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Post by badwolf on May 12, 2018 17:52:48 GMT -5
Kick is completely different...we'll find out later...
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Post by rberman on May 12, 2018 21:45:25 GMT -5
Kick is completely different...we'll find out later... Yes... though there are still ways he could have affirmed a continuity between the two, if he had known about MGH in the first place, or his editors had told him.
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Post by rberman on May 13, 2018 8:07:15 GMT -5
Excursus: Quentin QuireBefore we see what Jean does to Emma for messing around with her husband, I wanted to take a look at the main villain of this arc, in his own words. His is a story of adolescence, but not the one we usually get to see in comic books, because we don’t often get to spend this much time with an evolving villain before he starts doing the things that get him sent to jail or the mortuary. Also because most comic book writers lack sufficient insight to write a villain with more complex motivations than "Rule everything" or "Destroy everything." In the immortal words of Emma Frost from the last issue, "And then what? Then what?" But Quentin lives in community with our heroes. He says a lot of conflicting things about his motivations, which I believe represents actual conflict within him, as opposed to just inconsistent characterization. When we first meet him, he’s actually trying to help his classmate Martha. We also see his classmate Tattoo’s disdain for him, as the words “He is a dork” appear on her face. We quickly learn of his infatuation with the Stepford Cuckoos, especially Sophie. Others notice this; Herman shares his longing, and as events progress, the Cuckoos feel unsafe around him. Even after Quentin wins Tattoo to his team, he’s indifferent to her sexual advances, because his interests lie elsewhere. (Is Morrison also suggesting that Quire is a racist who seeks to mate with Aryans like the Cuckoos but turns down a willing, sexy black lady? Maybe.) Real teens sometimes go through a stalkerish phase and learn not to do it, but popular teen media often plays up weird, sexually aggressive behavior as romantic, which is not great. Here's an insightful essay about this from none other than 80s teen queen Molly Ringwald. Another level of Quentin’s crisis is existential. Grant Morrison is (or was, circa 2001) fascinated by the pop psychology/self-help pseudoscience movement represented by the books Exo-Psychology (Timothy Leary, 1977), Prometheus Rising (Robert Anton Wilson, 1983), and The Sekhmet Hypothesis (Iain Spence, 1995). These books purport to explain human consciousness as a movement through various stages of development along one of several possible parallel lines, with particular focus to personality types of “I’m Okay” (or not) and “You’re Okay” (or not) which give rise to four possible combinations. These are said to cycle generationally, supposedly due to dormant genes re-activating in response to changes in the solar cycle that gives rise to sunspots(!). Quentin’s surface presentation is “I’m Okay, You’re not Okay” (the combination known as “Hostile Strength”) but ultimately shows himself to be “I’m not Okay, You’re not Okay” (“Hostile Weakness”). Leary didn't see "hostile" as "bad," suggesting that there was a socially adaptive form of this outlook. But authors in his wake would claim that only "I'm okay, you're okay" was a worthy combination. I've heard "I'm okay, you're okay" my whole life but didn't realize that it was linked to all this psychological voodoo. Books like those of Leary and Wilson tend to be long on speculation and personal anecdote, while short on the rigorous science of reproducible experimentation that would cause real psychologists to take them seriously. But their paradigms and charts have a way of capturing the imagination of laypeople, who use them as a guide that seems more scientific and modern than the Bible or other ancient “This is what life is about” texts. It always helps if you can throw in some references to Quantum Physics to sound impressive! Morrison doesn’t use any of these terms in New X-Men, but in interviews he talks about them, and apparently his 450 page nonfiction manifesto Supergods goes into this quite a bit. Morrison’s beliefs underlie his presentation of Quentin Quire, who goes all Holden Caufield “Everyone is a phony” after learning that his “parents” have lied to him about his actual parentage. My own teen son recently told me that The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger is “a really good book that I would read even if it wasn’t assigned in