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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 17, 2018 1:10:04 GMT -5
Really, the only deaths that have held are civilians that are required for the her origin: the Wayne's, Jor-El and Lara, and Uncle Ben. That no longer holds true for Jor-El, apparently. And probably won't for any of the others, when some desperate writer and/or editor goes looking for a stunt. They all have the attention span of a gnat and they assume the audience does, too. In many cases, they are probably right; but, in a niche market, memories are long.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 17, 2018 6:33:08 GMT -5
Which superhero death made death irrelevant in comic books? Many, but I will say Bucky Barnes. When Stan Lee decided to retcon Bucky's fate in The Avengers #4, instead of getting rid of teen age sidekicks (which he has repeatedly said he never liked), he fueled the opposite reaction: turning Bucky into (arguably) the second most important teen sidekick in comics history, right behind Robin/Dick Grayson. More to the point, he also gave the revived Captain America one of the greatest, most effective weights of tragedy of any comic character. The entire re-introduction of Bucky--from endless flashback stories, character recollections, to impostors, androids, robots, replacements and time travel, Bucky was that one, interesting, yet tragic figure who stood as the ultimate example of a grave, heroic sacrifice that could not be wiped away. It shaped Captain America's life and decisions for decades, while providing that spectre that the Marvel Universe--when killing a non-powered teenager--was not a safe place at all. You rarely experienced that feeling from a super-powered character dying, as they were--at least--some equal footing to or not as vulnerable as a superpowered and/or enhanced enemy. Bucky was just a well-trained young man who battled through a world war and beings far beyond his human limits, but he never turned away from it, so with his death, Marvel felt like a place of real consequences. That was all wiped away with the Winter Soldier plot, which was just another tired spy trope (the old, brainwashed / "I thought you died, but now you're an enemy!") on comic-book steroids, nearly rendering all of the considerable dramatic capital built for Captain America as irrelevant. One can say, "well, those old stories still work because he actually thought Bucky was dead", but the Winter Soldier idea just boiled all that down to, "well....he was wrong", erasing the once dark legacy Cap had to live with. That Brubaker story just makes all comic superhero death stink as the next "shock" gimmick.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 17, 2018 8:07:42 GMT -5
Bringing back Bucky was terrible but the worst was bringing back Barry Allen after 30 years. That's what happens when a fanboy becomes a writer.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jul 17, 2018 11:16:20 GMT -5
Death is powerful. I would agree that I think Jean Grey opened the door for it. Elektra's death, for me, was powerful but her revival was also shrouded in mystery and still worked for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 15:31:52 GMT -5
Elektra's death, for me, was powerful but her revival was also shrouded in mystery and still worked for me. I agree with this and this death and revival always a big mystery to me. Point well taken!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 15:59:30 GMT -5
I'll agree - Jean Grey, not least because the way the resurrected her was such a dreadful story.
Up until that time, death was moderately real in Marvel comics - if you didn't actually see the character dismembered "on camera", you knew they were fair game to come back, but once Jean came back, actual death became absolutely meaningless, completely vitiating the impact of any character's death, because you knew they'd be back, generally within the next year or so. You could sort of argue a case that a character called Phoenix should be able to come back, but it opened the gates for everyone to come back, without even sensible explanations for how them came back. The characters even talk about death being temporary in the books themselves!
The really stupid thing about bringing Jean Grey back was that she wasn't even a particuarly good character, and hasn't been especially well used since.
Also agree that bringing Boring Barry back as the Flash was a terrible decision - the relaunch of the Flash with a muich slower Wally, after CoIE, made a really stupidly over-powerful character interesting again, not that that lasted for long.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 17, 2018 17:49:35 GMT -5
I really liked the Phoenix story... that having done as much damage and killing as she did Phoenix had to die. I would be with Shooter on that. Had she not died it would've been a big problem for me even at 12 or 13 when I was buying those off the spinner-rack. But even at the time I knew phoenixes rise from their ashes. I had no problem at all with jean Grey having been merely copied by the Phoenix entity and being found down under Jamaica Bay. That was wonderful idea of Kurt Busiek's and for the most part how Byrne got to carry it out was great too, but there was some Editorial stepping in (yet again) and messing with the end for it somehow which I'm not too clear on, to set up X-Factor (which I bought for three issues). I'm saying I liked the death of Phoenix at the time and that Jean Grey was alive after all a few years later, a very up note for the last few super character titles I bought amidst all the super-heroines getting killed over the first half of the '80s which disgusted and depressed me.
