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Post by Rob Allen on Sept 4, 2018 17:38:45 GMT -5
I kid Marv. He was a damn fine writer and put together a pretty good line of black & white magazines, with greater freedom; bit, he was a flop as EIC, as was Len Wein, as was Gerry Conway, as was Archie Goodwin. Archie was the best editor of that group. A lot of the stabilization that Shooter gets credit for actually started with Archie Goodwin. PS. I did the Landmark Forum (the current incarnation of EST) about a dozen years ago. They'd toned it down since the days of "EST-holes"; I found it interesting and even somewhat useful, as long as you didn't get too far into it.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 4, 2018 20:09:44 GMT -5
I don't think it ever occurred to me before, but that last Elf scene reminds me of the one in Byrne's Hulk (published in Marvel Fanfare) of the old Indian turning out to be the Scourge of the Underworld.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 4, 2018 23:00:23 GMT -5
I kid Marv. He was a damn fine writer and put together a pretty good line of black & white magazines, with greater freedom; bit, he was a flop as EIC, as was Len Wein, as was Gerry Conway, as was Archie Goodwin. Archie was the best editor of that group. A lot of the stabilization that Shooter gets credit for actually started with Archie Goodwin. PS. I did the Landmark Forum (the current incarnation of EST) about a dozen years ago. They'd toned it down since the days of "EST-holes"; I found it interesting and even somewhat useful, as long as you didn't get too far into it. Oh, sure, Archie was one of the best editors in the business; but, by his own admission, the job was more than he wanted and he never seemed to to describe his time as a success. He was much better with a more focused line, like Warren, and the individual book he edited. He seemed to much prefer running Epic, where he could have a better impact. That he instituted change that Shooter gets credit for (or claims) doesn't surprise me. Archie was one of those guys that didn't toot his own horn.
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Post by zaku on Sept 5, 2018 6:59:37 GMT -5
Just a little musing... today the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Namor and Doctor Strange are considered "heavyweights" in the MU and a team with them in the roster would be viewed as "overpowered" and apt to face only end-of-(multi)universe threats or similar. Times have changed.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 5, 2018 9:18:09 GMT -5
I think the Surfer's power was often nerfed for Defenders stories.
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Post by zaku on Sept 5, 2018 9:27:00 GMT -5
I think the Surfer's power was often nerfed for Defenders stories. I remember correctly that when he was exiled on earth he became less powerful?
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 5, 2018 9:31:14 GMT -5
Just a little musing... today the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Namor and Doctor Strange are considered "heavyweights" in the MU and a team with them in the roster would be viewed as "overpowered" and apt to face only end-of-(multi)universe threats or similar. Times have changed. It is a factor in quite a few stories. Surfer wasn't around that much, so he wasn't as big an issue; but, Dr Strange saves everyone's bacon waaay too often. More than a few stories have him incapacitated long enough to give the others something to do; then, he recovers and wiggles his fingers calls on "Hoary Hosts" or some such, then everything is fine. It's like the old Ultraman show, from Japan, where he'd fight the monster, get tossed around a bit, his 60 second alarm would go off and then he'd remember his energy beam and would kill the monster. Never started with the energy beams; always just kicked, chopped and wrestled. Same with Dr Strange. It wasn't unique to Strange, as the JLA would have Superman elsewhere, then get in a jam and he'd show up and save the day. In better stories, one of the other guys would work out the solution (with the better writers, who could write "clever"). In the Avengers, Thor and Iron Man save the rest on a rather consistent basis. prof X rescued the X-Men quite a bit, before they either removed him from the picture or kept the distance great enough that all he could do was talk to them. Really, Superman, Thor, and Dr Strange are characters that really don't require teams, unless it is a "can't be everywhere" situation. For my money, the best teams are those where there is a nice mix of powers/skills, character traits, and a rather balanced level of power. The New Teen Titans were just about ideal. Wonder Girl provides the strength; but, isn't juggling planets or lifting mountains. Cyborg has augmented strength, plus cybernetic weapons and data relays. Kid Flash had the speed, Starfire the energy powers, Raven the healing skills and lesser telepathy, and Robin the years of experience and training; plus, first class leadership skills and tactical thinking. No one was a world beater; but, they were each formidable solo. Together, they augmented one another and Marv & George were very good at depicting teamwork.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 15:23:09 GMT -5
