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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2019 18:09:18 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere #20Synopsis: Iron Fist is battling a bunch of Indian assassins, who are dressed like pro wrestlers. He dispatches them , while prof. Wing watches from a window. Danny then goes to Meachum industries to meet up with Joy, who yells at him, then tells him to come back, after getting a signal. he walks into another trap and is attacked by Batroc, who has been hired by Meachum to kill Iron Fist. Lots of kicking and throwing ensue, as Isabella and Jones demonstrate neither knowledge of kung fu styles or savatte. Which brings to mind...
Needs a couple of more captions; where the villain pulls Doc's peacoat over his head, it should say "Hockey Fight" and at the end, when he throws the dropkick, it should say "Pro Wrestling." The Gung Fu sequence is karate, as is the karate sequence. The Tai Chi is Gung Fu, since Gung Fu is a generic name for Chinese martial arts and an incorrect one, as it means mastery of an art, rather than martial skills, which is wu shu or wuxia). That Tai Chi looks more like the Snake Form of Shaolin Kung Fu Arvell Jones' fight sequence looks like he copied the figures from a martial arts reference, to a certain extent (mainly the throws).
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Post by brutalis on Feb 7, 2019 8:39:31 GMT -5
I think of Iron Fist as the Americanized version of Chinese martial arts movies. Where Shang Chi was the Master of more traditional Kung Fu stylings, Iron Fist struck me as being more in the flamboyant Superhero aspect. Chi was in the real world dirty covert ops/spy world and Fist was hanging with the capes and cowl crowd. So as long as the fights were interesting they didn't have to "ring true" to the martial arts. Byrne coming along as artist in a short while reinforces that viewpoint Of Fist's world.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 7, 2019 12:08:35 GMT -5
I think of Iron Fist as the Americanized version of Chinese martial arts movies. Where Shang Chi was the Master of more traditional Kung Fu stylings, Iron Fist struck me as being more in the flamboyant Superhero aspect. Chi was in the real world dirty covert ops/spy world and Fist was hanging with the capes and cowl crowd. So as long as the fights were interesting they didn't have to "ring true" to the martial arts. Byrne coming along as artist in a short while reinforces that viewpoint Of Fist's world. I'm merely highlighting how little anyone in comics knew about martial arts, at the time. Larry Hama studied Japanese arts; mainly judo, kyudo (archery) and iado (the drawing of the sword). These are all arts of the samurai. The sequences that Hama drew, with the ninja, showcased these well, as the sword handling is textbook. His Iron Fist is dynamic; but, his forms are a mix of karate and comic book. Arvell Jones is more pure comic book and his problems with figures cause the balance to be off in the scenes of kicks and punches. The one page looks like he got hold of a judo manual or article and copied the move sequences, as the leverage is a bit more accurate. I don't mind comic book martial arts, if the artist knows how to fake it well enough or can make it dynamic enough. I get pulled out of things when the artist handles it unevenly or when the writer uses generic and even incorrect terms. For me, it's the equivalent of a wrestling announcer saying "Whatta maneuver!" because he has no idea about the names of the specific maneuvers and has no background in or research of the profession. I had an interest in martial arts, as a kid, and was drawn to martial arts comics; but, few artists and writers did their research and that made them a bit less, coupled with the fact that many had rather weak villains. Master of Kung Fu was by far the best, under Moench and Gulacy (it was pretty shaky before Gulacy came on, in terms of action and villains). Gulacy did his homework, while Moench gave the characters personality and the world atmosphere. Gulacy used actual forms, from magazines, experience and Bruce Lee films (especially Enter the Dragon). That really helped make that come alive. I like Iron Fist, so I'm mostly poking fun at the martial arts, which are the equivalent of the pro wrestling "Crescent kick," under Arvell Jones and Gil Kane. Hama made it look better, which was a step in the right direction. Kane made it look dynamic and exciting, which is the way to fake it. Jones dropped the ball; and, looking at the pages, you wonder how he got the gig. Mostly, it looks like he had deadline problems and rushed it and Dan Green wasn't seasoned enough to cover. My scan has some bad coloring, too, which I can't tell if it was a source issue or a scanner setting issue. Vince Coletta inked Jones in the next issue, which had better figure work, though has some problem pages. Iron Fist started with great art and Arvell Jones is a hiccup in things and he is followed by a rookie Pat Broderick, before we get Byrne. Byrne was relatively polished by the time he had the feature, which helped quite a bit. I agree that Iron Fist is more superheroes, while MOKF was Bruce Lee-meets-James Bond, in Moench's hands (and Bruce Lee-meets-Fu Manchu in Englehart & Starlin's).