Now all that exploiting of the the Phoenix thing Claremont and Marvel did after X-Men #137, pretty much everything aside from Jean Grey being found alive by the Avengers and Fantastic Four... dogshit to me. Kitty 'pretending' to be Phoenix (#157)? Ick! Her bedtime story incorporating Phoenix (#153), double ick! What If, Madeline Pryor, Untold Story... pure exploitation of fans and fannish curiosity (maybe if they had the Untold issue as it would've been, but it was a botched reconstruction, not what would've appeared). Only the alternate future Rachel Summers character was passable.
I think that Superman death was totally meaningless and entirely sales and publicity based. As much as all the super-females getting killed and tortured and graphically displayed during it, the big S going through the same lame shtick was the most 'kill them all then' moment for me, but I had quite reading and buying by then. I would've felt stupid getting in line for variant covers so a black baggied collectable made to be collectable? Nope. I was gone and as far as I knew never coming back.
I can agree that the death of Phoenix was a bad influence though, absolutely! But as some here will say about Alan Moore or whoever, if that was done well and the imitators were done poorly, is the original wrong?
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 17, 2018 17:59:08 GMT -5
You'd think they just had Phoenix/Jean Grey reassemble themselves like that Klaw sonic villain guy was often enough doing. I don't get how Jean not having been Phoenix after all made anything cheapened? It was her copied humanity that made the Phoenix entity at all human, and to have Jean Grey not corrupted to pure evil by all that Hellfire club and Mastermind decadence junk was a victory to me. I'm totally glad she was salvaged so logically from the mess Shooter and Claremont imposed, she deserved a better fate. Phoenix destroyed a solar system and a ship full of people, they'd wanted her to become a villain, but I'd rather go with the Phoenix had to die line, but Jean Grey deserved to live to me... of course then some fool had to put them together again, and yatta-yatta-yatta. Argh.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 17, 2018 19:15:15 GMT -5
While I get why people don't like that Jean came back, she was the PHOENIX.. why choose that name if she wasn't destined to come back?
I think it was Superman. Sure, no one really thought he was gone forever, but he came back REALLY fast. Gwen Stacy wasn't too long after, IIRC, that was the final nail, IMO, where there was really just no doubt anyone would just come back if the writer wanted them.
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Post by rberman on Jul 18, 2018 9:04:17 GMT -5
"Phoenix" is the most obvious answer since her death was such a critically acclaimed and fan-approved story, and her resurrection undertaken for dubious business reasons that undermined the direction of the story. But it was just pointed out in the X-Men thread that X-Men had already resurrected Professor X, who was dead from issues #42-65 and then brought back with a "No, I was just pretending to be dead so I could get some work done. Hope you didn't miss me too much..." So I can see how Shooter and the X-Factor folks felt they were actually standing on precedent, not breaking a sacrosanct tradition.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 9:20:31 GMT -5
The reversal of a death of a hero was established way before comic books. After all Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back after 10 yrs. Holmes was "killed" in 1893 and brought "back to life" in 1903. The events in the novels were only said to be a period of 3 years (1891-1894).
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Post by String on Jul 18, 2018 10:38:43 GMT -5
Death of Superman is the exception to the rule. If I recall correctly, when DC first announced the event, it was a slow news day which is why some of the larger news outlets started carrying the publicity. Speculators became immediately invested while casual fans who may have known of Superman only through TV and movies suddenly were shocked that DC would kill an American icon thus swelling the popularity.
As for the event itself, to the best of my knowledge, there was more involved than it perhaps being simply a sales gimmick. Group editor Mike Carlin and his creative teams had apparently wanted to marry Superman at the time but this effort was put on hold when it was learned that Superman was going to get married on the Lois & Clark: New Adventures of Superman TV show. In an effort to find a new direction at their yearly creative summit, it was decided to pursue the notion that had been offered before jokingly (I think by Stern) of 'Let's kill him'.
The story line lasted for nearly an entire year and ran through four concurrent titles, hardly a speedy return. Sure, comic fans knew that he wasn't going to stay dead so that only added to the growing mystery surrounding the appearance of the four new Supermen. Besides creating new, lasting characters as both heroes and villains, the creative team went the extra mile in showing the effect of Superman's death upon the DC hero community, his supporting cast at the time, and the DCU in general. So it wasn't just some mere sales stunt, it was an engaging epic that lead to new layers and themes and characters for the entire Superman mythos. Quite simply, it's a classic.
