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Post by MDG on Mar 9, 2018 14:31:54 GMT -5
We're kind of missing the point here. Crisis was never meant to draw in new fans; it was a celebration of DC's 50 years as a publisher. Secret Wars was intended to be a toy tie-in, so it was kept simpler. Those were the marching orders for the series. Crisis then became a place to supposedly create a new, streamlined continuity so that the ex-Marvel writers could do Marvel-style stories, without tons of research and editorial footnotes. Secret Wars, since it pulled characters out of normal continuity, let Shooter and others play around a bit with characters. Some things stuck, some were abandoned. I don't know that "celebration" is the right word--you don't celebrate 50 years by writing your flagship character out of continuity and killing off the one that kicked off the silver age. Since Secret Origins and Who's Who were coming out around the same time, they could've used those to acquaint people to and "celebrate" DC's history. But, water under the bridge... Huh. I thought of Marvel as the place for continuity and editorial footnotes to rival a college thesis. Avengers, FF, and X-Men were always talking about stuff that had happened in the past. John Byrne and Chris Claremont seemed sometimes to be on a mission from God to correct continuity errors and injustices of the past. I never got that from Byrne and Claremont. Roy Thomas at DC, on the other hand... Englehart was probably the best writer at "revealing" history without making it seem shoehorned in or forced.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 9, 2018 21:08:07 GMT -5
We're kind of missing the point here. Crisis was never meant to draw in new fans; it was a celebration of DC's 50 years as a publisher. Exactly. For the endless numbers of fans who were longtime readers and familiar with the worlds and past events of the characters involved, Crisis would have a strong impact--which was the case, considering COIE's success. But as much as COIE was attracting longtime readers, the fact that it was "cleaning"/"straightening out" the then 50 year history allowed new readers to step into DC not feeling put off and/or intimidated by such a massive history. I knew new DC readers in that position. ...and its apparent from the plot being so much like the kind of plot a kid would create with his action figures.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 9, 2018 21:36:41 GMT -5
We're kind of missing the point here. Crisis was never meant to draw in new fans; it was a celebration of DC's 50 years as a publisher. Exactly. For the endless numbers of fans who were longtime readers and familiar with the worlds and past events of the characters involved, Crisis would have a strong impact--which was the case, considering COIE's success. But as much as COIE was attracting longtime readers, the fact that it was "cleaning"/"straightening out" the then 50 year history allowed new readers to step into DC not feeling put off and/or intimidated by such a massive history. I knew new DC readers in that position. Yeah, Crisis was a sales success and it certainly did what DC wanted from it - re-engergized and increased sales of their product. The corporate bottom line is always the most important element for mainstream IP factory comics, so from DC/Time Warner's POV it was a huge success. And while most of the changes wrought by Crisis were undone (Yay!) it definitely created the culture of constant line-wide rebooting which both Marvel and DC still use regularly to this day. Barry Allen is back? Irrelevant. Crisis defined how nostalgia driven superhero comics are marketed to the Wednesday Warrior crowd as much as any other book. Well, okay, Crisis and Man of Steel with it's $%^7$%^& #$&*()& #$^&*()& variant covers.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 10, 2018 1:07:34 GMT -5
We're kind of missing the point here. Crisis was never meant to draw in new fans; it was a celebration of DC's 50 years as a publisher. Secret Wars was intended to be a toy tie-in, so it was kept simpler. Those were the marching orders for the series. Crisis then became a place to supposedly create a new, streamlined continuity so that the ex-Marvel writers could do Marvel-style stories, without tons of research and editorial footnotes. Secret Wars, since it pulled characters out of normal continuity, let Shooter and others play around a bit with characters. Some things stuck, some were abandoned. I don't know that "celebration" is the right word--you don't celebrate 50 years by writing your flagship character out of continuity and killing off the one that kicked off the silver age. Since Secret Origins and Who's Who were coming out around the same time, they could've used those to acquaint people to and "celebrate" DC's history. But, water under the bridge... Huh. I thought of Marvel as the place for