Superman speaks bad. Wait, I thought Lyla and Harbinger were the same person? Is this one of those DC style secret identities? Harbinger will end up being a traitor or something?
I think I saw the blue guys in a Futurama ep. Ohh, and they're gone. Nice guardianing of the universe, you guys.
Superman knows you only need him and Batman to save the day. Screw this crossover stuff! This Pariah guy is a new character, too?
Another Tarzan. This is blasphemous to say, but Kamandi is a bit lame. The last boy on earth. Except for this Dr. Camus dude, I guess. I wasn't paying attention, but I think his timeline is older than the Legion timeline, so he must be their ancestor! Hopefully we'll see Czar Simian in this story.
Ok, the shadow thing that ambushed Harbinger has taken her over.
Don't be like that, depressed gray-haired guy. You can use a bit of cheering up! Good call bringing the crazy villain in to save the universe. I just realized I have no idea why all the characters are where they are and what they're supposed to accomplish. Maybe you can go back in time and bring in another Psycho-Pirate? Or even the same guy? No? Raven. Yes, bring in some big stars already!
Ok, all the heroes are here to activate machines. Captain Boomerang coulda done that.
Did they just kill Arion and his crew? Dunno, it's a cliffhanger!
Part 2 over. I guess I preferred part 1. It had fodder for much better commentary. So far this story doesn't really feel like Crisis, except for the confusing super-cosmic stuff. But mostly its just a bunch of jobbers hanging around in random places. I'm kinda getting used to some of the characters, though, so if they killed/end up killing some of them, maybe I'll feel something.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2018 16:39:14 GMT -5
Crisis took place across the entire DC line. Everyone was involved.
Iris had died a few years before this event, murdered by Prof. Zoom, the Reverse Flash.
Dr Canus us part of a line of mutated and evolved animals; Kamandi is the last intelligent human child. It was a twist on Planet of the Apes and actually a pretty good series, once it got going.
Pariah was created for Crisis and saw limited use afterward. He wasn't much of a character, beyond being a voice of doom, and being tied to the start of events.
Lyla is transformed into Harbinger and was able to split into multi-dimensional forms, so she could appear on different worlds and dimensions simultaneously.
Anthro was a cult character and was mostly satire, from the brilliant mind and hands of Howie Post, who had a long career at Harvey (Hot Stuff). It was, partly, a satire of the youth movement of the 60s, as Antrho isn't understood by his neanderthal father.
Joker wasn't particularly used well, within Crisis and never really does mix well, outside of Batman, Remember, though, large amounts of Crisis take place within other titles, so events related to specific characters often occurred there.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 7, 2018 14:31:48 GMT -5
Haha, I accidentally killed the thread. People took stop the press literally. Whoops! It's now time for the INFAMOUS Crisis issue 3, which rumors say caused some fans to lose faith with the series and drop it completely! Will it be the end for this series of reviews as well? Stay tuned!The Monitor stuff is probably the most boring stuff in the series. Nobody likes cosmic masterminds talking to themselves. Apparently he's also found Marcus Immortus. Because that worked so well for the other guys. Or is he a Franklin Richards type stargod plot device? I should have paid more attention. I can't remember what happened with the Psycho-Pirate. He's like trying to be a mastermind, but a silhouette won't let him. Wolfman refers to the dialogue as meaningless prattle. You wrote it! Welcome, Flash... to die! He refers to his last month as a month of happiness. Ever since Iris died? That's cold, dude! He's so scared of an energy spehere he starts shaking into a ball. Teen Titans powers are almost without limits (this is DC, after all). Unfortunately, the energy eats no limits for breakfast. Nightwing trying to be really cool on his bike. Not in that outfit you're not! "Our powers are limitless! Wait, my sword can't break the ice! We're doomed!" Katana can talk. The building is one of the Titans! This is the cool moment of this issue. Coolest bit since the flirting mammoth. Speaking of which, here comes another talking elephant! Starfire don't give a damn about earth, only Tamaran. Rainbow-girl assumes the child's gender, like a BIGOT! Nightwing's dialogue in the wrong order? He screams for Donna, but it's too late! Maybe you shoulda yelled at her before explaining to yourself what's happening? She can't survive a crashing building? All the A-listers are here now. What happened to the top 15? I'm getting major Infinity Gauntlet vibes here, BTW. I guess Starlin was a fan. Starfire won't let the earth get conquered, after all. Good thing they're only destroying it. Flash is relaxing his internal vibrations... Flash appearing out of nowhere reminds me of B vs S. Haha, that's the nastiest thing I've said about this series so far! Chris Jericho is here to help out, too. Wait, this wasn't The Flash's death already, surely? We find out this is all a plan by Brainiac! Wait, no it isn't. Even the Kubert-verse isn't safe from this nonsense. If the Monitor had smarts, he'd bring in some proper American fighting men from the greatest generation to save the day! Confederate flag? Problematic! Some jock insults a nerd with glasses. Problematic! I want him to actually have four eyes. A cloud of smog turns up and basically says "sometimes losers win. j/k, winners win". Now some of the magnificient 15 are here. Oh, the bug is on the good guys side. Good thing I wasn't in the tank, cuz I woulda blasted that thing. Apparently there were hippies in WWII. It turns out this is all a plot by the