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Post by brutalis on Feb 7, 2019 13:31:22 GMT -5
I think almost nobody knew anything about the differences in the martial arts at the time besides writers and artists of comic books. Hollywood was exploiting a foreign film element they knew nothing about other than suddenly it was big news and selling all across America. No reason to think of accuracy when mimicry is the natural process. Corporations make their living off changing anything which already exists into some type of format or function that they can sell. Comic books jumped on the martial arts band wagon as quick as they could hoping to cash in with readers looking for something more exotic than the typical fisticuffs of the superhero world.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 7, 2019 14:32:50 GMT -5
Well, Marvel was bad about jumping on to fads and missing the essence of it (DC was just bad about jumping on to fads, period). They tried Blaxploitation, with Luke Cage and, to a lesser extent, Black Goliath; but, they missed the point. The Blaxploitation heroes were rebels who flaunted authority, were awesome lovers, snappy dressers, and BAD motha....shut your mouth!
Cage came closest; but, Code restrictions meant he was never going to be Shaft. hell, he wasn't even Black Samson (Cage could have used a pet lion). Black Goliath was even worse, as the height gimmick didn't play as well as super strength and invulnerability. Also, Tony Isabella just wasn't a street kind of guy. He did better with Black lightning; but, again, it was from a more suburban, white perspective.
With martial arts, they just seemed to copy the weapons and throw in stereotypes, based on some of the more mediocre films (a lot of cheap Shaw Brothers lesser efforts) and the Kung Fu tv series. Moench and Gulacy latched onto Enter the Dragon, which is probably the greatest martial arts film of all time (certainly the 70s), which has that mix of kung fu and espionage already, though they amped it up. Iron Fist starts out wanting to be Kung Fu, the tv series, with a bit of Lost Horizon; but, kind of flounders for a while, even when it went to series, until he linked up with Luke Cage. Then, it worked, as the two played well off of each other. They had the same problem when they tried pulp. Marvel's Doc Savage really never clicked, though the magazine version was better than the comic. DC did better with the Shadow, under O'Neil and Kaluta. Outside of that, they really struggled for that pulp atmosphere. Ironically, Moench captured it beautifully in Master of Kung Fu and in Moon Knight.
There were similar problems when they latched onto the horror trends of the 70s, as witnessed in Son of Satan, where they were swiping the Exorcist and failing miserably at being scary. Tomb of Dracula succeeded in creating great horror comics, as much due to Colan's style as anything. Ghost Rider succeeded, to a point, in mixing genres, mashing biker films and Evel Knievel with horror and supernatural. When it was gonzo, it was great. I think that is a bit of what was missing from both the attempts at Blaxploitation and martial arts. The essence of those films was the over-the-top presentation, which should have been perfect for comics, except too many involved were trying to be "serious" writers, instead of running with it. I think that is the difference between Iron Fist (at the start) and something like Mike Baron's Badger. Badger just went nuts with it and it was fun and memorable. My favorite there is the Hexbreaker graphic novel, where Badger goes off to the Enter the Dragon tournament, armed with a pair of wrenches, instead of the stereotypical martial arts weapons. That needs to be adapted into a movie, soon.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 7, 2019 14:57:10 GMT -5
Badger just went nuts with it and it was fun and memorable. My favorite there is the Hexbreaker graphic novel, where Badger goes off to the Enter the Dragon tournament, armed with a pair of wrenches, instead of the stereotypical martial arts weapons. That needs to be adapted into a movie, soon.OMG would an ongoing Badger for cable series be so damn good or what!?! Just follow Baron's scripts or let him be the show runner and that is a television show for the ages. Gonzo worked for 3 seasons of Ash vs Evil Dead so Badger should be a runaway train of success. But good ol' America probably couldn't handle or appreciate it...