continuity and editorial footnotes to rival a college thesis. Avengers, FF, and X-Men were always talking about stuff that had happened in the past. John Byrne and Chris Claremont seemed sometimes to be on a mission from God to correct continuity errors and injustices of the past. I never got that from Byrne and Claremont. Roy Thomas at DC, on the other hand... Englehart was probably the best writer at "revealing" history without making it seem shoehorned in or forced. Well, like I say, the "intent" of what evolved into Crisis was to be the 50th Anniversary celebration; but, as they developed it, it morphed into something more. Wolfman has talked about how he only had one or two key deaths, in his plot; but, editorial wanted to push the stakes higher. The original working title was History of the DC Universe and I always had the impression that the earliest plot ideas were something more along the lines of what the final History of the DCU ended up, though with more action and a longer run; but, then got tagged as a way to streamline things, since they were talking about pulling everything into it. This is from memory, and I haven't really read any in-depth interviews about the whole evolution of Crisis, from idea to execution. It's been more snippets, here and there. Certain Marvel editors were sticklers about continuity; but, others weren't as much into it. Roy definitely was. DC's footnotes tended to be relatively short. Usually, parallel Earth stories had anywhere from a couple of panels to a one (two-page, max) page synopsis of the background of the world and then moved on with the plot. Bob Rozakis regularly explained (though the questions themselves might be asking about specific characters) the differences in Ask The Answer Man. DC readers never seemed to have much problem with it and such stories didn't appear routinely. I still think the push came from Marvel talent, who wanted to use characters from different Earths, without contriving a crossover macguffin. Len Wein is the name I have seen attached to the continuity issue, in relation to Crisis; but, I wonder whether Gerry Conway and some of the others who came over might have put the bug in his ear. It didn't seam like Roy had a problem with it, as he ran with it in All-Star Squadron. Conway probably ran into more than anyone else, since he was writing JLA, with the annual crossovers.
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Post by spoon on Mar 10, 2018 11:24:12 GMT -5
Stop the press! It's time for issue 2, before I learn the entire plot from this thread.Switching over to The Legion. Thank you! They have a fire-guy, too, and a fairly tiny Colossal Boy. He is the mighty Micro-Colossal Boy! Brainiac 5 is one of the top 20 best Brainiacs ever. One of the mammoths can talk and is flirting with Wildfire! Did not see that plot twist coming! Business is picking up. The top 15 DC has to offer are still here. Who's the stupid poltroon? GF. Girlfriend? Wait, I thought Lyla and Harbinger were the same person? Is this one of those DC style secret identities? Harbinger will end up being a traitor or something? This Pariah guy is a new character, too? Snipped down your post just to answer a few questions. I don't know if you're joking or they're serious questions. The talking mammoth is Changling. He's the Legionnaire with antennas the others are calling Reep (because his real name is Reep Daggle). He's a shapechanger, and he's trying to lead the mammoths away. GF is Geo-Force, the Outsider wearing green and yellow. I don't think the heroes and villains the Monitor has assembled realize Lyla and Harbinger are the same person yet. Hey, she's got a more elaborate disguise than Clark Kent! Yes, Pariah is a new character. He's from some unnamed Earth destroyed before the first page of issue 1. He keeps getting transported where bad Crisis stuff is happening. His backstory will be addressed a bit later.
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Post by spoon on Mar 10, 2018 11:51:10 GMT -5
So I re-read #2 and #3.
I love how Marv Wolfman juxtaposes ancient times and the far future by having Anthro's time and the Legion's time blend into each other. Also, the Legion is cool.
The scene of Batman busting through the window looks like an homage to the cover of Batman #374 (https://www.comics.org/issue/876925/cover/4/) by the late great Don Newton and inked (like the early issues of Crisis) by Dick Giordano. Newton, who is my favorite Batman artist, died in 1984. If this was an intentional tribute, I think it's a great one. I like the portrayal of the Joker, complaining about jurisdiction. There's a sense of fatalism at points in Crisis. We're shown things that are going to happen, like with the Flash, and the interest is finding out how it happens and what it means. By the way, the Flash disappearing in #350 is also a spoiler, because Flash #345 has the same cover date as Crisis #2.