Defenders #39Creative Team: Gerber, Buscema, Janson; Jean Hipp and Irv Watanabe (and Gaspar Saladino, per GCD)-letters, Don Warfield-colors, Archie Goodwin So, Archie Goodwin is the new editor-in chief. Gerry Conway assumed the chair in March of 1976; but, only held it for "about a month and a half." Marv Wolfman is is listed as editor on the books in that time frame, which is either based on being EIC while they were in the pipeline or due to Wolfman's writer-editor gig letting him finish off the books he had in progress as EIC. #39 was released in June and Conway would be gone, by then, as EIC; but, he did have a writer/editor gig, like Roy and Marv, which exempted them from EIC interference. Conway will turn up as writer, in a few issues; but isn't there for long. I'm assuming that his writer/editor gig meant he automatically took over as editor if he assumed the writing, as he does in Defenders. Archie is listed, again, as editor when Conway leaves the book (and Marvel, if memory serves). It all gets a bit confusing. Anyway, goodbye Marv, hello Archie. Now, back to Steve and the gang... ps, Buscema is listed as layouts and Janson finishes; so, he was carrying a heavier load though I believe Sal did looser stuff with some of his other inkers. While we are at it, the cover scene is a complete bait and switch, suggesting that Clea loses control of her power. Read on for the truth. Synopsis: Dr Strange is meditating, trying to find a reason for his erratic powers. The other Defenders are twiddling their thumbs when Jack Norriss comes in and starts whining and carrying on. He recounts events up to the point of calling in Luke Cage and Kyle assigns teams to go look for Val. he goes to Connecticut to see if she is in the hands of the Headmen; but, their house is destroyed and they are gone. He next goes to see his friend, the police commissioner. Cage and red Guardian check the streets and Cage thinks he spots her; but, it is another blond woman, rather stoned, with a jealous boyfriend. He nearly gets a broken wrist and then tries to shiv Cage, breaking the blade on his chest. Cage lets Tania take care of the punk, rather then lose his cool and accidentally kill him. Val is brought before the warden of the women's detention facility and he offers to help her when she tells him to take his hands off of her. He grabs her and she lifts him off the ground, one handed, by his tie, threatening to turn him into pudding if he "fondles" her again. She is led off to be made an example. She is brought back to the cells and told to scrub the floor, on her knees, and she refuses, as the previous lunchroom fight was defense. The ladies cheer and the warden grabs he and gets knocked for six. Val gets haule off to the hole and the women riot. Val decides she has had enough and smashes the door to her cell and finds the riot in progress. She tells off the leader (the butch bully) and she attacks Val with a knife (and Val can't hrt women). Kyle and the commissioner hear about the riot and Kyle summons the Defenders. Clea creates a diversions, with a large fireball in the sky, while Cage, Red Guardian and Nighthawk break in and find Val in charge of things. Thoughts: Mostly an issue to wrap up Val's time in prison and mark time before we head into the resolution of Nebulon and the Bozos (and the Headmen). Half the plot is straight out of every women-in-prison movie; though, being a Code book, we don't get anything quite at the level of The Big Bird Cage or Chained Heat. It's obvious from the fondle comment that Gerber likely would have wanted the warden to cop a feel; but, being a Code book, gust has him grab her arms. Val has been rather placid through the whole prison sub-plot. She is blocked from fighting other women, which makes her ill and she was weakened from the fight with Chondu, when she was arrested; but, it seems like she was content to stick around, though we are told, via dialogue, that she has only been there 2 days, in "real" time. That is one of the problems with serialized comics, as the length between issues factors into the reader's perception of time within the comic. It does make sense that Val would resolve this situation within two days , though this is across 4 issues (arrest to prison riot).