school.” He’s not the first to be drawn in by Caufield’s messianic delusion that he is the only honest man in the world, and his job is to catch everyone else before they run off the cliff. In reality, “You’re a phony” is a cheap shot used as a weapon to justify writing other people off, and Holden is just as phony as everybody else. So is Quentin, and his lack of self-awareness will prove catastrophic. Other times, he sees himself as taking a stand for mutant rights, with Magneto as a model and hero, and also adopting a whip he once saw Sub-Mariner using. Due to the hormonal changes of puberty, finding a non-parental role model is a common phase of adolescence, and the choice of role model often proves pivotal in determining what kind of man the boy becomes. In Quentin's case, the discovery of his unknown parentage gives him additional incentive to attach himself to new parent-figures as soon as possible, giving himself soil in which to grow. Quentin says several times that his new behavior reflects the fact that he has "grown up." This is a lie. The wisest people see how much growing up is still ahead of them, not how much is behind them. Quentin chooses poorly in rejecting Xavier as a mentor and allowing the vintage non-heroic versions of Magneto and Namor to be his heroes rather than their older, chastened, heroic selves: Sometimes he admits he has no idea what he’s doing and will probably just become a martyr: Finally at the end, his seeming ravings will turn out to be very important a year from now: “The real enemy inside all along…” bookmark that thought. So, yeah, there’s a lot going on here that doesn’t fit into comic book adolescence. This is an actual adult thinking about adolescence, not adults telling kids what they want to hear, that inside every Peter Parker is a Spider-Man just waiting to shed his skin and vault through the air. Some kids have Peter Parker inside. But some have Willie Lumpkin, and some have Venom.
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Post by rberman on May 14, 2018 5:38:04 GMT -5
New X-Men #139 “Shattered” (June 2003)
The Story: Jean Grey-Summers storms into Emma Frost’s mind, interrupting a psychic liaison she’s having with Scott Summers. Jean kicks Scott out. Everyone in the mansion feels the effects of Jean’s psychic rage one way or another. Then surprisingly, Jean tries to have a reasonable conversation with Emma. Only when Emma blows her off does Jean go all Phoenix. When Jean dives into Emma’s memories of childhood, suddenly Emma becomes contrite and pleading. Too late; it’s time for an episode of “This is Your Life, Emma Frost.” We meet her rich, domineering father; her sedative-addicted mother; her bohemian musician brother Christian who goes insane; her annoying sisters Cordelia and Adrienne. We see that Emma had neither her face nor her body going for, prior to plastic surgery. Emma rejects her family fortune and becomes a dancer at the Hellfire Club, using telepathy to make men desire her. Men including Sebastian Shaw, who takes her for his consort, and together they (really meaning: she through him) take over the Hellfire Club. Just then Scott physically bursts into the room and insists that Jean read his mind. She learns that Emma did make a bedroom advance on Scott last year in Hong Kong, but Scott rebuffed her: “It’s Jean or nothing.” (Or Colleen, or Lee, or Maddy. If you can’t be with the one you love…) Charles Xavier hobbles in too and tells Jean to chill out. Jean stalks off; Scott takes off on Logan’s motorcycle; Logan consoles Emma, who confesses that she isn’t just messing with Scott and Jean; she has sincerely fallen for Scott. Later that night, Hank McCoy drops by Emma’s room with a dozen red roses, a bottle of white wine, and a favorite book to give her… and finds her in diamond form, on the floor, in about 100,000 tiny pieces. My Two Cents: You like X-Men as a superhero soap opera? You get it, man! Finally Grant Morrison grants us the Jean/Emma confrontation I was expecting a year ago when Jean first found out that Emma had propositioned her husband. Jean’s rage is understandable, and I am puzzled that Morrison seems to be casting her as the bad one due to Scott’s defense of, “We were only thinking; we didn’t do anything physical.” All the X-Men seem more disturbed by Jean showing Phoenix powers than they are by Emma’s sexual aggressiveness which generated the temptation which led to Scott betraying his wife. Even Logan is taking Emma’s side against Jean. What’s up with that? Are they all just that blasé about telepathic adultery? I am firmly on the side of “telepathic infidelity is actual infidelity;” emotional affairs can be just as damaging