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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 8:41:16 GMT -5
I have been reading this thread about almost a dozen times already and I've never heard of this character in my (honest) life and I'm intrigued by this character. The artwork that codystarbuck posted so far is filled with action and high drama and it's really pops in your mind. I didn't realized that some of this influence came from the Six Million Dollar Man and the Cyborg book by Martin Caidin and all that. I'm definitely checking this out for sure! |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 15, 2018 10:15:25 GMT -5
Deathlok was a cult favorite, but not really a commercial success. He was popular enough to bounce around some of Marvel's other misfit titles, for a brief period, before going dormant for a few years, when he turned up in Captain America.
The mid-70s at both DC and Marvel was a pretty desperate time. Very little was selling and newsstands were drying up. Marvel was saved by Star Wars, a couple of years later; DC got a bit of a boost with the Superman film and Jenette Kahn's housecleaning.
For my money, in this time frame, the Marvel books worth reading were Deathlok (in Astonishing Tales), Killraven (in Amazing Adventures) and Master of Kung Fu. The big books vacillated between good stories and mediocre ones, depending on who was handling it and how inspired they were. DC had much bigger problems, as entrenched, outdated management was killing them. They also had a revolving door of writers and artists on titles, which meant little momentum was built up. They also rarely seemed to pair the best writers with the best artists, feeling that the one would elevate the other. It rarely worked out that way.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 15, 2018 13:08:17 GMT -5
For my money, in this time frame, the Marvel books worth reading were Deathlok (in Astonishing Tales), Killraven (in Amazing Adventures) and Master of Kung Fu. I'd add Tomb of Dracula and Conan, but they were arguably in different genres from the three you mention. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 15, 2018 23:18:08 GMT -5
For my money, in this time frame, the Marvel books worth reading were Deathlok (in Astonishing Tales), Killraven (in Amazing Adventures) and Master of Kung Fu. I'd add Tomb of Dracula and Conan, but they were arguably in different genres from the three you mention. I'd agree with that. I wasn't reading them at the time (other than a couple of issues); but, enjoyed them immensely once I did start reading them. Gerber's Defenders was good, though it varied, as did Englehart's Avengers. I seem to be one of the few who liked Marv Wolfman's Daredevil; but, it was varied, at times. Don McGregor's Panther's Rage storyline, in Jungle Action, also needs to be there. Invaders was good, though it took a while to find its feet, then kind of burnt out after the big fight with Master Man and Warrior Woman (and Adolf Hitler!). |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 15, 2018 23:29:18 GMT -5
Astonishing Tales #29 Creati...........Wait, whaaaaaa? ?It seems Mr Buckler fell victim to the dreaded "Deadline Doom," and we got a reprint of Marvel Super-Heroes #18, the first appearance of the Guardians of the Galaxy. Not their finest hour and not the team they would become. In fact, if it hadn't been for Steve Gerber, they might never have become anything! I may get to them, down the road....... Now, Buckler, get off your Asgard and get the dang issue out. And you, Wein, exercise some leadership! Wein was EIC, during this time frame, as well as editor of Deathlok. He didn't stick with it long, before it was Marv Wolfman's turn. It started to feel like EIC was like a big game of musical chairs.
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Post by brutalis on May 16, 2018 7:51:45 GMT -5
There is one problem with Luther's past, as he appears to be more of a grunt than a colonel and Mike seems to be completely removed from the military. Ryker being a major seems a bit low; never quite understood why he wasn't a general, especially based on his probable age, given his character design. He actually looks more than a bit like Thunderbolt Ross, from the Hulk.
Hmmm, I wonder how much of this may be blamed on Moench/Buckler or how much on the Editor? Might Luther be one of the old school armchair warrior types (ala Admiral Kirk) that was a better warrior on the field than in command and that aspect is what was needed for the Deathlok program? Ryker looking so much like Thunderbolt Ross means it could be that editorial "chose" to make Ryker a Major to help prevent comparison's or the overall suggestion that in Military Command/power being "abused" for personal gains is capable of happening. Major Ryker has an overall roll off the tongue name than General or Colonel or Admiral Ryker.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 16, 2018 13:04:12 GMT -5
There is one problem with Luther's past, as he appears to be more of a grunt than a colonel and Mike seems to be completely removed from the military. Ryker being a major seems a bit low; never quite understood why he wasn't a general, especially based on his probable age, given his character design. He actually looks more than a bit like Thunderbolt Ross, from the Hulk.
