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Post by sabongero on Jul 16, 2018 11:13:35 GMT -5
I am thinking Death of Superman. I mean killing off Superman, and bringing him back immediately, really cheapened superhero deaths even more so than before that event. Anyone can die and be brought back immediately. It's as if the death of a superhero is now a commercial event and not an actual comic book universe death. The Image Founders believed it was not them, but DC killing off Superman that really contributed to the downfall of the comic book industry in the 90's. I can't totally agree with that though. But Death of Superman did damage indeed.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 16, 2018 11:14:34 GMT -5
Bringing back Jean Grey in 1986.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 16, 2018 11:26:06 GMT -5
Jean Grey. The moment they reversed that, the door was open. By the time of Superman, everyone who was a regular reader of comics knew he wasn't dead or not for very long. Only the clueless media and speculators thought it was final.
Death was never that permanent in comics. Too many villains had come back from seeming final endings. The Comet, one of the first heroes to be killed, was back, in the Silver Age, though few noticed. Bucky was one of the few that stuck for a long period of time; but, there were teases, with people like Rick Jones taking up the role.
There were few deaths in comics and mostly old characters who weren't being used. DC killed the Batman and Catwoman of Earth-2, to give the Huntress more of a backstory; but, they weren't in use because the Earth-1 characters were dominant. They killed Mr Terrific when no one cared and most had no clue about the character. He wasn't much of a character, to begin with, until James Robinson got his hands on him and showed how you could make a guy who succeeds at everything interesting. With Jean Grey, it was a big deal. There was a body, there was a death scene, there was mourning. We had teases of her return; but, they were revealed as hoaxes. It was final that she was dead. Then, she wasn't. It wasn't a spectacular storyline that brought her back, either. She was revived to launch X-Factor, a rather mundane series, despite Walt Simonson's involvement. It would have been a bigger deal had Madeline Pryor been revealed to actually be Jean reincarnated. No, Jean's so-very definite death and quick stunt return is where I feel that death, as a story device, went out the window.
No, Wein's Rule was a constant: No one is dead unless you see a body and not always then.
Really, the only deaths that have held are civilians that are required for the her origin: the Wayne's, Jor-El and Lara, and Uncle Ben. After that, the only hero death of consequence, that has stuck, is Mar-Vell. Even when Thanos, Pip, Gamora, and Warlock & Drax were all revived, an issue of Silver Surfer affirmed that Mar-Vell was well and truly dead, leaving a continued line of lesser Captain Marvel's, related and unrelated.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 16, 2018 11:33:16 GMT -5
Bringing back Jean Grey in 1986. Off the top of my head this is the most likely culprit. Nobody with any sense thought that Superman was going to stay dead. It was always a stunt. Bringing Jean Grey back, particularly given the meaning of her death versus the way she was brought back essentially made death completely meaningless.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 16, 2018 11:46:44 GMT -5
Bringing back Jean Grey in 1986. Off the top of my head this is the most likely culprit. Nobody with any sense thought that Superman was going to stay dead. It was always a stunt. Bringing Jean Grey back, particularly given the meaning of her death versus the way she was brought back essentially made death completely meaningless. Sadly ironic, too, that Chris Claremont did not want her to die AND did not want her brought back. But who cared what the guy who made The X-Men The X-Men wanted, right?
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Post by chromehead on Jul 16, 2018 14:00:41 GMT -5
Probably far less notable than Jean, but they brought Electra back as well.
Hitting on this in another thread (about Knightfall), but killing off and bringing back Superman made for a decent story to read, at least.
I think what's really killed the concept are the big deaths in the 00's that were hyped in the media and undone in just a matter of years: Captain America, The Human Torch, Spider-Man, Hawkeye, Thor. It's really meaningless now.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 16, 2018 14:28:20 GMT -5
In terms of willing suspension of disbelief, it was a disaster. Nobody cares who dies in comics nowadays, because any character will be brought back the second enough readers ask for it or a writer wants to use them.