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 14, 2019 14:54:16 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere #21A mix of old and new: chained women on sacrificial altars, disco-suited martial artists, and statues of death gods/godesses! Creative Team: Tony Isabella-choppy writing, Arvell Jones-sockie pencils, Vince Coletta-Inks of Fury, Stan Goldberg-Colors of the Dragon, Joe Rosen-Shaolin Letters, Len Wein-killed my master! Editorial change from Roy to Len, between issues. Vince Coletta probably brought in to give more polished inks to Jones' rough pencilling. Synopsis: After last issue's donnybrook, Batroc is sporting an injured wing and his band of wrestlers, martial artists and stereotypes is getting stitched up. Batroc isn't happy about the payoff (typical fight promoter tactics!) Batroc ain't having it and tells his men to meet at the docks, 'cause they are outta here. Ward meachum continues to snow his niece and plot Danny Rand's death. Rand returns to Prof Wing's house and finds dead fans of the Gama Singh... ...excuse me, "cult assassins," all over the house. then, he runs into Tamara Dobson..... ...or, maybe, Misty Knight. She wants to know what this cracker has done with Prof Wing and Colleen; but, the dude is, like innocent, you dig? Iron Fists meet one tough mama; but, a Vulcan nerve Pinch ends the fight and Misty goes down. The ghost of the ninja turns up and leads Danny out of the house, across town, and down into the subways, where we find a hidden temple to Kali... (who may be missing some arms, depending on the version of the goddesses' image you assume to be official). Prof Wing and Colleen are chained to the statue and out come Gama and the rest of Karachi Vice... and Danny starts kicking ass-assin. After beating the sweaty men, Danny runs into a couple of hotties... ...the Living Goddessessessesses! They are after the Wings for stealing something of theirs and tell Danny to step off. Prof Wing says the Book of Kali contains the secret of the destruction of K'un-Lun and Danny vows to protect it. The ladies jump into the fight and Shaya (the one with the cloak) swirls it around and creates total darkness, while Usha breaks out the glowing nunchucks. She hits Danny for six and more wrestlers attack, and Danny beats them easily (Fix! Come on ref, are you blind?) Prof Wing guides Danny to them and the Iron Fist breaks the chains. The statue is damaged and starts falling and Usha's nunchucks break up the debris, causing Shaya to drop the cloak of darkness to rescue her exhausted sister. Colleen joins the fight and starts busting up thuggeee, until one gets the drop on the Prof. He sneers, turns into the ninja and tears the assassin a new one. The Book of Kali gets dropped into a brazier, when the assassin holding it gets a shuriken in the back and it burns up. The ninja is split from the Prof, who collapses, crying and then the ninja vows to destroy Kun-Lun and is about to go Benihana on Danny Rand. Thoughts: First off, Vince Coletta does a lot to clean up Arvell Jones' work, compared to last issue. Figures are better, though the fight between Misty and Iron Fist is a bit weak in the figure detail. The story is pretty good, with plenty of pulpy death cults, hot warrior babes, people chained to altars, ghostly possession, and sacred books burning in fires. The only things missing are scenes of hordes of insects and people eating monkey brains. The second person narration wore out its welcome with the first story and its continued presence really annoys me. Arvell Jones throws out a couple of sight gags, outside Prof Wing's house, as there is a flyer promoting the election of Kieth Pollard (another Detroit pro) for Treasurer and a sign for Larry's Karate, which is likely to be Larry Hama. I have no idea why the thuggee/assassins are dressed like Indian wrestlers, ala Gama Singh; but, I suppose it isn't any worse than what we see in Gunga Din or Indian Jones and the Temple of Doom. In reference to the jokes above, Gama Singh was a wrestler in the Calgary-based Stampede Wrestling promotion, owned by the Hart Family (whose members include Bret "The Hitman" Hart and the late Owen Hart, of WWF/E fame). He generally played the heel, a rich bully from Pakistan. At one point, he was in a tag-team with wrestler Mike Shaw, who changed his name to Makhan Singh, and they were known as Karachi Vice (this was the 80s, when Miami Vice was at its zenith). Singh wrestled mostly in Canada, Asia and South Africa and remained a fixture in Calgary, while Shaw worked for WCW, as Norman the Lunatic, and then for the WWF as Friar Ferguson and the disgusting Bastion Booger. Vince McMahon has a rather sick sense of humor. Batroc is again treated like a joke, as he leaps out of the building, at the start of the issue. Why he doesn't kill or at least rough up Ward Meachum, for reneging on his fee, I don't know. Richard Burton wouldn't have done that. (see the ending of The Wild Geese).