I love the panel layouts during the briefing by the Monitor. Perez is a master at doing numerous, smaller panels.
So the voice in the Central Power Battery tells the Guardians that this began with them centuries ago. This is where historian super-fans were probably getting ideas.
It's fascinating that Pariah knows about Superman and Batman before the Crisis, while no one knows him. Wouldn't it be easier if Batman stayed in Gotham for the meeting and Superman traveled there? I guess Gotham doesn't have any scenic rooftops.
The Monitor has a strange mix of foresight and short-sightedness. He picks allies who don't work out, like Psycho-Pirate here in #2 and finding that Blue Beetle's scarab isn't helpful enough in #3. Of course, he knows about some of the "surprises" like Lyla's betrayal. I don't remember which of his mistakes were mistakes and which were planned. The Psycho-Pirate is very interesting as a villain. He's like an addict, so there's pity and frustration mixed up in the feelings he evokes in a reader (or at least this reader).
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 10, 2018 12:13:05 GMT -5
Yeah, Crisis was a sales success and it certainly did what DC wanted from it - re-engergized and increased sales of their product. The corporate bottom line is always the most important element for mainstream IP factory comics, so from DC/Time Warner's POV it was a huge success. COIE would not have been a success if it did not touch the readers. That's the heart of the series' power--on the readers, who were captivated by their heroes' struggles, all playing into what they knew about each throughout several generatons' worth of stories and characterization. The people made their voice and support known for COIE, and as it should (but rarely) work in that industry, the profits were a direct result of the overflowing reader interest, not a marketing gimmick, like Secret Wars.
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Post by spoon on Mar 10, 2018 12:19:15 GMT -5
And now on to #3.
The mastermind manipulating Harbinger and Psycho-Pirate is cloaked in shadow. Wolfman and Perez do a good job drawing out the reveal. Psycho-Pirate calls Harbinger unstable. Someone tell the master of emotions that's called projection. I guess it's true too, though.
The credits tell us this issue was inked by both Dick Giordano and Mike DeCarlo. I wish Giordano could've stuck around longer. But I'm sure he had a lot of editorial/management responsibilities and he was in his 50s. I don't have huge confidence in my inking recognition skills, but I'd guess DeCarlo started with the page with Wonder Girl's lasso helping survivors down the side of the building. At the very least, I think DeCarlo did the WWII stuff and the pages after that.
A lot of the ways Wolfman combines things seems intentional. Here, he includes one of DC's classic pairings (Batman and Superman) what I consider a memorable pairing of the 1980s (the Outsiders and the New Teen Titans). They had a crossover a couple years earlier. Even though she had a brief tenure, I like Kole. Maybe her design is dated, but I think it's cool.
Who knew so many of DC's military characters were in Markovia at the same time? It's fun to see these characters from genres I don't read much. Re-reading this makes me curious to sample a few war comics. Because this is DC, we have some weird genre mash-ups like Haunted Tank. That's some Lost Cause fetishization. But because I go to Wikipedia all the time, I learned it's not just an American Confederate fetish, but a British one as well! The ghost of Confederate General J.E.B. Stuart watches over his namesake descendant and his namesake tank. The tank model is the M3 Stuart. Except the U.S., which built it, just named it the M3. It was the British, using it under the Lend-Lease program, who decided to add the name of a Confederate General!
It's too bad Blue Beetle had to be removed from the action. But I'm sure he'll turn up later. Wink, wink.
So they decided to kill off Kid Psycho, technically only a reserve member of the Legion. I guess they tried to find a Legionnaire who has zero ardent fans.
"It's time for you to die!" Oh, silly Harbinger. You declare that as if the Monitor doesn't know it's coming.