Dramatically, it also deprives readers of a very poignant part of life, even if it is only the life of make-believe characters: that of mourning.
The death of Jean Grey and the way her boyfriend picked up the pieces of his life was a powerful and ultimately hopeful story.
The death of Guardian in Alpha Flight was cut from the same cloth, and may have been even more powerful because he was basically the lynchpin of the series. What do you do when the focal point of your life vanishes? The way his wife and friends carried on was moving, and was a great lesson to young readers who may not have known major losses yet.
Nowadays there is no mourning. Characters may gnash their teeth, but it is a staged emotion, nothing more. As Agent Brand said when apprised of Jean Grey’s latest death, “yeah, that will last”. We have replaced melancholia with cynicism.
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Post by rberman on Jul 16, 2018 14:34:23 GMT -5
The related phenomenon is "Character casts aside his hero job, and the mantle is picked up by another character for a while. Sam Wilson becomes Captain America, Jane Foster becomes Thor, etc. What was the Index Case of this phenomenon? Was it Knightfall, or Death of Superman, or something earlier?
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jul 16, 2018 14:39:02 GMT -5
The related phenomenon is "Character casts aside his hero job, and the mantle is picked up by another character for a while. Sam Wilson becomes Captain America, Jane Foster becomes Thor, etc. What was the Index Case of this phenomenon? Was it Knightfall, or Death of Superman, or something earlier? Marvel did this with many of their major characters in the late 1980's. Tony Stark was replaced by Rhodey, Steve Rogers was replaced by Johnny Walker, and Thor was replaced with Eric Masterson, one right after the other. Dc's run of doing this with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, was a couple years later. The first that comes to mind is Captain America becoming Nomad in Captain America #180 back in the early 1970's, with a series of replacement figures trying and failing to become the new Cap. That was a short, one-off storyline, as he was back in the costume by #184, but the themes in it - the person inside the costume is more important than the costume - remained the same for all the longer, later versions.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 16, 2018 15:28:08 GMT -5
This is related to why I left Marvel and DC in my reading. They did make death irrelevant, and then insisted on doing a yearly mega-crossover event, screwing the storylines in all their books, and making sure there was an "important" death in the process. In fact I think some of those fiascos started with "Who do we kill this year?"
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 16, 2018 16:23:22 GMT -5
I'd say Hal, but would you even really able to classify his as a "death"? All he really did was become a newer iteration of the Spectre once Parallax got free
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Post by james on Jul 16, 2018 18:09:37 GMT -5
Jean Grey.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 16, 2018 18:20:04 GMT -5
Jean Grey’s death, in the long term, and more importantly her return, did make death in comics irrelevant.
But in the short term, her demise also ushered in a deplorable trend: that of killing important characters for shock value.
Karate Kid, almost the entire supporting cast of Rom, Glenn Talbot, Thunderbolt Ross, Spider-Woman, Biotron, Ned Leeds... and I’m not even counting secondary characters like everyone Scourge murdered. Heck, even whole countries, planets or universes would be sacrificed... Bye-bye, Microverse; adieu, Counter-Earth; thanks for the memories, Savage Land. (And multiple Earths? What are they?)
Such deaths and cataclysms made the c9miccomic-book universes poorer, not richer.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 16, 2018 21:36:35 GMT -5
Probably far less notable than Jean, but they brought Electra back as well. Hitting on this in another thread (about Knightfall), but killing off and bringing back Superman made for a decent story to read, at least. I think what's really killed the concept are the big deaths in the 00's that were hyped in the media and undone in just a matter of years: Captain America, The Human Torch, Spider-Man, Hawkeye, Thor. It's really meaningless now. Yeah; but, Frank Miller is the one who brought her back. Well, sort of. His ending was left up to the reader whether it was real or metaphorical, as she wasn't used again until his graphic novel. Then, she was fully brought back.
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 17, 2018 1:03:05 GMT -5
Really, the only deaths that have held are civilians that are required for the her origin: the Wayne's, Jor-El and Lara, and Uncle Ben. That no longer holds true for Jor-El, apparently.
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