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 14, 2019 15:17:48 GMT -5
Marvel Spotlight #20Creative Team: Steve Gerber-writer, Sal Buscema-pencils, Al McWilliams-inks, John Costanza-letters, George Roussos-colors, Len Wein-edits. Well, Gene Colan didn't last long. Synopsis: Gerber has been playing with a tarot deck... Gateway U student Christine Sandt receives a Death card in the mail, with an invitation from Madame Swabada to read her fortune. She consults Dr Reynolds and Daimon, who go with her and demand an explanation. Madame S rebukes daimon for not knowing that the Death Card signifies change, not actual death and then proceeds to do a reading for everyone., which of course, signifies doom and evil, with one of Gerbers whole pages of text, followed by the tarot pattern... Daimon throws a hissy fit and transforms, then blasts fire at Madame S, though she is fine. he gets all demonic, then woozy and they leave, only to be attacked by a dog, who turns into a rabid wolf, outside the storefront. Daimon forks up the poor little pooch and they move on, continuing to run into scenes out of the tarot reading, culminating in a battle with the Legion of Nihilists (the guys with the Roman fixation, from previous issues) and Daimon appears to be dying, by the end. Thoughts: Well, this is scarier than the previous issues; but, the tarot reading sequence is a slog to get through. For one thing, white text on a black background doesn't reproduce well, in 1970s comics. For another, Gerber does one of his patented info dumps and its pretty tedious. Sal makes it all look suitably creepy and is better matched to the material than Herb Trimpe had been. Personally, I cringe any time I see a tarot deck introduced into a story, as it is bigger nonsense than ghouls and demons and I hate seeing the con given a format, even in fiction; but, that's a personal issue.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 14, 2019 16:04:12 GMT -5
Marvel Fanfare #14Creative Team: Roger McKenzie-story, Rick Leonardi and Josef Rubinstein-art, Joe Rosen-letters, Nick Burns-colors, Al Milgrom-edits Synopsis: The story appears to come from Jarvis' diary. The Vision is moping for the absent Scarlet Witch. He goes out into the night, where he finds a wounded Wanda, and an attacking Fantastic Four. Vision is taken out by a rather nasty FF and it turns out to be a sound construct of Klaw, who is working with the Mad Thinker. We cut to the Baxter Building, where Ben and Johnny are engaging in normal shenanigans, when a booming noise puts an end to the fun. They find Sue unconscious, at the hands of the Vision. We get a lot of fighting and the Vision takes down the entire FF. He is being manipulated by the Thinker, who has him load Sue into a rocket and shoot her into space. however, the FF are standing behind them, as the rocket explodes and proceed to FF-up the crooks. Vision is with them and we learn that his memory banks self-repaired and restored his control and he set up a fake out. Thoughts: Meh....... That about sums it up. Leonardi and Rubinstein present some lively art; but, the story is just one big cliche of one hero manipulated into attacking another. Klaw, who was a scientist, is portrayed as a brainless thug. It's just a really mediocre story. The title, "Dangerous Vision," is a reference to the seminal sci-fi anthology, edited by Harlan Ellison. Too bad the righting here wasn't at that same caliber. Against Attilan"Creative Team: mary Jo Duffy-story, Alan Weiss-art, Jim Novak-letters, Lee Ellis-colors, Al Milgrom-edits Synopsis: It's Agon's Day in Attilan, home of the Inhumans, and Quicksilver is making an ass of himself. He annoys Gorgon and Karnak and walks away, when a woman, named Ozel, latches onto him. Later, an old man, who is supposed to watch over Agon's scepter, is attacked an Pietro gets the blame. This leads to lots of fighting and the exposure of the real crooks and some family bonding, at the end. Thoughts: And the whole thing is terrible. Mary Jo Duffy was a rookie and this appears to be an early story from her, possibly pulled out of inventory. She had many better pieces, at Marvel. Alan Weiss is an excellent artist but this is a mess... I'm not certain what happened here. Weiss is an artist who has done great work and I always enjoyed his stuff; but, some of it looks unfinished and some overly inked. One thing is for certain, the color work isn't doing it any favors. This illustrates the problem of Marvel Fanfare. This was supposed to be a prestige series, on higher quality paper, aimed at the collector market, using the best talent to produce the best stories, for better rates. We rarely got that and this issue could have been a forgettable issue of Marvel Spotlight or Marvel Premiere. Contrast this with DC, who were publishing Frank Miller's Ronin, the Judas Contract, and the Baxter reprint of Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson's classic Manhunter. Marvel proper was putting out Secret Wars (meh...), Tony Stark falling off the wagon, Baxter reprints of Ditko Dr Strange, Byrne FF, and the X-Men. Marvel Fanfare was pretty much a dumping ground for inventory stories, at worst, and interesting; but not groundbreaking stories, at best. Failure lies at Shooter, for not giving it the backing something like that required, Milgrom, for the use of mediocre material, and creators, for not rising to the challenge, if they were in fact paid better here. In the end, this just ends up being a filler book to help glut the spinner racks and force out the growing independents. First Comics had a one-two punch of American Flagg (the State of the Union storyline) and Jon Sable (the MIA two-parter), Eclipse was putting out Ms Tree, Capital had Badger & Nexus, and even the Archie superhero stuff was on par with this issue. Definitely not an A-List book. Thankfully, Barry Windsor-Smith is here, next issue.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 14, 2019 18:07:55 GMT -5
Personally, I cringe any time I see a tarot deck introduced into a story, as it is bigger nonsense than ghouls and demons and I hate seeing the con given a format, even in fiction; but, that's a personal issue. If you ever read Promethea, skip issue #12.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 14, 2019 18:17:34 GMT -5
Personally, I cringe any time I see a tarot deck introduced into a story, as it is bigger nonsense than ghouls and demons and I hate seeing the con given a format, even in fiction; but, that's a personal issue. If you ever read Promethea, skip issue #12. Promethea is the one ABC book I pretty much skipped, as I'm not much of a fan of supernatural characters. I did sample it a bit and have scans, to eventually read it. With Moore, there is usually enough of an interesting hook to get me past my prejudices (like the generational superheroine aspect of the character). I just haven't gotten around to it. When LOEG got into the wonky weirdness, at the end of Black Dossier, my interest dropped heavily. Thankfully, subsequent adventures were more in the vein of the first two. Personally, I'd love a nice Houdini or Houdini-esque limited series, where the character debunks all of the occult nonsense. Not gonna get much of that from Moore or Morrison, though. Probably wouldn't have as wide an audience. Chaykin might be up for something like that, though (especially since he did Batman/Houdini: The Devil's Workshop).