Hmmm, I wonder how much of this may be blamed on Moench/Buckler or how much on the Editor? Might Luther be one of the old school armchair warrior types (ala Admiral Kirk) that was a better warrior on the field than in command and that aspect is what was needed for the Deathlok program? Ryker looking so much like Thunderbolt Ross means it could be that editorial "chose" to make Ryker a Major to help prevent comparison's or the overall suggestion that in Military Command/power being "abused" for personal gains is capable of happening. Major Ryker has an overall roll off the tongue name than General or Colonel or Admiral Ryker. The dialogue explicitly states that Luther Manning was noted for strategic thinking, which is what made him valuable. Except, that isn't really exploited when you are turned into a computer-controlled cyborg, who follows pre-programmed orders. That is, unless the orders are based on analyses created using the knowledge of Manning, somehow preserved on computer records. That said, a strategic expert is not going to be humping it through war games. Really the flashbacks don't flesh out the character much, other than that he and Ryker didn't get along and Mike Travers was his best buddy. Somehow, I get the feeling that Major Ryker was chosen because it sounds like Major Reisman, Lee Marvin's character in The Dirty Dozen. Someone forgot to tell Buckler, though, as he continued to draw stars on the guy's collar, which means general. Buckler doesn't even try for a vague oak leaf; it's a clear, five-pointed star. He also has Ryker's medals over his right breast instead of left. I still chalk it all up to a bunch of damn dirty hippies, listening to rock and roll music, and bad-mouthing their country! Don't you eyeball me boy! Use your peripheral vision to read that comic book! Besides, let's face it, most of the Marvel writers and editors of this period were hippies and they were smoking (and tripping). No wonder Kirby had a tough time with them; all he smoked was tobacco! Kirby wouldn't make mistakes like that. Starlin, Cockrum, and Hama wouldn't, as vets. |
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Post by brutalis on May 16, 2018 13:15:53 GMT -5
To be fair, at the time of reading Deathlok as a teen I had little clue to military structure and didn't really even care or know if they were being accurate within the comic. It was the story and art blowing my mind (whatever drugs those damn hippies were on I was getting second hand use from their comic) which made the comic so good. Did it or does it really matter how accurate something has to be in a comic designed to entertain youth? Hell, Captain America is Captain of what exactly? I know that reading it when published all I was interested in was the story, action and visuals Buckler was throwing out.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 16, 2018 13:36:42 GMT -5
Astonishing Tales "30 Creative Team: Buckler scripts and does layouts, Moench scripts (after being absent from the previous story); Buckler, Keith Pollard and Arvell Jones handle art, Al McWilliams inks, Roussos colors, C Jetter letters, Wein edits (or doesn't, since they blew a deadline already). Whole lot of art assists here, which I will get to, in a moment. Synopsis: Deathlok and the black soldier have been cornered by a tank, at the barrier wall. Deathlok's weapon jams and the soldier attacks the tank. Deathlok has a flashback to the accident that killed him and leaps and saves the soldier, who is wounded by shrapnel.  They jump to the top of the wall, as Ryker's laser-armed infantry comes up, with at least one firing an M1 rifle, from WW2...  The soldier is killed and Deathlok wonders why. Ryker cackles remotely and Mike travers is losing his marbles, shouting at cameras about Ryker not beating him. Ryker sounds like Wile E Coyote, when he faces Bugs Bunny, talking about his superior intellect. "Major S. Ryker, Super Genius!" Deathlok evades the tank after tumbling down an embankment, where the tank can't easily follow. The infantry move on and Deathlok breaks into a convenient auxiliary armory, where he finds grenades (possible duds). He is cornered by the men outside and takes one of them out, rather graphically...  Deathlok kills more with pistols, then heads out. He finds himself near a cryogenics facility, where cyborgs were created, in illegal experiments. He also finds debris that may help him with the tank. meanwhile, Ryker is lording it over Nina, about her running the tank that will kill Deathlok and Mike Travers remembers he is a computer expert and programs his way out of his cell. Ryker is prepped for surgery, to create his savior machine. Deathlok takes out the infantry, they uses an improvised crossbow to launch an I-beam at the tank, destroying it. mike Travers is on the run and finds the breach in the wall where the tank went after Deathlok. Thoughts: heck of a cover! The 90s were known for the "Big Gun" covers, while this is the 70s and we get the "Big Honkin' Crossbow Cover!" The story itself is kind of spinning its wheels for battle sequences, which are marred by too many hands in the drawing. A lot of this isn't Buckler and what is is not his best. Al McWilliams tries to give it a unified look by overpowering the pencils; but, the result isn't that