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 16:34:38 GMT -5
Defenders #40Creative Team: Gerber, Buscema, Janson and Joe Rosen-letters (Klaus colors), with Archie as the boss. Synopsis: We open in a courtoom, as Matt Murdock gets the charges against Val dismissed, in exchange for restitution for the damages (thanks to Kyle Richmond's checkbook). The judge tells her not to do it again and thanks her for ending the prison riot. She is given back Dragonfang; but, her rags and "empty shell casings" were tossed out by the cops (how convenient, said the Church lady). They all head back to the Sanctum, where Wong and Clea await. Clea gives Val a "coming out" present, which she is reluctant to accept, until goaded by the others. She goes upto open it in private and Jack intrudes, a bit later.... Apparently it wasn't all the shell casings! Val likes it (including the thigh boots, which makes it look more fetishy than her old duds) and jack starts whining about her adventure lifestyle. Val liftshim up and sets him down out of her way and walks out, telling him off. Again. Dr Strange is meditating in the park and almost gets beaned in the face by an errant baseball (he magics it in time) and he moves on, running into a political rally. He mystically "oants" the candidate then is surprised he would pull a prank like that. he looks at a newspaper and we see the Bozo leader (Nebulon in disguise) and an announcement that Ruby Thursday is running for office. Meanwhile, Hulk is in the Southwest (we are told to see his own title; but, I flip Marvel the "bird" in response). he comes across a protest against an exploitation film, called Waste, which alleges to depict the actual death of an actress (which is faked). Hulk smashes things and the ladies scatter, and one runs into a restroom.... Hulk is confused by his actions and hops away. meanwhile, someone tosses a rock through the Sanctum's window, with a nope about harboring Commies. Tania goes after them, after telling Bird Nose and Cage to keep out of it. They tell Val and Norriss starts screeching and Kyle asks what it takes to shut him up.... Tania catches up to the pers, three goons in stocking masks (when i originally read this comic, in the 70s, it took me a minute to realize that that was what was making their faces look weird, as it isn't an easy effect to draw). She biffs them and bops them and an old lady asks what the commotion is. Tania explains and asks to use her phone. They chat for a moment, then the old lady reveals she is part of the scheme, which seems related to Jews in the Soviet Union (without identifying them), based on the USSR's emigration policy (see "thoughts" below). Out comes a bruiser in a hood, who Tania throws a table at and leaps out the window. he pursues and smashes a car. tania actually uses brains to assess his abilities and figures out his strength is all in his arms and discovers that he has cybernetic limbs. He tries to smash her and gets entangled in a steel door. She heads back to the Sanctum and Doc has also returned and asks about Jack. We are told to go to the defenders Annual for the answers. Thoughts: This comic was released at the start of the summer of 1976, one month before the Bicentennial Celebration and before the summer political conventions for the first presidential election, after the resignation of Richard Nixon. Things were pretty hot, politically, as Gerald Ford had succeeded Nixon, without standing for election. He had been appointed to the Vice Presidency to replace the disgraced Spiro Agnew and then assumed the presidency when the disgraced Nixon resigned (in advance of articles of impeachment facing a vote in the House). The country was deepin a recession, with rapidly rising inflation and Ford was seen as practically impotent. His Whip Inflation Now (WIN) campaign was largely seen as an empty joke. Ford was the subject of constant ridicule on the newly launched Saturday Night Live, with Chevy Chase stumbling and falling, based on a couple of incidents with President Ford, where he slipped on a wet aircraft steps, in the rain, and another tripping incident, making him look accident prone (he also beaned a spectator with an errant golf ball, at a charity tournament, at one point). The Democratic race had been hot, as they appeared to have a strong chance to take the presidency. Ted Kennedy was thought to be the lead candidate; but, he was dogged by the Chappaquiddick Incident. California governor Jerry brown was also a candidate; but, Georgia governor Jimmy Carter emerged as the party's candidate and eventual winner of the election, in an extremely close vote. Gerber is poking fun at politics, while also advancing the expansion of the Bozo lunacy that is enveloping things, which comes to a head in the Defenders Annual. Now, as to the background for the unnamed group that attack Tanya. At the time, the USSR was under the premiership of Leonid Brezhnev. The USSR had blocked emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel, in part due to political retaliation by Brezhnev. There was a lot of