As for Jean Grey, yes, sales were part of the formula involved in bringing her back, in re-uniting the original X-Men to entice and excite new and old fans alike. However, I have little issue for how they brought her back, based upon Busiek's idea, Stern & Bryne crafted an amazing rebirth that did not alter the impact of the DP saga. The original saga still holds up on it' drama and emotion while this rebirth simply added a new layer of mystery and drama to the event. It expanded themes for the Phoenix Force and it may have also wiped away the supposed crimes of Jean herself. For better or worse, the consequences of this rebirth are still being felt today.
No, in answer to the OP, I have to agree with tarkintino, it's Bucky Barnes. For me, the main difference here is that Jean Grey never suffered from the stigma of 'needing to stay dead'. Jean was 'dead' from '80-'86 and while Claremont showed the effects of her passing on the team and her loved ones, I never got the feeling that she was required to stay dead in order for the characters to be relevant. (Yes, let's be slightly pedantic, it was in her code name for goodness sakes).
Unlike with Bucky, who, as tarkintino mentioned, was given tragic relevance for Cap since his revival in our modern era. The stigma of that tragedy has haunted Steve for decades and provided an extra dramatic underpinning for a man out of his time. I've always heard that the only two characters who can never return from the dead are Bucky and Uncle Ben.
That's what makes Brubaker's accomplishment so amazing and frustrating. Again, in these instances, the creativity involved in how these rebirths are handled is important, Brubaker fashioned a compelling and entertaining story that undid a hero's tragic death and reforged a comic bond of friendship through hardship and triumph. Fans loved it and the Winter Soldier has since become quite prominent (imagine what the MCU films would be without him).
By the same token though, Brubaker showed that with such creativity, no death can ever be viewed as permanent even the ones thought to be set in stone. Jor-El is back, Thomas Wayne returned as the Batman of Flashpoint and through events in Rebirth, had a profound effect on Bruce's choice to remain Batman. Heck, even Uncle Ben has come back as once seen in Slott's Spider-Universe event where in an alternate world, Peter learned that it was Ben who was bitten by the spider and not him.
The only death seemingly immune to this effect is Mar-Vell. I think it's because of the close association of Starlin with the character as well as how he died, not from some super-villain's mad scheme but the very real threat of cancer.
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Post by rberman on Jul 18, 2018 13:52:50 GMT -5
As for Jean Grey, yes, sales were part of the formula involved in bringing her back, in re-uniting the original X-Men to entice and excite new and old fans alike. However, I have little issue for how they brought her back, based upon Busiek's idea, Stern & Bryne crafted an amazing rebirth that did not alter the impact of the DP saga. The original saga still holds up on it' drama and emotion while this rebirth simply added a new layer of mystery and drama to the event. It expanded themes for the Phoenix Force and it may have also wiped away the supposed crimes of Jean herself. For better or worse, the consequences of this rebirth are still being felt today. I was one of the many who felt that the manner of Jean's rebirth did fundamentally alter the original Phoenix story, because it retconned who the character was for all the important issues. I would not have had a problem (or at least not as much of a problem) with a rebirth along the lines of "Jean did kill herself, but the nature of Phoenix is to rise from the ashes. So sure enough, up on the moon, Jean eventually coalesces back into a person who returns to Earth and..." This is actually not that far from what Grant Morrison did with Phoenix in "Here Comes Tomorrow," and if I recall correctly, Chris Claremont did something similar in "X-Men: The End." But that's not what we got. Instead we got "Jean was never Phoenix. Phoenix entombed Jean and made a simulacrum of Jean. Phoenix pretended to be Jean but wasn't very good at it in the long run and started doing Cosmic Things like eating planets and eventually decided that it needed to shed its human form altogether." In the second (actual) version I gave, Jean and Scott's relationship gets rewound past so many major moments. Think of all the things that happened to Phoenix-playing-Jean and Scott in the retcon, instead of actually happening to Jean and Scott. I would rather have these moments represent an actual human-human interaction, than have Jean back alive and not having actually done these things, with Scott thinking, "Boy, that sure was a convincing duplicate!" That is why the manner of Jean's resurrection was a bummer, irrespective of how long she'd been dead.