good; certainly not up to previous issues. McWilliams did a lot of war comics, for various publishers and was a damn fine illustrator; but, this isn't really his material. Pollard and Jones were young pups from the Detroit comics community, which was Buckler's home. Given how late this issue was (it was supposed to be #29), you'd think it would look better. Instead, it looks like it was hacked out in an all-nighter (probably was). Moench is back adding to the script and there is some interesting stuff here. Mike Travers' scenes are a bit overwrought; but, it was the 70s. Mostly, this feels more like a placeholder issue, while we wait for the story to kick into high gear again. Something tells me that the material in this section of the saga was not well fleshed out ahead of time, leading to much of its weakness. On the plus side, we have been introduced to a resistance to Ryker, even if it is in the form of a Blaxploitation film character (Linc Shane, the soldier, and the stereotyped dialogue) and we have progression towards whatever the Savior Machine is. Nina is still being mentally raped, which is pretty darn icky, in retrospect and you are glad it isn't Alan Moore writing, or Ryker would probably be doing much more to her (see Miracleman and the Project Zarathustra bunker sequences, from Miraclewoman's point of view). This is a bit of a stumble for the gang; let's hope it isn't a sign of things to come.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 16, 2018 14:03:27 GMT -5
To be fair, at the time of reading Deathlok as a teen I had little clue to military structure and didn't really even care or know if they were being accurate within the comic. It was the story and art blowing my mind (whatever drugs those damn hippies were on I was getting second hand use from their comic) which made the comic so good. Did it or does it really matter how accurate something has to be in a comic designed to entertain youth? Hell, Captain America is Captain of what exactly? I know that reading it when published all I was interested in was the story, action and visuals Buckler was throwing out. Ah, but this is the stuff of letter columns! Where would we be without nitpicking letters, pointing out the inaccuracies of the story, in hopes of a No Prize? Mostly, I'm just poking fun; but, it is a bit puzzling why Ryker has stars on his collar, if he is a major and why he is a lowly major, if he is the guy running things. It seems off. Like you say, he may have started out as a general and Roy said he looked too much like Gen Ross and suggested they alter his rank. Buckler didn't do any further altering though, if that's the case. Not a big deal; but, worthy of noting, for me. I've read these comics several times, over the years, which is why some of the background inconsistencies stand out more. I've had time for a nagging thought to turn into a full on critique. It's like watching Star Wars and hearing Han refer to parsecs, incorrectly and not think much of it, until you've watched the film several times and come across the fact that parsecs are units of distance, not measures of time. Doesn't affect the plot but it is the lifeblood of obsessive fans, which is why most of us are here, right? Captain America is a Captain, of America. It was a test of a new rank, like Corporal-Captain. "Don't like it; don't like it at all!" "That's one for 'no'." (thanks to MASH) |
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Post by brutalis on May 16, 2018 15:21:43 GMT -5
To be fair, at the time of reading Deathlok as a teen I had little clue to military structure and didn't really even care or know if they were being accurate within the comic. It was the story and art blowing my mind (whatever drugs those damn hippies were on I was getting second hand use from their comic) which made the comic so good. Did it or does it really matter how accurate something has to be in a comic designed to entertain youth? Hell, Captain America is Captain of what exactly? I know that reading it when published all I was interested in was the story, action and visuals Buckler was throwing out. I know what you are getting at and am totally enjoying your thoughts codystarbuck! Your remarks are totally what should have been in those letter columns back then. If "Lok hadn't been so inconsistent in being published and had a better editor there might have been some real discussions going on in those letter pages. AS you say, just poking fun. For now though you can just consider me as the Dan Ackroyd counterpoint to your Jane Curtin point if you get my meaning   |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 16, 2018 15:55:09 GMT -5
Ah, but this is the stuff of letter columns! Where would we be without nitpicking letters, pointing out the inaccuracies of the story, in hopes of a No Prize? I know what you are getting at and am totally enjoying your thoughts codystarbuck ! Your remarks are totally what should have been in those letter columns back then. If "Lok hadn't been so inconsistent in being published and had a better editor there might have been some real discussions going on in those letter pages. AS you say, just poking fun. For now though you can just consider me as the Dan Ackroyd counterpoint to your Jane Curtin point if you get my meaning As long as I don't have to hear from Richard Fader, from Ft Wayne New Jersey, or his correspondent. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 17, 2018 12:55:10 GMT -5