as physical ones. Don’t go there, kids. One challenge Jean has: She works with only guys. Where are Storm, Psylocke, Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Stevie Hunter, Moira McTaggart, Rogue, or any of the other X-women? She needs somebody to hang out with besides Emma “Ice Queen” Frost even when Emma isn’t fomenting divorce. Last issue, Emma and Scott were physically in the mansion's rose garden while their minds were in a boudoir. This issue, they are physically in Emma’s bedroom. I attribute this minor continuity gaffe to the change-over in artists; this issue is by Phil Jiminez, who was probably working on it at the same time that Frank Quitely was drawing the previous arc. It is way more compromising to put Scott physically in Emma’s bedroom. Along the same lines, Jiminez has his own ideas about what the mansion looks like. It's not X-shaped anymore... ... and its library has a large bay window. Emma says that she used telepathy to manipulate Sebastian Shaw into making her White Queen. Is this a retcon? True to the episode title, all sorts of things get shattered in this issue: Jean’s composure, Scott’s marriage, the X-Men’s unity, and most notably Emma’s entire body. Jean is too obvious a suspect, which maybe gives her the perfect alibi. Hmm…
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 14, 2018 14:44:52 GMT -5
Just then Scott physically bursts into the room and insists that Jean read his mind. She learns that Emma did make a bedroom advance on Scott last year in Hong Kong, but Scott rebuffed her: “Emma, I’m serious about the whole celibacy thing. It’s Jean or nothing.” (Or Colleen, or Lee, or Maddy. If you can’t be with the one you love…) Scott didn’t follow through on Colleen’s advances, and his fling with Lee didn’t go anywhere even if Jean was supposed to be dead forever at the time. Marrying Maddie was nothing like cheating on Jean: Jean was dead, and he married a perfect look-alike! If anything, he was unfair to Maddie, not Jean. That’s a lame-o excuse, I agree, but I wouldn’t say Morrison is casting Jean as a villain. He’s trying to show how human relations can be complex, with faults on several sides compounding each other. Here, Scott is guilty of entertaining fantasies abot a woman who’s not his wife. He’s feeling bad about it, as well he should, and to any external observer he’d be the bad spouse in this couple. Jean, meanwhile, behaves like the superior moral beacon that Emma always saysnshe’s pretending to be; after all, Jean is the wronged party. But at the same time, she’s the one who had so little faith in her husband that she convinced herself he was cheating on her, while her telepathic scan showed him to have remained steadfast. Even when faced with the fact, her reaction was not to be embarrassed, but to find excuses “but... they were thinking about it”. That wouldn’t be so bad if, a few issues ago, she hadn’t gone to Wolverine for emotional support (even kissing him for real, not in a telepathic fantasy). Was it so hard to go to her husband and talk to him? I think they’re not taking sides, they’re feeling sorry for both Jean and Scott, whose marriage is really unraveling. I’m not sure they have much of an opinion about psychic adultery, but in any case Logan would be hard pressed to point fingers: he lusted after Jean for years (first in retcons, then in the actual mag; they even shared a dry hump on a,cover of Uncanny X-Men at some point). Logan also cheated on Mariko in the pages of his own mag, something which at the time had deeply annoyed me (as I was a big Wolverine fan in the 80s). But more importantly, I see the X-Men’s reaction here as one of facing the crisis first, and appointing blame later. I fully agree, but so is seeking emotional comfort and kissing another suitor when you have problems with your spouse. Do two wrongs make a right? No, but I appreciate how Morrison shows how the marriage is going down the tube without having to make one the good guy and the other the bad guy. These are two people hurting and doing things they normally wouldn’t because of their incapacity to extricate themselves from what seems to be an impossible situation. Hah! Good point. That’s the problem with shared universe books! But I believe that Storm and Rogue were busy looking for Destiny’s diaries or some such, that Kitty was off to college and in none of the X-books, that Stevie was forgotten by everyone but fans (or perhaps Chris used her in X-Treme XxMen, I wouldn’t know...), and that Moira was dead. Gee, Jean doesn’t have a lot of friends! Time to call her old room-mateMisty Knight! That was one high octane issue. I loved the bit about Emma’s plastic surgery.