international pressure to allow Soviet Jews to leave, especially given the history of the Jews in the territory, both under the tsars and the Communists. A deal was eventually reached to allow a large group to leave the country. Gerber never names them as Jews, although the old woman is named as Mrs Rosenzweig. He just speaks of emigration policies of the USSR and 4000 years of bondage. As it is, we also don't know anything about how the hooded guy got the bionics. Really, this was just a story to highlight Red Guardian and give her something to do, seeing that she is a new character. It does throw off the pacing of the Nebulon storyline (and the Headmen). As intriguing and gonzo as Gerber's stuff was, it was all over the place and really needed some editorial guidance to give it a better structure. While Gerber represented unrestrained creativity, he illustrated that there needed to be some oversight to help direct that creativity; an editor. Editors in comics have always been a two-edged sword. Many were not editors in the sense of mainstream publishing. Often they were failed writers or mid-range writers, who got the job due to connections. A very few were actually editors who did what an editor should: read the work, make constructive criticisms that will help improve things, encourage good work, coordinate the production of the work, and handle the bookkeeping for payment. In comics, due to short deadlines and a long history of chasing the fast buck, editors were often buying stories and then rushing out the book or, making changes to justify their authority. For many eras, the editors like Archie Goodwin and Dick Gordano were a rare breed, where they encouraged creativity and also provided constructive feedback on how to make the story better. Marvel's expansion overwhelmed the editor-in-chief position, as one person couldn't oversee the entire line. It resulted in chaos that was ultimately resolved by spreading editorial duties, freeing the EIC to deal with the larger publishing matters for the company. Next, we wrap up all of this mess, in the Defenders Annual and boy is it going to be weird!
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 16:38:04 GMT -5
ps: Val's new costume? Va-va-voom!. The gold color is a bit too close to flesh tone, which is probably why they switched it to white, with the gold boots. Having Val accept it immediately seems at odd with her character, as she is a warrior and it isn't really a warrior's armor. He previous costume was mostly inaccurate cliche, based on operatic depictions of the Valkyrie (Wagner, mainly); but, it suggested Viking warrior more than a gold one shoulder bathing suit and thigh boots.
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Post by Rob Allen on Sept 6, 2018 16:58:53 GMT -5
I've always wondered whether the Bozos here were some kind of reference to the 1971 Firesign Theatre album I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus and/or the Grateful Dead's 1972 tour of Europe, during which the entourage rode in two buses which became known as the Bozo bus and the Bolo bus. The ones from the Bozo bus wore Bozo the Clown masks during at least one concert.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 17:09:14 GMT -5
I've always wondered whether the Bozos here were some kind of reference to the 1971 Firesign Theatre album I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus and/or the Grateful Dead's 1972 tour of Europe, during which the entourage rode in two buses which became known as the Bozo bus and the Bolo bus. The ones from the Bozo bus wore Bozo the Clown masks during at least one concert. That would probably fit into Gerber's sphere on influences; certainly his sensibilities.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 17:12:17 GMT -5
pps I forgot about the other part; ELF WITH A GUN!!!!!!!!
This one seems nastier than the others. Probably because the woman was part of a group of women, protesting an exploitive "snuff film," thereby reinforcing the negative imagery. I suspect that was kind of Gerber's point here, along with the general randomness of the Elf character, representing random violence. The "Oh, M-i--i-iss...." dialogue certainly makes it creepier.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 6, 2018 23:17:15 GMT -5
Defenders Annual #1Guest starring President Ger.....WHOOPS..........WHOA............AUGH...ERP....................NO PROBLEM............ Creative Team: Gerber, Buscema & Janson; John Costanza-letters, Don Warfield-colors, Archie Goodwin-greatly missed. Synopsis: Buckle up boys and girls; it's gonna be a wild ride! The Defenders are at their Non-HQ, at the converted riding academy, in Nassau Cty, NY. They are watching a videotape from Jack Norriss....... (Don't know why anyone would paint "A World Gone Sane?" on a conference table; but, Kyle Richmond paid them to do it) He recaps the past several issues (about a year's worth of story, really) and then says he is going undercover. What a tool! (Ps, the image of Nebulon's short, bald facade looks rather like Julie Schwartz!) Basically, he says that Doc's problems with his magic, Hulk's attacking the protesters and Val overreacting to the anti-commies was due to Naga messing with their minds, when they were prisoners. Nighthawk makes smart-ass comments and Doc actually defends Jack's assumptions (if not his methods). He also surmises that they were programmed to attack mass movements, as a way to allow the Headmen to manipulate things, but didn't count on nebulon and his Bozos thing. Doc says they same probably working at cross purposes, without knowing it. newspapers speak of the Bozos in Paris, murders in India, Ruby Thursday campaigning in California, and the Bozo leader about to be made a UN envoy, in NY. Doc splits the team and sends Nighthawk and Red Guardian to Paris, Cage and Val are sent to India, Dr Strange goes to Washington, after surmising that Jack is in LA. In Paris, RG and Bird-Nose witness a public spectacle, involving Madame Guillotine (as Gerber proceeds to engage in French stereotypes, short of calling them cheese-eating surrender monkeys). A critic of the Bozos is dragged up before it, when Bird-Nose rescues him and RG upsets the guillotine. They nab a female Bozo and try to interrogate her; but she resists. RG uses her disguise to infiltrate the Paris HQ, while Kyle talks to the intended victim, who represents a PR firm that is working for a company that Richmond Enterprises recently bought. They asked for the editorials and such. Turns out, the company is headed by a man whose name is an anagram of Arthur Nagan. RG gets inside and see the Ludbite aliens, then stands before a monitor to speak to the boss. he recognizes that her self assurance is at odds with the original girl's profile and sends her for reconditioning. Bird-Nose figures out that the Headmen are manipulating industry and government, through this firm. he goes to find the Bozos HQ and it has disappeared. Dr Morgan shows up and zaps him, too. In India, gerber insults the entire sub-continent, while the people of New Delhi are shown dressed like Hadji, on Jonny Quest and are as caucasian as Valkyrie (there are a variety of ethnic groups in India, including the real Aryans; but, this is just ridiculous). There, they run into what the papers call assassins, though Thugee is probably more correct (based on stereotypes) They also ran into Nagan, who has been shrinking people, as a means of population control (more room and resources, instantly). Cage and Val gets nabbed. In LA, Jack thinks he is James Bond (and Gerber didn't read Dr No, where Major Boothroyd belittles Bond's Beretta .25). He meets a contact, who takes him to ruby's campaign HQ, where she is smoking a corncob pipe, surrounded by feminists. She spots him for a phony and he is conked onthe head and taken prisoner. he uses spy gadgets to escape and force Ruby to unveil her powers and spherical head. Doesn't help, as he is outclassed. In Washington, Chevy Chase, I mean Gerald Ford is off to meet Mr nebul (the bald dude that is secretly Nebulon) when he vanishes and appears on an asteroid in space, in front of Dr Strange. Doc tries to warn about Nebulon.. Who shows up to rebut. The debate philosophical differences, while hurling spells and energies at one another, while Ford makes with the brown trousers. Eventually, nebulon whisks Ford away, messes with his head and he is about to make a public announcement, that Doc interrupts... Doc and the President disappear and we see that the Headmen are behind it. They are all shrunken and held under a dome; but, Doc goes quiet and Chondu recognizes that he is using his astral form to summon help.... Ruby attacks and Hulk smashes the dome, releasing everyone. Fists fly and Doc uses the Eye of Agamotto to show the truth of humanity to Nebulon and defeat him, while the rest beat up the Headmen. And, the end finally comes. Thoughts: Well, that was weird and not as clever as Gerber thought. The Headmen are manipulating things; but, it seems kind of strung together, last minute, unlike the conspiracy at the heart of Watchmen. There is a lot of social commentary, a lot of insulting stereotype, and Doc saves the day, though he does need the Hulk's physical help.. It's all very philosophical and more than a bit headscratching. One things is for sure; it's different! This, more or less, brings things to an end for Gerber. He has one more issue, as a sort of epilogue; then, gerry conway will come to send things in a more traditional area.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 7, 2018 17:24:34 GMT -5
I've always wondered whether the Bozos here were some kind of reference to the 1971 Firesign Theatre album I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus and/or the Grateful Dead's 1972 tour of Europe, during which the entourage rode in two buses which became known as the Bozo bus and the Bolo bus. The ones from the Bozo bus wore Bozo the Clown masks during at least one concert. I think you're right - the title of the story in Defenders #34 was I Think We're All Bozos in This Book!
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