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Post by spoon on Mar 10, 2018 14:51:00 GMT -5
I don't know that "celebration" is the right word--you don't celebrate 50 years by writing your flagship character out of continuity and killing off the one that kicked off the silver age. Since Secret Origins and Who's Who were coming out around the same time, they could've used those to acquaint people to and "celebrate" DC's history. But, water under the bridge... I never got that from Byrne and Claremont. Roy Thomas at DC, on the other hand... Englehart was probably the best writer at "revealing" history without making it seem shoehorned in or forced. Well, like I say, the "intent" of what evolved into Crisis was to be the 50th Anniversary celebration; but, as they developed it, it morphed into something more. Wolfman has talked about how he only had one or two key deaths, in his plot; but, editorial wanted to push the stakes higher. The original working title was History of the DC Universe and I always had the impression that the earliest plot ideas were something more along the lines of what the final History of the DCU ended up, though with more action and a longer run; but, then got tagged as a way to streamline things, since they were talking about pulling everything into it. This is from memory, and I haven't really read any in-depth interviews about the whole evolution of Crisis, from idea to execution. It's been more snippets, here and there. Certain Marvel editors were sticklers about continuity; but, others weren't as much into it. Roy definitely was. DC's footnotes tended to be relatively short. Usually, parallel Earth stories had anywhere from a couple of panels to a one (two-page, max) page synopsis of the background of the world and then moved on with the plot. Bob Rozakis regularly explained (though the questions themselves might be asking about specific characters) the differences in Ask The Answer Man. DC readers never seemed to have much problem with it and such stories didn't appear routinely. I still think the push came from Marvel talent, who wanted to use characters from different Earths, without contriving a crossover macguffin. Len Wein is the name I have seen attached to the continuity issue, in relation to Crisis; but, I wonder whether Gerry Conway and some of the others who came over might have put the bug in his ear. It didn't seam like Roy had a problem with it, as he ran with it in All-Star Squadron. Conway probably ran into more than anyone else, since he was writing JLA, with the annual crossovers. There were actually house ads months before Crisis on Infinite Earths started that advertised the series as "Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths." I have heard (maybe upthread, maybe elsewhere) that the 2-part History of the DC Universe mini-series was originally supposed to be the last two issue of Crisis, so I'm not so sure the whole series was supposed to be like that. History of the DCU is like a history lesson rather than an exciting adveture. It's geared to a narrower group of hardcore fans. I've heard that one idea was to introduce new heroes and replace some of the existing heroes with counterparts that would give the DCU greater ethnic/gender diversity. Supposedly, the new Doctor Light was part of that, but otherwise it seems that plan was abandoned.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 10, 2018 16:09:22 GMT -5
Always had a soft spot for Kid Psycho. Back in the Silver Age, his name was just a weird name. I wonder what a modern fan thinks about it when he hears it for the first time. Maybe that he's Dexter's son?
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Post by nero9000 on Mar 10, 2018 16:22:59 GMT -5
Always had a soft spot for Kid Psycho. Back in the Silver Age, his name was just a weird name. I wonder what a modern fan thinks about it when he hears it for the first time. Sounds like Kid Insane. I guess it was because he had psychic powers or something. Hah, I didn't even notice this kid was in the story...
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 10, 2018 16:44:35 GMT -5
That's what I figured it would sound like.
But his story was classic Silver Age pathos.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2018 16:46:23 GMT -5
I never got that from Byrne and Claremont. Roy Thomas at DC, on the other hand... Oh Byrne definitely loved to fill in some perceived continuity glitch - for example, his "return to Central City" story in F4, though I agree he was nowhere near as obsessional about them as Roy Thomas could be
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Post by spoon on Mar 10, 2018 16:55:11 GMT -5
Always had a soft spot for Kid Psycho. Back in the Silver Age, his name was just a weird name. I wonder what a modern fan thinks about it when he hears it for the first time. Maybe that he's Dexter's son? So I was wrong. Every character has an ardent fan. Element Lad yelling for Kid Psycho is a moment that's stuck in my head. It sounds like a mocking name (like Fatty or Four-Eyes), so it weird to have him call out the name out of concern for his well-being. It's such a Legion thing, like when a duplicate of Supergirl became Satan Girl, or Matter-Eater Lad's power to eat stuff.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Mar 10, 2018 17:46:59 GMT -5
The talking mammoth is Changling. He's the Legionnaire with antennas the others are calling Reep (because his real name is Reep Daggle). He's a shapechanger, and he's trying to lead the mammoths away. Do you mean Chameleon Boy? Changeling was one of the Teen Titans.
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