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Post by rberman on May 14, 2018 15:36:18 GMT -5
Scott didn’t follow through on Colleen’s advances, and his fling with Lee didn’t go anywhere even if Jean was supposed to be dead forever at the time. Marrying Maddie was nothing like cheating on Jean: Jean was dead, and he married a perfect look-alike! If anything, he was unfair to Maddie, not Jean. I agree that Scott was reprehensible toward Maddie. If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force, then Maddie should have suffered a tragic accident. I don't think Morrison is casting Jean as a villain. Morrison does seem to be writing Logan and Scott as seeing Jean as the villain, though, and I'm not sure why. Jean already did try to talk to Scott about Emma once that we saw, and he was super-sarcastic and implied he'd had sex with Emma, which we now find wasn't even true. That was the point at which I expected Jean to do the things she did in this issue, a year before she actually did. Putting the best face on Jean's situation: She feels estranged from her husband and fears talking about it will just anger him, so she lets things drift along without trying to rock the boat, until matters come to a head that simply can't be ignored. This at least rings true to how real life marriages can fracture. The "activation energy" of trying to fix it is too hard, and the prospect that the attempted fix will actually break things for good is too scary, so instead of doing the hard thing sooner, the couple settles for a sliding status quo that actually makes inevitable the divorce that they both would rather have avoided. (I am happily married to my first wife, by the way, but I have seen the lives of lots of other people.) "But they were thinking about it" is a little different in this scenario than in real life. In our world, we might identify different points on the spectrum of a particular man-woman relationship becoming adulterous: 1) Not at all. The two may be work colleagues or neighbors, and might even be appreciative of each other's personal and physical attributes, but it's strictly intellectual. 2) An unpursued desire. Perhaps thoughts of "If I was with him/her..." that are never acted upon, due to dedication to the actual spouse, the ramifications of following that line of thought, etc. 3) An emotional affair. No sexual activity, but a level of intimacy develops that supercedes and damages the relationships that each has with their respective spouses. Time is spent on this relationship that detracts from other obligations. 4) Physical/sexual intimacy. "Nuff said about that. In our world, "I was just thinking about it" would be level 2 here. It might in some senses be even praiseworthy to become aware of a tempting attraction on which you don't act. (Better for peace of mind not to have the attraction at all, though.) Carly Simon has an insightful song called " We Have No Secrets" whose topic is "I'd rather not hear about all the other women that pursue my husband, even though he stays faithful." But Scott and Emma are not "thinking about it" in that level 2 sense. They are at a level 3.5 that only exists in a world with telepathy. They are emotionally intimate and are experiencing the mental effects of sexual intimacy without actually touching physically. Scott knows it was more than just a wistful, passing daydream. "Emma and I did something stupid," he says. Now, that doesn't exonerate Jean. She invades Emma's deepest thoughts and (as I neglected to mention in my plot summary) causes Emma to relive the experience of 16 million mutant minds crying out their death throes at Genosha. Emma was traumatized by that the first time around, and it's certainly no piece of cake this time either. So OK, I can buy Emma getting some "Are you OK?" from her teammates, even though she's getting the comeuppance for her own bad behavior. I just would have expected somebody to be equally concerned about Jean -- not just in an "Uh oh, if she gets mad, Phoenix will manifest and murder us all" bu also in a "Wow, Jean, Scott and Emma done you wrong. Let's go get some ice cream and cry" way. Which again gets back to Jean's lack of female friends in the mansion, even though surely a boarding school with 150 students has adult support staff that we never see. That may be. And there are some upcoming moments with Hank and Jean that will be relevant to her side of the story...
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Post by rberman on May 15, 2018 7:46:43 GMT -5
New X-Men #140 “Murder at the Mansion” (June 2003)I left this cover larger so you can appreciate the people on it who don't appear in this whole series, like Rogue, Gambit, and Juggernaut. The Story: Who shattered Emma Frost? It’s Hercule Poirot time! Lucas Bishop and his computer-brained associate Sage arrive and instruct everyone still on campus that they can’t leave until the mystery is solved. The only physical clue: A bullet made of diamond. Bishop runs through the suspects: Beast is the one who reported the dead body. Now he’s busy in the lab trying to re-assemble all the diamonds comprising Emma’s body like “an incredibly intricate biological jigsaw.” His alibi: He was at the opera (“ Orfeo” is about a return from the world of death) with the Stepford Cuckoos, who thus are similarly off the hook. This recalls how the Brodie Set were opera fans in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie.