By the way; here's the soundtrack for the series:  |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 17, 2018 13:18:26 GMT -5
Astonishing Tales #31 Creative Team: Buckler and Pollard on art, Klaus Jansen inks, Moench Scripts, Janice Chiang letters, Janice Cohen letters, Len Wein edits. Synopsis: Deathlok moves on from the scene of the destroyed tank. mike Travers goes through thebreach in the wall and foolows. deathlok gets the drop on him and realizes it is Mike...  Mike reveals that he and Janice are now married and Deathlok is about to kill him, when Mike reminds him that he was dead and gone for 5 years. deathlok lets him live and moves on. he comes across a rooftop meeting between goons, who are contracting for the surgeon who created Deathlok. The buyer is a representative of Quartruccio and the sellers renege and open fire on his rep. Deathlok goes for a shot; but his newly acquired aser rifle doesn't work 9how convenient). He is forced to use fists and firearms, before the boss escapes in a helicopter. Deathlok swears to go after him.  Kind of a light issue. Deathlok discovers that Mike is alive and married to his wife. Another twist of the knife to keep Deathlok sympathetic, while he lays waste to those in sight. the gang fight is kind of pointless, other than to provide the requisite violence, though we do get a step closer to the surgeon who put Luther Manning's body in to Deathlok's cyborg shell. Quartuccio is a tribute to Sal Quartuccio, publisher and owner of SQP, who produced top quality fanzines and original comics. Buckler had worked produced in his magazines Phase and Hot Stuff. More wheel spinning. The art is a step up from last issue, as Klaus Jansen is more in sync than Al McWilliams. However, it is not as strong as Buckler's earlier material. Still seems like he is spread too thin.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 19, 2018 21:37:38 GMT -5
Astonishing Tales #32 First, some appropriate music... Creative Team: Rich Buckler-plot, part of the script, some of the art: Bill Mantlo-rest of the script, Keith Pollard, Bob McLeod and the Bullpen-rest of the art; Charlotte J-lettering, Janice Cohen. No editor listed, which probably explains why so many had their hands in the art. Synopsis: Deathlok is after the escaping thugs in the helo and hurls his bayonet (which is drawn more like a bush knife, and hits the tail rotor, sending it into a spin and a hard landing. Deathlok goes after it and lands on a fire escape, which can't support his weight...  Meanwhile, Mike Travers is being remotely observed, as he breaks back into the Pan Am building, where he was held prisoner. Ryker watches a playback of the earlier meeting between Mike and Deathlok, which recaps last issue. He then preps for surgery. Deathlok finds the helo, with the thugs gone. His bionic eye finds infra-red traces of the footsteps (somehow; must have had a hot foot! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!) He heads down to the Lexington Subway Station. Mike finds the unconscious Nina. About a half dozen of Ryker's men come in and have the drop on him, with weapons at point blank range; yet, somehow, he swivels faster and kills them all with his laser rifle, while unhooking Nina from the computers and stuff. And he ain't a cyborg!  Deathlok heads below ground and Ryker's Omni-computer can't track him. He sees the thugs attacked by what looks like cannibals. He intercedes, though the computer says they aren't flesh eaters; but, drones, controlled by someone else. The thugs are dead, cutting off Deathlok's lead to the cyborg surgeon. He thought it was a chance at regaining his human form. More drones converge and Deathlok goes beserk. meanwhile, Mike Travers escapes with Nina. Deathlok is swinging people around and hurling stuff...  Deathlok does his Samson impression and brings the roof down on the drones, then escapes with the briefcase of money that the thugs had. he gets outside and opens it up and the computer scans it and informs him that it is counterfeit!  Thoughts: Sucks to be Deathlok! Collapsing fire escapes, dead couriers, mindless drones, counterfeit money, no cyborg surgeon. Most computer-controlled corpses would have given up by now. The story has a bit of ironic humor and plenty of banter between Deathlok and the 'puter. The Mike Travers stuff is too much of a distraction, if you ask me, and is more than a little silly. It also suffers the worst of the art, with some really bad panels. There are wayy too many fingers in this one and it is probably the artistic lowpoint of the series. The good news is that things climbed back up, with the next issue. Also, we are moving into the third act of Deathlok, as things start to converge, leading Deathlok and Ryker to a collision and also a wild card element in the mysterious surgeon. Trust me, it gets really good, starting next issue. Unfortunately, Doug Moench is now done with the series; but, Mantlo does a pretty decent job at picking up the threads of the script. Buckler will have Klaus Jansen inking, which will bring back the consistency to it. Stay tuned.
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