NAZIS! No wait, no it isn't. Oh, Losers is the team name. Thanks for that one, Eisenhower. If I was Kubert, I'd be hella pissed at all my guys getting killed like redshirts in some over-the-top cosmic caper. Blue Beetle was bought from Charlton just so they could kill him like a punk, too. No, he's saved by the Monitor! He was a failure, so he was written out the series. Old Superman admits to being a wimp. What the!? They killed Solovar the gorilla! Please don't die! Don't leave me! No wonder people stopped reading this series at issue 3! That's it, I'm done! I'm outta here! ...Ok, I'm back now. I think they just wrote him out like with The Beetle. This is BS! I don't remember him even getting injured! Please come back, Solovar. No, instead we get cowboys who are looking to give up women. Ok, this stuff is like the drum solo in a rock concert. Whew, good thing we get some superheroes! "I'd never hurt no woman": Dude, you just killed her for all you knew. Looks like they killed Psimon. I hope no one was a fan, cuz he went out like a chump, too. Nevermind, everyone's dropping like flies now. I hope no one ever read any of those titles or anything. I guess the guys from last issue are gone, too. Cliffhanger as the Monitor is about to go, too. Might as well by this point. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, evaluation. This was the best issue so far, I had a lot to say, and we got some big stars in it so it started to feel like a Crisis. I can see why people said you gotta know all the chars beforehand, though. Everybody is just cannonfodder. Even the guys who showed glimpses of personality in the first issues were just random goons here. Still, if I was actually a fan of any of these characters, I'd be pissed as all hell! They're getting absolutely no respect here. If I didn't know this series is meant to destroy everything, I'd guess there's a big reset at the last issue that fixes everything. Can also see that one poster quitting the title at this point. It's just too ambitious in trying to squeeze every character in. Now, the idea of starting off with one group, and then switching characters midway is actually a pretty intriguing idea, but I think Wolfman is just too obsessed with sticking absolutely everybody in there. Just lose the out-of-time guys and non-superheroes. Marvel's Infinity stuff had a ton of guys, too, but at least they could focus on a couple of them. Starlin totally ripped off Crisis for his stuff, though.
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Post by rberman on Mar 7, 2018 15:14:34 GMT -5
Perhaps others here are in the same boat that I am: I remember reading the whole Crisis series (most recently, probably 15--20 years ago) and know the overall story (multiverses go boom; Pariah, Monitor, and Harbinger assemble a team to stop it; cameos from every character DC owns), but as far as individual issues, it's all a big haze. So when I read your (Nero9000's) responses to individual panels, I don't really know what you're talking about. You might consider giving a precis of the plot of the individual issue before giving your play-by-play reactions. Otherwise, now that we've all got our overall thoughts about COIE posted in this thread, there may be some chirping crickets.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 7, 2018 15:37:18 GMT -5
Perhaps others here are in the same boat that I am: I remember reading the whole Crisis series (most recently, probably 15--20 years ago) and know the overall story (multiverses go boom; Pariah, Monitor, and Harbinger assemble a team to stop it; cameos from every character DC owns), but as far as individual issues, it's all a big haze. So when I read your (Nero9000's) responses to individual panels, I don't really know what you're talking about. You might consider giving a precis of the plot of the individual issue before giving your play-by-play reactions. Otherwise, now that we've all got our overall thoughts about COIE posted in this thread, there may be some chirping crickets. And add a few pictures. Then we'll know what you're scragging. It was 1986, after all.
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 7, 2018 15:45:50 GMT -5
Ohh, ok. I thought everyone knew this stuff by heart. Or at least owned the issues. I'll try to be more descriptive.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 7, 2018 16:28:05 GMT -5
Ohh, ok. I thought everyone knew this stuff by heart. Or at least owned the issues. I'll try to be more descriptive. Pictures be pretty. Old guys like pictures.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 7, 2018 17:10:16 GMT -5
Iris was revealed to be alive, in the future, and Barry joins here, for a short time, before the beginning of Crisis. Yep, death had just become un-permanent. Well, more than usual.
I was never a fan of bringing the WW2 characters into the main DCU. They had been treated separately, until Sgt Rock turned up in Brave and the Bold (Blackhawk's a bit different). Despite a good Superman and Rock crossover (DC Comics Presents #10), it robbed those characters of what made them interesting. Same with Warlord, though that was a bit less jarring, in the end.
Beetle isn't gone for good and was the one Charlton character who got any screen time in all of this. The idea for the Charlton characters was originally to be a weekly anthology title, until that was killed. We see the rest, in the series; but, Beetle gets the most screen time. I assume he was Wolfman's favorite, as Captain Atom is more powerful; but, doesn't get to do much in tho whole thing.
A lot of the appearances within Crisis were two-fold: one to show the characters from across their history (since it was the 50th Anniversary of the company) and two, to keep the trademarks alive. Who's Who in the DC Universe, which acted as a companion to this (and beyond), served this purpose even more.
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