The Cuckoos confirm this story and claim that Emma was still “our favorite teacher” even after they announced they were dumping her and moving to Switzerland due to blaming Emma for Sophie’s self-sacrificial heroics. That’s the first time Emma ever got accused of inspiring someone to be heroic! Figures that it didn’t turn out well. Charles Xavier denies his involvement on grounds of “You know I wouldn’t do that.” But then again, Xavier has done a terrible thing or two in the past when he’s not right in the head (or inside his own head). Bishop gives up on this line of inquiry a little too quickly, even if he doesn’t know about Cassandra Nova’s recent meddling in Xavier’s mind. Xorn says he was meditating alone. Bishop interviews Xorn’s Special Class, but we only see one of those encounters. Angel says she was “hanging out” with Beak. (She calls him “Beakie,” actually.) We already know what their “hanging out” has led to: her pregnancy. Jean Grey-Summers confesses that she has “the worst temper,” though her actions last issue show her to be surprisingly patient, until pushed to her breaking point. Anyway, she lets Lucas into her mind, and he’s both dazzled by the Phoenix Force and convinced of her innocence. Bishop interviews Quentin Quire’s gang member Redneck in prison. Where did Quentin get the Kick drug inhalers that the New X-Men gang were using? Somewhere in the woods behind the mansion, apparently. Sage goes there and finds an old house filled with egg sacks, hanging from the ceiling… and someone who holds a gun to Sage’s head. Beak comes to Beast in tears, confessing himself as (1) the school’s supplier of Kick, and (2) the murderer of Emma Frost. Wha…..? My Two Cents: The idea of an X-Men whodunit is a lot of fun, if redundant in a mansion with multiple Omega-level telepaths. Phil Jiminez is back on pencils, doing an excellent job, and Logan has his hair tufts and sideburns again instead of a soul patch. Apparently the soul patch was editorially mandated, but as Morrison pointed out in an interview, Marvel can’t change the appearance of any of the characters substantially without generating howls of protest from all the licensees who sell those character images on lunch boxes, posters, action figures, T-shirts. So it’s back to Logan’s usual look. The kids in the Special Class are playing the game “Clue,” which is a nice touch. Note that Basilisk appears to have made a new game piece out of green clay to represent the lawnmower. I am not sure what role the two AA batteries play in "Clue" though. Jiminez also includes a fallen sundial in a garden image, which is an interesting detail, though I can’t imagine what it means. As with the previous Jiminez issue, the mansion again has bay windows. Bishop I sorta knew as a former mutant slave from a post-apocalyptic future. Sage, I have learned, used to be known as Sebastian Shaw’s Hellfire Club assistant Tessa back in Claremont days, but for some reason her long association with Emma isn’t mentioned in this issue. Unlike the confusing X-Corporation stories in Mumbai and Paris, I found the incorporation of Bishop and Tessa into this issue completely intelligible, mainly because they are operating entirely within established sleuthing archetypes. Bishop’s ability to absorb and then re-emit power doesn’t even come up. So, quite a fun story.