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Post by mikelmidnight on Feb 15, 2019 13:13:40 GMT -5
I loved Promethea but it's ... flawed. But that rant is a thread in itself.
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Post by rberman on Feb 16, 2019 5:24:03 GMT -5
If you ever read Promethea, skip issue #12. Promethea is the one ABC book I pretty much skipped, as I'm not much of a fan of supernatural characters. I did sample it a bit and have scans, to eventually read it. With Moore, there is usually enough of an interesting hook to get me past my prejudices (like the generational superheroine aspect of the character). I just haven't gotten around to it. When LOEG got into the wonky weirdness, at the end of Black Dossier, my interest dropped heavily. Thankfully, subsequent adventures were more in the vein of the first two. Personally, I'd love a nice Houdini or Houdini-esque limited series, where the character debunks all of the occult nonsense. Not gonna get much of that from Moore or Morrison, though. Probably wouldn't have as wide an audience. Chaykin might be up for something like that, though (especially since he did Batman/Houdini: The Devil's Workshop). Indeed, Morrison had Merlin (in his Welsh version, Gwydion) immolate DC’s occult debunker Terry Thirteen in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #1. That will teach him to disbelieve in magic!
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 16, 2019 11:34:27 GMT -5
Promethea is the one ABC book I pretty much skipped, as I'm not much of a fan of supernatural characters. I did sample it a bit and have scans, to eventually read it. With Moore, there is usually enough of an interesting hook to get me past my prejudices (like the generational superheroine aspect of the character). I just haven't gotten around to it. When LOEG got into the wonky weirdness, at the end of Black Dossier, my interest dropped heavily. Thankfully, subsequent adventures were more in the vein of the first two. Personally, I'd love a nice Houdini or Houdini-esque limited series, where the character debunks all of the occult nonsense. Not gonna get much of that from Moore or Morrison, though. Probably wouldn't have as wide an audience. Chaykin might be up for something like that, though (especially since he did Batman/Houdini: The Devil's Workshop). Indeed, Morrison had Merlin (in his Welsh version, Gwydion) immolate DC’s occult debunker Terry Thirteen in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #1. That will teach him to disbelieve in magic! Why am I not surprised?
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 19, 2019 10:06:26 GMT -5
I think of Iron Fist as the Americanized version of Chinese martial arts movies. Where Shang Chi was the Master of more traditional Kung Fu stylings, Iron Fist struck me as being more in the flamboyant Superhero aspect. Chi was in the real world dirty covert ops/spy world and Fist was hanging with the capes and cowl crowd. So as long as the fights were interesting they didn't have to "ring true" to the martial arts. Byrne coming along as artist in a short while reinforces that viewpoint Of Fist's world. I'm merely highlighting how little anyone in comics knew about martial arts, at the time. Larry Hama studied Japanese arts; mainly judo, kyudo (archery) and iado (the drawing of the sword). These are all arts of the samurai. The sequences that Hama drew, with the ninja, showcased these well, as the sword handling is textbook. His Iron Fist is dynamic; but, his forms are a mix of karate and comic book. I'm pretty sure one of the artists on the Karate Kid series (either Ric Estrada or Joe Staton, or maybe both) had studied martial arts, for what it's worth.
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