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Post by The Captain on Jul 18, 2018 14:33:09 GMT -5
Which superhero death made death irrelevant in comic books? Many, but I will say Bucky Barnes. When Stan Lee decided to retcon Bucky's fate in The Avengers #4, instead of getting rid of teen age sidekicks (which he has repeatedly said he never liked), he fueled the opposite reaction: turning Bucky into (arguably) the second most important teen sidekick in comics history, right behind Robin/Dick Grayson. More to the point, he also gave the revived Captain America one of the greatest, most effective weights of tragedy of any comic character. The entire re-introduction of Bucky--from endless flashback stories, character recollections, to impostors, androids, robots, replacements and time travel, Bucky was that one, interesting, yet tragic figure who stood as the ultimate example of a grave, heroic sacrifice that could not be wiped away. It shaped Captain America's life and decisions for decades, while providing that spectre that the Marvel Universe--when killing a non-powered teenager--was not a safe place at all. You rarely experienced that feeling from a super-powered character dying, as they were--at least--some equal footing to or not as vulnerable as a superpowered and/or enhanced enemy. Bucky was just a well-trained young man who battled through a world war and beings far beyond his human limits, but he never turned away from it, so with his death, Marvel felt like a place of real consequences. That was all wiped away with the Winter Soldier plot, which was just another tired spy trope (the old, brainwashed / "I thought you died, but now you're an enemy!") on comic-book steroids, nearly rendering all of the considerable dramatic capital built for Captain America as irrelevant. One can say, "well, those old stories still work because he actually thought Bucky was dead", but the Winter Soldier idea just boiled all that down to, "well....he was wrong", erasing the once dark legacy Cap had to live with. That Brubaker story just makes all comic superhero death stink as the next "shock" gimmick. I know you are a big Captain America fan as I am from your great posts in my review thread, but I will respectfully disagree with you here. The fact that Brubaker wrote a story, contrived or tired as you feel it may be (which I did not) to explain how Bucky, long thought dead but somehow alive, does not erase Cap's "dark legacy" or render the dramatic capital for Cap as irrelevant. Let me use a close, but not perfect, analogy to explain: I'm dating a girl in college, both of us hopelessly happy with each other and considering marriage. I buy the ring, she says "yes", and we're making plans for our future. One day, out of the blue, she returns the ring and says she can't marry me, then drops out of school and despite my best attempts, I am unable to contact her; she's become a ghost. I'm devastated, wondering where it went wrong, if it was my fault, and what I could have done to make her stay, and I become increasingly bitter about relationships and love. I spend the next 10 years of my life frequenting strip clubs and picking up women of questionable morals in bars for one-night stands, figuring the only way to keep myself safe and not get hurt again is to avoid all meaningful relationships and just focus on my basest needs. My life is in a tailspin of alcohol, drugs, and pointless sex, affecting every thing and every one around me, including my job and my relationships with friends and family. Then, out of the blue, I'm traveling for work and I run into my college love in another town. She avoids me at first, but I manage to get a conversation out of her, during which I learn that she had gotten pregnant but miscarried our child while we were in school and, unable to face me with the news as she knew I wanted children with her more than anything, she ran out in shame and pain. Knowing I could find her at her parents' home, she moved in with a cousin and finished school elsewhere, hoping to forget the past because of how she felt she had let me down. We talk further and realize that we never stopped loving each other, and from there, we start to rebuild the relationship we once had. Now, does the fact that I thought her gone ("dead" to me, to carry the initial conversation about Bucky into here) erase the "dark legacy" of my decade without her? Does the damage I did, both to myself and those around me, suddenly become moot because we one day reconnect, and am I ever able to really escape the torture I put myself through for those 10 years? Absolutely not, because every moment of our lives shapes the next moment, both the good and the bad. Even if this girl and I managed to rekindle our relationship, even to the point of considering marriage again, there would always be part of me wondering if she was going to run out again or if my past could come back to haunt us. To me, the old stories still work, because of the very fact that Cap acted on his assumption, wrong as it was, that Bucky was dead. He was haunted by the memory of his "dead" friend, tortured by Bucky's image by numerous foes, and even tried to replace his companion with others (Rick Jones, Jack Monroe, Lemar Hoskins, etc.), all because of the pain he felt because he BELIEVED his friend to be dead, even though he had no proof. The fact that Brubaker revived Bucky doesn't erase or diminish the legacy but adds to it, making it richer, because Cap then had to process the fact his friend had been turned and he was going to do everything he could to save him as he could not the first time.
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Post by badwolf on Jul 18, 2018 15:52:39 GMT -5
I was one of the many who felt that the manner of Jean's rebirth did fundamentally alter the original Phoenix story, because it retconned who the character was for all the important issues. I agree with you 100%. The story of her "resurrection" ruins all of these wonderful stories. Fortunately I am good at compartmentalizing so I can still enjoy them.
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