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2018 7:38:15 GMT -5
New X-Men #141 “Whodunit” (July 2003)So... someone likes the film The Terminator. The Story: Lucas Bishop returns to the Xavier Institute from his prison visit to find Sage fallen in the grass out back, spouting nonsense. Her computer-mind has suffered a partial memory wipe. They investigate the abandoned house with dozens of large and full egg sacs hanging from the ceiling. Bishop also finds a handgun, presumably the one used to club Sage and shoot Emma Frost with a diamond bullet. Charles Xavier and Beast do not buy Beak’s claim to have shot Emma Frost, partly because he can’t give any convincing details. He blurts out that he has “made Angel pregnant with monster babies,” which explains the egg sacs in the old house. According to Beak, when Angel was out shopping with Emma, she confided in Emma about the pregnancy, and then for unclear reasons Angel got worried that she and Beak would be expelled over the pregnancy, so Beak shot Emma. But where would he get a diamond bullet? Out in the woods, we get closer to the truth: Beak was lying. Angel's hand held the gun that shot Emma in the face, but Angel can’t explain her own motive clearly, since Emma was being nice to her lately. And once again, where would she come up with a diamond bullet? Jean Grey-Summers, helping Beast to re-assemble the zillion diamond fragments of Emma, has another bombshell: Beast’s memory of going to the opera on the night of the murder is false. And he was “there” with the telepathic Cuckoos, who are nursing a recent grudge against Emma for the death of one of their number. Are they the guilty ones? Jean uses Phonenix-power to fuse Emma back together, and Emma awakens screaming the name of her assailant: Esme Cuckoo is packing her bags, leaving the other three Cuckoos behind as she plans to “scrawl my name across the world.” Bishop and Sage confront Esme at the mansion gate, but she’s powered up by the Kick drug and easily immobilizes them. She won’t say whom she’s going to meet, but “You’ll all find out soon enough.” This causes Sage to remember that her assailant could not have been Esme; it was a man over six feet tall. Who?? Hey, where is Scott Summers? Thus does Morrison set in motion the final act of his time as New X-Men writer. My Two Cents: OK, Morrison is smarter than I thought, again. A few issues ago, I asked how Angel had time to discover her pregnancy after just a few days elapsed during the Quentin Quire story. Beak has the answer: Due to her insectoid mutation, “There is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth.” This is the sort of “non-crime-fighting ramifications of mutations” that I’d like to see more of. Esme Cuckoo says that she's going to "dye her hair" so that she doesn't resemble Emma any more. This brings up the question of what her real hair color is. We saw two issues ago that Emma's real hair color is not blonde, but a mousy light brown. Do the Cuckoos dye their hair to match hers, or does it just happen to already be the color that she's chosen? (Emma's hair changes color from arc to arc as well, sometimes a normal blonde and sometimes platinum blonde or even white.) Maybe Esme's hair is naturally blonde so she'd have to dye it to change it, or maybe she just doesn't want to wait for it to grow out; she wants to look different now. Yet when we see her again down the line, she has a different hairstyle, yet still blonde. Ah well, she's a teen girl. She'll probably want something different tomorrow. Morrison shows no interest in explaining the Cuckoo's origin. I wonder if the origin given us by later writers is what he intended. The Cuckoos do eventually dye their hair different colors to make them easier for the reader to distinguish, which obviously detracts from their creepy clone shtick. While putting together their 100,000 piece diamond Emma puzzle, Jean and Hank share their feelings. Hank considers Emma his outpost of high culture at the school. The problem with having rarified tastes is the lack of someone your own age (i.e. not Charles) with whom to enjoy the finer things in life. It's the same reason a Logan/Mariko relationship would be unlikely to survive long-term. Or an Emma/Scott relationship, for that matter. She'd want to go to the ballet; he'd rather watch baseball and The Big Bang Theory.Jean, meanwhile, is apparently mollified enough by Emma's current predicament to help bring her back from the brink of death. She even uses "Scott needs you" as a way to wake Emma up, knowing that those words will trigger a strong emotional kick-start for Emma's consciousness. This is fine as far as it goes. Now Jean's in a real predicament. What would happen next in our world is that Jean would tell Emma, "I raised you from the dead. Thanks for helping my husband with his issues. No thanks for getting emotionally entangled with him. Get out of this house, and never return." But that won't work with Scott and Emma, because physical distance won't prevent their psychic liaisons. So maybe that wouldn't really work, but physically separating them would at least be symbolically satisfying. It seems to me that Morrison has written himself into a bit of a corner. The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie was a one-shot story, not part of a series, so it could afford to have things end tragically for its protagonist as a result of her bad choices. But whether by Morrison's choice or Marvel editorial's choice, Emma stays in the X-Men even after all this. That fact ought to be a really big deal, but Morrison fails to follow the plot thread, and it never comes up again until... well, we'll get there, won't we! It’s hard to write a good detective story, meaning one in which the assembled clues lead the detective to deduce the identity of the culprit. By that standard, this is not a good detective story. All of Bishop’s work turns out to be incidental, unearthing Beak and Angel’s secret but not the would-be murderer of Emma Frost. The short version of this mystery is “Beast pieces Emma back together, and Jean heals Emma, and Emma names the culprit.” It would have been nice if Bishop had at least discovered the fact that the opera had been canceled that evening. He could have confronted Beast with that fact, and they could have confronted the Cuckoos while Jean was resurrecting Emma to separately arrive at the same truth. However, while not a good detective story, this was still a good story involving a detective. Morrison used misdirection effectively several times before revealing whodunit.
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Post by sabongero on May 16, 2018 10:39:07 GMT -5
Scott didn’t follow through on Colleen’s advances, and his fling with Lee didn’t go anywhere even if Jean was supposed to be dead forever at the time. Marrying Maddie was nothing like cheating on Jean: Jean was dead, and he married a perfect look-alike! If anything, he was unfair to Maddie, not Jean. I agree that Scott was reprehensible toward Maddie. If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force, then Maddie should have suffered a tragic accident. Hi. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When you said "If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force..." you probably meant X-Factor right? I mean when editorial decided to bring back Jean Grey on January 1986 on both Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 back in January 1986, and then had Cyclops lose to Storm on X-Men #201 for leadership of the X-Men which was also on January 1986, that was for the launching of the old X-Men team under X-Factor #1 which was on February 1986. As for Scott Summers and Madelyne Pryor... I'm not touching that subject. I think that was an editorial sabotage on Scott Summers' boy scout image and just because they wanted the old team together, they decided to have him bail out on his wife and son. And then of course retcon it later on by having her as I can't remember if it was a dark queen or goblin queen.
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2018 11:02:20 GMT -5
I agree that Scott was reprehensible toward Maddie. If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force, then Maddie should have suffered a tragic accident. Hi. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When you said "If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force..." you probably meant X-Factor right? I mean when editorial decided to bring back Jean Grey on January 1986 on both Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 back in January 1986, and then had Cyclops lose to Storm on X-Men #201 for leadership of the X-Men which was also on January 1986, that was for the launching of the old X-Men team under X-Factor #1 which was on February 1986. As for Scott Summers and Madelyne Pryor... I'm not touching that subject. I think that was an editorial sabotage on Scott Summers' boy scout image and just because they wanted the old team together, they decided to have him bail out on his wife and son. And then of course retcon it later on by having her as I can't remember if it was a dark queen or goblin queen. Yup. Good catch. I meant X-Factor, not X-Force. I get X-asperated by all the similar-sounding team names when I try to X-plain them! I think Maddy later became the "Goblin Queen," but I had stopped reading comics by then. For me, her most memorable moment will always be this:
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Post by sabongero on May 16, 2018 11:54:16 GMT -5
Hi. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When you said "If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force..." you probably meant X-Factor right? I mean when editorial decided to bring back Jean Grey on January 1986 on both Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 back in January 1986, and then had Cyclops lose to Storm on X-Men #201 for leadership of the X-Men which was also on January 1986, that was for the launching of the old X-Men team under X-Factor #1 which was on February 1986. As for Scott Summers and Madelyne Pryor... I'm not touching that subject. I think that was an editorial sabotage on Scott Summers' boy scout image and just because they wanted the old team together, they decided to have him bail out on his wife and son. And then of course retcon it later on by having her as I can't remember if it was a dark queen or goblin queen. Yup. Good catch. I meant X-Factor, not X-Force. I get X-asperated by all the similar-sounding team names when I try to X-plain them! I think Maddy later became the "Goblin Queen," but I had stopped reading comics by then. For me, her most memorable moment will always be this: Definitely agree with you on the X-asperated ... now that can also be applied to all the Avengers titles nowadays as well. I'm not familiar with X-Force. Who's (Who were) the leaders of that particular group?
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2018 12:17:08 GMT -5
Yup. Good catch. I meant X-Factor, not X-Force. I get X-asperated by all the similar-sounding team names when I try to X-plain them! Definitely agree with you on the X-asperated ... now that can also be applied to all the Avengers titles nowadays as well. I'm not familiar with X-Force. Who's (Who were) the leaders of that particular group? That was after my time, but I believe it was essentially a rebranding of what New Mutants had become after Rob Liefeld introduced all of his ridiculous new characters like Cable, pushing out most of the original team. I have actually developed a Liefeld-o-meter scoring system by which you can see how high any particular one of his cover illustrations scores: Tiny head: Yes/No Oversized Muscles: Yes/No Oversized Gun: Yes/No Gritted Teeth: Yes/No Wrestling Headgear: Yes/No Pouches: Yes/No Garter: Yes/No (often used as a belt for pouches) Absent Feet: Yes/No (when present, usually tiny and melted-looking) So this cover gets a score of 7/8, lacking only gritted teeth. (You could count several items multiple times each if you wanted, including wrestling headgear.) Note that the team contains only Cannonball from the original squad, having substituted Feral as the team werewolf, even though Rahne Sinclair is a perfectly good existing character for that slot.
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Post by badwolf on May 16, 2018 14:48:20 GMT -5
So this cover gets a score of 7/8, lacking only gritted teeth. (You could count several items multiple times each if you wanted, including wrestling headgear.) Note that the team contains only Cannonball from the original squad, having substituted Feral as the team werewolf, even though Rahne Sinclair is a perfectly good existing character for that slot. What the heck is that on Shatterstar's right shoulder? An anemone?
I'm actually relieved that he didn't ruin Rahne for this.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 16, 2018 19:25:15 GMT -5
I agree that Scott was reprehensible toward Maddie. If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force, then Maddie should have suffered a tragic accident. Hi. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When you said "If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force..." you probably meant X-Factor right? I mean when editorial decided to bring back Jean Grey on January 1986 on both Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 back in January 1986, and then had Cyclops lose to Storm on X-Men #201 for leadership of the X-Men which was also on January 1986, that was for the launching of the old X-Men team under X-Factor #1 which was on February 1986. As for Scott Summers and Madelyne Pryor... I'm not touching that subject. I think that was an editorial sabotage on Scott Summers' boy scout image and just because they wanted the old team together, they decided to have him bail out on his wife and son. And then of course retcon it later on by having her as I can't remember if it was a dark queen or goblin queen.Well said. Maddie was not intended to be a Jean Grey clone; Chris Claremont created her to give Scott a happy ending of sort. Her looking like Jean was a red herring, othing more. Then because of the X-Factor fiasco, she was turned into a copy, who was then corrupted by the demon Nastirh to become the Goblin queen. As if turning her into a villain absolved Scott of dumping her in the first place! What a complete fosterclock and character assassination the whole thing was.
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Post by rberman on May 16, 2018 21:48:57 GMT -5
Hi. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When you said "If editorial was so desperate to get the old gang back together in X-Force..." you probably meant X-Factor right? I mean when editorial decided to bring back Jean Grey on January 1986 on both Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 back in January 1986, and then had Cyclops lose to Storm on X-Men #201 for leadership of the X-Men which was also on January 1986, that was for the launching of the old X-Men team under X-Factor #1 which was on February 1986. As for Scott Summers and Madelyne Pryor... I'm not touching that subject. I think that was an editorial sabotage on Scott Summers' boy scout image and just because they wanted the old team together, they decided to have him bail out on his wife and son. And then of course retcon it later on by having her as I can't remember if it was a dark queen or goblin queen.Well said. Maddie was not intended to be a Jean Grey clone; Chris Claremont created her to give Scott a happy ending of sort. Her looking like Jean was a red herring, nothing more. Then because of the X-Factor fiasco, she was turned into a copy, who was then corrupted by the demon Nastirh to become the Goblin queen. As if turning her into a villain absolved Scott of dumping her in the first place! What a complete fosterclock and character assassination the whole thing was. The problem was the Claremont set up her too well to be a Jean clone or alternate reality something-or-other. Not only did she look identical to Jean (including hairstyle), but she also survived a plane crash on the same day (and, apparently at the exact moment) that Jean was dying on the moon. That's too big a plot point to chalk up to coincidence, so I don't blame somebody for feeling the urge to paper it over with an explanation. Too bad; I would have rather she was just some lady who happened to look like Jean. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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